There’s a feeling of inevitability about Ole losing his job

Lebowski

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I don't think the club has given the manager ALL the tools he needs (or wants). I also think that no manager in the world gets all the tools he needs all the time. You just have to work with what you have got - and Solskjaer has been given plenty. In previous windows, certainly, but he was also given potentially good additions this summer as well, even though it was nowhere near a perfect window.

Part of the praise Solskjaer has been given is due to the young squad he built. And the thing about a young squad is that with proper coaching, you'd expect it to improve within, whether you sign new players or not. So the idea we can't go forward because we signed 'only' VDB, Telles and Cavani is just wrong.

For me it seems like the only way for Solskjaer to succeed is if you provide him with the perfect squad, full of expensive first-team players and backups. That's just not going to happen.
Fair enough.

I agree that no manager is given everything he needs and wants, but for me this summer represents a big step backwards in terms of recruitment and off the field distractions, and I think he has a right to feel aggrieved that the momentum the team built up since lockdown has been squandered by the same issues that we've seen hamstring every manager we've had since Fergie.

For me, Ole might not be the manager to win titles with United, but I think there are far more critical problems at the club and I like that he's assembled a younger, more attacking United side that is a lot easier to like than any I can remember in previous years.


If you think that the manager is the main thing that's holding us back then I fully understand why you want him gone.

I just don't see any other manager doing much better given what I perceive as insurmountable structural issues with the way the club is run, so I'm happy to have a coach who bleeds red and appears to be far more concerned with what's best for United rather than his own ego.
 

Amir

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If you think that the manager is the main thing that's holding us back then I fully understand why you want him gone.
I firmly believe a top class coach could get us to the highest places in English and European football, despite our other handicaps.

I firmly believe Solskjaer couldn't do it no matter who the owners or the CEO are.
 

RollieOle

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I firmly believe a top class coach could get us to the highest places in English and European football, despite our other handicaps.

I firmly believe Solskjaer couldn't do it no matter who the owners or the CEO are.
Like a Jose Mourinho or a Louis Van Gaal?
 

lysglimt

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Are those two are the only top coaches in the world?
Let us put it like this - which available managers would in your opinion clearly improve United without a doubt ?
 

Lebowski

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I firmly believe a top class coach could get us to the highest places in English and European football, despite our other handicaps.

I firmly believe Solskjaer couldn't do it no matter who the owners or the CEO are.
Yeah, this is our main difference of opinions.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that another manager would cause a massive upturn in fortune or expectation, and I don't think that Klopp, Pep or Fergie would have had us finishing above third last season. I also have no belief that the people who have hired the 'wrong' manager 4 times running would get the next appointment right anyway, and I think it's far more likely that the recent managerial cycle would continue - honeymoon period, big spending for a year, lack of ambition when 4th is achieved, stagnation, calls for a new manager.

In a way as much as I would hate to see Ole get sacked unceremoniously, I sort of hope your assessment is right because it's a lot easier to fix that problem than problems that run deeper than the manager.
 

Amir

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I don't see any evidence to suggest that another manager would cause a massive upturn in fortune or expectation, and I don't think that Klopp, Pep or Fergie would have had us finishing above third last season. I also have no belief that the people who have hired the 'wrong' manager 4 times running would get the next appointment right anyway, and I think it's far more likely that the recent managerial cycle would continue - honeymoon period, big spending for a year, lack of ambition when 4th is achieved, stagnation, calls for a new manager.
Actually, finishing above City last season wasn't that impossible as they only got 81 points. But obviously no manager would have taken us above Liverpool, for instance, as that would have required around 100 points. It would take a miracle worker to do that.

Thing is, I'm not looking for a miracle worker - someone who would have come in and made a huge difference last season. I'm looking for a top class manager who wouldn't do a partially good, partially not so good, job like Solskjaer. We need more than that. Settling on Solskjaer just because of fears another manager might be worse, for me also means settling on Manchester United and lowering the bar and expectations.
 

reelworld

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Let us put it like this - which available managers would in your opinion clearly improve United without a doubt ?
I'm in the Ole in camp mate. But refuting the logic of a top experienced manager could improve us, by mentioning our last two managers is a bad argument. It's like not wanting Messi because Heinze and Di Maria is not working for us.
 

