I can definitely see where you're coming from but I'd still definitely rather finish 3rd. It makes such a huge difference. It means you can plan both financially and player acquisition wise knowing you're definitely in the CL for the season. For us as a club, it would be a good sign of progress to finish in the top3 again for 2 seasons in a row considering ourn league performances have historically not been much to write about. And knowing us, we'd probably end up getting knocked out in the qualifiers anyway!
Top 4 race 2016/17
- Thread starter Yorkeontop
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Makes sense! You're absolutely right, finishing 3rd is the lower-variance option so it is probably more sensible all things considered. Looking around Europe at the moment, there are some scary potential teams that could be drawn there as well-Atletico Madrid, Dortmund, PSG, and Napoli all conceivably could have to go through that qualifying round
People convinced Arsenal in top 4 just because it's "what they do" is such a childish thought process. They aren't getting top 4 as the pressure will never be off, they look completely lost and leaderless. They don't ever look likely of beating any team they play, they're massively overrated.
That's the same man who said that Conte should have been hired as Jose's assistant after his failure with Italy last Euro, that 12 points below Chelsea at the moment is only a slim gap and Jose can till give United the title, and that all Chelsea this season success must thank Jose's foundation, despite of Conte's new formation and series of changes in his squad. He apparently blamed Chelsea for letting Lukaku, Bruyne go and praised Jose for giving Rashford a chance but he didn't notice that Jose was the man who let Bruyne and Lukaku left Chelsea years ago and Van Gaal - not Jose - was the man who gave Rashford a chance at Old Trafford first.
So, you should either ignore his posts or accept the fact that his love for Jose is "as deep as an ocean". I have followed Jose for 14 years, supporting his Inter, Real sides (I just can't support United because of recent domestic rivalry) after he left Chelsea but I have to admit I am not able to love him that deep.
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Go back to the topic, I think Man City, Spurs, United and Chelsea will be in top 4 at the end of this season.
oops. double post, sorry.
Wenger has never finished outside the Top 4. This season won't be different. Expect the likes of Ozil & Giroud to turn it on eventually.
I agree. I think they're in real danger of missing out.
The exact thought process I'm talking about.
I'm gonna go find out how much the bookies give it, because I got a strong feeling that they won't be in it this time and I want to put some money behind it. Spurs are looking far more clinical than last year against the small teams and have easier fixtures in the run in. Then there's us being in better form and the better team I believe. I reckon City will be in there too.
It would also be poetic if they did finish 4th, but we end up winning the EL and they miss out on CL because of that. I wouldn't mind my bet not paying off at all in that scenario
Indeed, overtaking Liverpool is no big deal at all. But it would be wonderful to stick it in the faces of the unbearable scouse fans who for months tormented us and proclaimed themselves as champions elect. When I pointed out that their defence was shambolic, they claimed that it was in fact equal with ours, because at the time they had conceded only 2 goals more than us. Well I guess quality does catch up with you.
Liverpool's "demise" actually began in late December and it is no surprise at all to anyone except Liverpool fans.
Even Carragher has branded them a disgrace and rightfully so. Joke of a club, living in the past, totally deluded about their place in the footballing world today. Very soon Everton will overtake them.
Not sure why everyone expects Chelsea to be sure top 4. As "treble winner" tells us they are about to implode (again and again).
The 4th place only misses out on CL if and only if Man Utd wins the EL AND Leicester/City wins the CL.I'm gonna go find out how much the bookies give it, because I got a strong feeling that they won't be in it this time and I want to put some money behind it. Spurs are looking far more clinical than last year against the small teams and have easier fixtures in the run in. Then there's us being in better form and the better team I believe. I reckon City will be in there too.
It would also be poetic if they did finish 4th, but we end up winning the EL and they miss out on CL because of that. I wouldn't mind my bet not paying off at all in that scenario
Big big few weeks coming up for City. If they manage to win 3 or 4 of those gsmes then fair play to them, really hope we can pick up maximum points or close to it and avoid stupid draws.
Que? Why would Leicester winning the CL have anything to do with it? UEFA only accepts a set number entries per country for the CL. If United finish 5th and win the Europa League my understanding is the 4th team drops out. Otherwise there would be 5 EPL teams in the CL. I don't think UEFA would allow that.
Yep. Conversely, if they drop points against Sunderland or Stoke, then they will be in deep crap.
Stoke always seem to give City a game of it and maybe Moyes might do us a favour for once too lol
That's been changed since Spurs were booted. Five teams from a single country is now allowed, Europa league winner comes in during the fourth round qualifying stage along with whoever finishes fourth in England.