Stretender

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Yeah, this is our main difference of opinions.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that another manager would cause a massive upturn in fortune or expectation, and I don't think that Klopp, Pep or Fergie would have had us finishing above third last season. I also have no belief that the people who have hired the 'wrong' manager 4 times running would get the next appointment right anyway, and I think it's far more likely that the recent managerial cycle would continue - honeymoon period, big spending for a year, lack of ambition when 4th is achieved, stagnation, calls for a new manager.

In a way as much as I would hate to see Ole get sacked unceremoniously, I sort of hope your assessment is right because it's a lot easier to fix that problem than problems that run deeper than the manager.
Ancelotti would improve us massively.

He is a decorated manager and am sure players respect what he says.

He clearly has improved Calvert Lewin and he has signed good players in their actual positions.
 

treble_winner

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Ancelotti would improve us massively.

He is a decorated manager and am sure players respect what he says.

He clearly has improved Calvert Lewin and he has signed good players in their actual positions.
Why did Ancelotti got fired from Real Madrid and Bayern Munich though? He is supposed to be a master at being likable, making both players and board like him. Yet he get fired from the Madrid job. And the less we say about his Bayern stint, the better (Although Bayern Munich always dominates the Bundesliga). So the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.
 

theklr

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Why did Ancelotti got fired from Real Madrid and Bayern Munich though? He is supposed to be a master at being likable, making both players and board like him. Yet he get fired from the Madrid job. And the less we say about his Bayern stint, the better (Although Bayern Munich always dominates the Bundesliga). So the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.
According to the athletic article a while ago his good chemistry with the players means he doesnt want to do the necessary tough choices which inevitably leads to complancecy. Sound similar to Ole tbh.
 

Red Comet

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He clearly has improved Calvert Lewin and he has signed good players in their actual positions.
So has Ole. He improved our attackers and they had one of their most productive seasons in recent years. Fred looked a different player from the one who at the start of last season was looking completely lost, and so has McTerminator improved. Out of Ole's signings from last seasons, only Daniel James seems suspected but then again he was signed as a backup player.
 

georgipep

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According to the athletic article a while ago his good chemistry with the players means he doesnt want to do the necessary tough choices which inevitably leads to complancecy. Sound similar to Ole tbh.
Tough choices like getting rid of several of our most expensive players? Hmmm...
 

Grylte

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Not read the whole thread, pretty much just the headline, to be fair, but i feel the opposite.
I feel he's going to get the chance to build, just look at all the young talents that's been brought in.

I don't feel it's as inevitable as it was for our previous managers.
 

Bobcat

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Actually, finishing above City last season wasn't that impossible as they only got 81 points. But obviously no manager would have taken us above Liverpool, for instance, as that would have required around 100 points. It would take a miracle worker to do that.

Thing is, I'm not looking for a miracle worker - someone who would have come in and made a huge difference last season. I'm looking for a top class manager who wouldn't do a partially good, partially not so good, job like Solskjaer. We need more than that. Settling on Solskjaer just because of fears another manager might be worse, for me also means settling on Manchester United and lowering the bar and expectations.
I think the key difference between the two camps is how they view potential replacements. One side is confident that Poch or Nagelsmann would do better where as the other side is not that confident and there really is no right or wrong answer since its all conjecture really.
 

Leftback99

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Ancelotti would improve us massively.

He is a decorated manager and am sure players respect what he says.

He clearly has improved Calvert Lewin and he has signed good players in their actual positions.
There wasn't many saying that at the end of last season. He's the latest flavour of the month. This season's Rodgers.
 

Amir

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I think the key difference between the two camps is how they view potential replacements. One side is confident that Poch or Nagelsmann would do better where as the other side is not that confident and there really is no right or wrong answer since its all conjecture really.
Obviously there are no sure things when it comes to managers. For me it simply comes to courage and settling the bar higher. We've got a decent thing going with Solskjaer, but I believe it will always be limited.
 

Tom Cato

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Like managers who are not clearly past their prime.
Managers aren't horses that gets put to pasture. "past their prime" is a very, very uselss anecdote for personell whose primary tool in their job is their brain.

You know, on occasion we really have to admit that the players you have available actually make a difference for your results. If they aren't that important then we might as well just stop having transfer windows.
 

Amir

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Managers aren't horses that gets put to pasture. "past their prime" is a very, very uselss anecdote for personell whose primary tool in their job is their brain.
Fine. Manager who were left behind, is that good enough?

You know, on occasion we really have to admit that the players you have available actually make a difference for your results. If they aren't that important then we might as well just stop having transfer windows.
Oh, absolutely. But since United managers have more control over what players are brought in than the average coach in the bigger clubs, if the wrong players are bought or the wrong players are kept, it still comes back to the manager.
 

Andy_Cole

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There wasn't many saying that at the end of last season. He's the latest flavour of the month. This season's Rodgers.
Ancelotti, 3 x CL winner, PL winner, Serie A winner, Ligue 1 winner, Bundesliga winner, FA cup winner, Copa Del Rey winner, Coppa Italia Winner, plus all the lesser trophies like the Fifa World Cup, Super Cup.

Yup sounds like a flavour of the month! He's a class manager and I was surprised Everton got him. Not saying we should have got him as there are other candidates too. But he could have done really well here.
 

Lebowski

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Actually, finishing above City last season wasn't that impossible as they only got 81 points. But obviously no manager would have taken us above Liverpool, for instance, as that would have required around 100 points. It would take a miracle worker to do that.

Thing is, I'm not looking for a miracle worker - someone who would have come in and made a huge difference last season. I'm looking for a top class manager who wouldn't do a partially good, partially not so good, job like Solskjaer. We need more than that. Settling on Solskjaer just because of fears another manager might be worse, for me also means settling on Manchester United and lowering the bar and expectations.
I take your point regarding city's points total but I still think finishing second would have required a miracle worker such was our disadvantage to them in terms of player quality, squad depth, injuries etc. Perhaps if we'd signed Bruno in the summer and had him for the whole season, but again that goes back to structural not managerial issues as I'm sure Solksjaer would have loved to have bought him in the summer.

Anyway I don't think we'll agree on whether another decent manager would be getting considerably more of a tune out of our players than Ole, so I will pose a related hypothetical question if you don't mind.

You say that all it would take is a competent top class manager to come into the club and get far more out of the existing players than Ole is capable of and return expectations to what they should be for a club of our stature. Do you have confidence in our board finding and appointing such a candidate and, if you do not, do you think the potential reward is worth the risk of them getting it wrong?

You see what I'm not so subtly getting at I'm sure- given the total lack of continuity planning and the awful record at picking managers, do you think the current trajectory with Ole warrants pushing the big red button and starting the merry go round again with another manager?
 

HarryRedCrumbs

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Anyone else getting this? I feel like he’s doomed this season, I felt eerily similar during the summer of 2018 with Jose. It just feels like the players, the board, the media & even a large section of the fans have given up on him. We saw something identical with Jose, he got us a good league finish, didn’t get the players he wanted, sacked by Christmas. This whole pre season & subsequent start has dejavu written all over it.

No.

Thanks for the negative atmosphere.
 

WR10

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Not a chance in hell. United share price is in free fall. Last thing they need is uncertainty and a new manager that will demand signings (expenditure)
 

Bebestation

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Pep has an inevitability that he will lose his job one day and so does Klopp.

Maybe this year, next year, maybe in the in the next 10 years but ultimately nothing in the world is permanent.
 

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Carlo was asked by SAF in 2013 but he had already agreed to Real Madrid
 

Amir

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You say that all it would take is a competent top class manager to come into the club and get far more out of the existing players than Ole is capable of and return expectations to what they should be for a club of our stature. Do you have confidence in our board finding and appointing such a candidate and, if you do not, do you think the potential reward is worth the risk of them getting it wrong?

You see what I'm not so subtly getting at I'm sure- given the total lack of continuity planning and the awful record at picking managers, do you think the current trajectory with Ole warrants pushing the big red button and starting the merry go round again with another manager?
I don't have much confidence in our board getting it right, and it should be pointed out that there's no such thing as a club that gets every appointment right. Even the best can be hit and miss. Even an appointment that is perfectly logical can fail.

Anyhow, along with the fact I hope we've learned something from our previous appointments, my point is simple: I don't see much of a risk in changing the manager. We should be aiming for the highest levels of English and European football, and I don't believe Solskjaer can get us there. I'm not going to settle for a nice team that plays good football here and there, and battles for top 4 regularly. I'd much rather take a risk with someone else and aim higher. What we have to lose is pointless for me, because what we might be losing if we can it wrong isn't something worth remembering anyway.
 

redmanx

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Ancelotti, 3 x CL winner, PL winner, Serie A winner, Ligue 1 winner, Bundesliga winner, FA cup winner, Copa Del Rey winner, Coppa Italia Winner, plus all the lesser trophies like the Fifa World Cup, Super Cup.

Yup sounds like a flavour of the month! He's a class manager and I was surprised Everton got him. Not saying we should have got him as there are other candidates too. But he could have done really well here.
There aren't that many top, top quality managers and coaches around at this time; Guardiola, Klopp, Zidane, Simeone, Deschamps, Martino, Conte, Luxemburgo, Bielsa, Hitzfeld and Bianchi are probably the best at this time, along with Ancelotti and Mourinho who both have incredible records; but which of these, if any, would go to United? Ancelotti might if things dont go right with Everton, but like LVG he'll only be a stop gap and we'll soon be looking for somebody to replace him. If Ole is allowed to get on with the job and properly supported by everybody he can give us success.
 

glazed

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I firmly believe a top class coach could get us to the highest places in English and European football, despite our other handicaps.

I firmly believe Solskjaer couldn't do it no matter who the owners or the CEO are.
You talk like the two are completely unconnected but they are the same phenomenon seen from different angles. A top class coach would not work under Woodward - he would have better options. And if we had good owners, Ole wouldn't be manager anyway.
 

Amir

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You talk like the two are completely unconnected but they are the same phenomenon seen from different angles. A top class coach would not work under Woodward - he would have better options. And if we had good owners, Ole wouldn't be manager anyway.
You know, over the years I've seen big clubs in England and abroad sack managers left, right and center, make transfer decisions over their heads and basically treat them like utter crap. And for a time I thought "there's no way big coaches will be going to those clubs anymore". Of course, they did. Some of them even came back for a second stint at the same club.

Because big coaches want to work for big clubs. They want to be able to challenge for honours, to spend money, to work with the best players, and there are few clubs that will offer them that. We are one of them. And even if Jurgen Klopp rejected us (and Real Madrid), most would jump at the chance to change our fortunes.

Our board isn't great, but I believe it's main fault - by FAR - is not being able to identify the right manager at the right time. Four failed appointment in a row is evidence of that. At the same time, I don't think United is a bad place to work at at all. Managers have been given big money, have been allowed to bring in the players of their choosing and shape the squad and style of play as they want - even if they can't get every player they want. No manager does, anywhere in the world.
 

Lebowski

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I don't have much confidence in our board getting it right, and it should be pointed out that there's no such thing as a club that gets every appointment right. Even the best can be hit and miss. Even an appointment that is perfectly logical can fail.

Anyhow, along with the fact I hope we've learned something from our previous appointments, my point is simple: I don't see much of a risk in changing the manager. We should be aiming for the highest levels of English and European football, and I don't believe Solskjaer can get us there. I'm not going to settle for a nice team that plays good football here and there, and battles for top 4 regularly. I'd much rather take a risk with someone else and aim higher. What we have to lose is pointless for me, because what we might be losing if we can it wrong isn't something worth remembering anyway.
I think that's all completely reasonable.

The only thing I'd add is that I believe it's being realistic to lower expectations, especially now that multiple attempts at a quick fix and a swift return to the top have failed. I admire you for not letting your expectations fall, but I fear the board do not share your expectations of challenging for titles. And I think that's ultimately what is going to hold us back regardless of who the manager is.

Lastly, I think the task of hiring the next manager is actually made harder due to our recent failures in past recruitment, not easier. Top managers who can afford to be choosy and wait for the right offer will look at the United job as a poisoned chalice and will presumably have real concerns about the way the club is run.

That leads us back to where I currently am regarding Ole. If we had a DOF and ambitious owners who decided he wasn't the right man for this stage of the project and had a more suitable candidate vetted and ready to go, I wouldn't be heartbroken if he was sacked. However, the prospect of Woodward and Joel Glazer pulling the plug on yet another failed attempt and starting the managerial merry go round over again is just not something I can countenance, and its going to take a lot more than Ole delivering largely average results to convince me that we'd be better served by getting rid.
 

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I'd love to see this thread if we beat PSG tonight. We're getting back to match fitness (a hugely underrated factor). Let's see how this month pans out in full. Ole is in place anyway, might as well support him as good fans. If it goes south, it'll be clear to all and sundry...
 

Amir

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Lastly, I think the task of hiring the next manager is actually made harder due to our recent failures in past recruitment, not easier. Top managers who can afford to be choosy and wait for the right offer will look at the United job as a poisoned chalice and will presumably have real concerns about the way the club is run.
I've mentioned it in another thread: Over the years I've seen clubs treat managers like dirt, sack them on a regular basis, make decisions over their heads, etc. And for a while I thought that there was no way those clubs would still be able to get the best managers. They did. Not only that, some of the ones they sacked - came back later on.

We're not a bad club for a manager at all. We give more time than anyone, we give quite a bit of control and transfer money. A good manager who believes in himself and his abilities would not be 'choosy' when one of the biggest jobs in the world is offered to him.
 

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I've mentioned it in another thread: Over the years I've seen clubs treat managers like dirt, sack them on a regular basis, make decisions over their heads, etc. And for a while I thought that there was no way those clubs would still be able to get the best managers. They did. Not only that, some of the ones they sacked - came back later on.

We're not a bad club for a manager at all. We give more time than anyone, we give quite a bit of control and transfer money. A good manager who believes in himself and his abilities would not be 'choosy' when one of the biggest jobs in the world is offered to him.
Tell that to David Moyes ;)

Otherwise bang on the money.
 

Icemav

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Ancelotti, 3 x CL winner, PL winner, Serie A winner, Ligue 1 winner, Bundesliga winner, FA cup winner, Copa Del Rey winner, Coppa Italia Winner, plus all the lesser trophies like the Fifa World Cup, Super Cup.

Yup sounds like a flavour of the month! He's a class manager and I was surprised Everton got him. Not saying we should have got him as there are other candidates too. But he could have done really well here.
I am not sure about now, but he would have been a superb transition manager for us. Certainly a lot better than Moyes.
 

TrustInOle

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Nope. Our form will turn good soon, tonight could even be he catalyst. Other than Everton, everyone has had bumps at the start of the season. In my opinion, it doesn't surprise me either, as they have recruited the smartest during the window.
 

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I think a combination of staying away from the Caf and ignoring social media has made be feel oddly optimistic about United again (and the 4-1 result has helped). I may swing back to doom and gloom in 4 hours though if we get a thrashing against PSG.

Here is hoping that the team show some real progress from the PSG game 2 years ago - which was clearly a smash and grab job - aided by what was a very fortuitous penalty awarded to us.