They are allowed a maximum of 5 teams in the champions league next year. If we win the Europa league and finish 5th then 5 teams qualify. Same if City or Leicester were to win the CL and not get top 4, the top 4 and the CL winner eould qualify. The only way anyone loses out on a place in the Champions League is if the winners of the CL and the Europa League both finish outside the top 4, say for we come 6th and win Europa and City come 5th and win the CL, then the team in 4th will miss out. It's very very unlikely to be fair.
I thought the Europa League winner got straight into the group stages?
Ah shit. However funny it would be for Arsenal to finish 4th and get booted, I think City winning the CL (no way Leicester win it) would not be a good trade off.
Nope they go into the qualifying stage just before the group stages. The previous Champions League winner goes straight into the group stage.
EDIT: All of the above is technically correct but not really true in practice. The Europa league winners only go into qualifying if the previous Champions League winners fail to qualify for the Champions League via their domestic performance. Sorry for any confusion everyone, in particular @Eire Red United
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What about if they've already qualified for the group stage?
Actually, I've got this wrong. The Europa league winner DOES go straight into the group stage assuming the previous Champions League winner has qualified for the Champions League based on their league performance. Obviously this is almost always the case, my mistake for misreading the rules!
Yeah I thought that was the case as Sevilla went straight to group stage
Yep, apologies for getting that wrong, it's not strictly the case always as there are contingencies in case the winner doesn't qualify, which is what misled me. My mistake!
How can we get spanked in the CL every year when we have qualified twice? First time with a quite impressive campaign. Feel free to critisize Spurs for their bad CL campaign, but 1 does not equal 'year in year out'.
And it's not like City, Chelsea and yourself get it right every year either. In fact, English teams have been underwhelming in Europe for some time without Spurs' help.
If someone else wants CL they should show they are good enough by finishing above us in the league.
You'll shit the bed in the CL next year if you get in. You don't have Bale beating down a drunk post Mourinho Inter Milan anymore. You even got knocked out by Gent in the EL ffs. I hope the top 4 ends up as Chelsea, City, United & Liverpool. Liverpool may be wobbly atm but at least they know how to get up for Europe.
I see, so because Spurs are Spurs they will lose? That's your argument? Can't argue with that.
Anyway, we also beat AC Milan
Spurs don't have the winning mentality. Chelsea does, Man Utd does, but Spurs doesn't. They can't elevate them selves for the big games like the way Soton did last weekend against us. They totally didn't deserve to loose to say the least and as far as I remember, all the pundits and media were saying United will walk it. Well they didn't and that's not because United are a bad team, that's b/c Soton played their best game of the season against us.I see, so because Spurs are Spurs they will lose? That's your argument? Can't argue with that.
Anyway, we also beat AC Milan
Spurs are GREAT in England, but they're pretty bad in Europe. They beat the all mighty Pep's Man City team when everyone thought Man City already won the league after 10 games and they stopped Chelsea's winning streak. But in Europe for some weird reason they never perform. Could it be because they lack a strong squad? Idk, maybe..
Historically Chelsea and Manchester United have won lots of stuff, but also had a much much much stronger squad than Spurs. And yeah, winning the FA cup last year, and the League cup this year is good, compared to the level you have played at. However, I think it's unfair to level this criticism based on one bad European run with this current group of players and manager who have seen constant improvement.
If we analyse this year, we lost / drew a few games where we were the better team, and based on overall play we shouldn't have been out. But truth is, we didn't perform where it mattered, in front of goal. It should also be said that this was at the time when we had lots of injuries, and weren't playing well in the league either. Regarding Gent, we absolutely dominated them in both legs, even with 10 men, I can't believe they won on away goals, but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm not trying to make excuses here; but throwing in such intangibles as 'winning mentality' based on very little evidence just seems lazy to me.
Guess time will tell
I remain an optimist and hope for a top 3 finish, and we're not far away from a FA cup final either. Our season can still be very good.
Agree with everything you saidHistorically Chelsea and Manchester United have won lots of stuff, but also had a much much much stronger squad than Spurs. And yeah, winning the FA cup last year, and the League cup this year is good, compared to the level you have played at. However, I think it's unfair to level this criticism based on one bad European run with this current group of players and manager who have seen constant improvement.
If we analyse this year, we lost / drew a few games where we were the better team, and based on overall play we shouldn't have been out. But truth is, we didn't perform where it mattered, in front of goal. It should also be said that this was at the time when we had lots of injuries, and weren't playing well in the league either. Regarding Gent, we absolutely dominated them in both legs, even with 10 men, I can't believe they won on away goals, but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm not trying to make excuses here; but throwing in such intangibles as 'winning mentality' based on very little evidence just seems lazy to me.
Guess time will tell
I remain an optimist and hope for a top 3 finish, and we're not far away from a FA cup final either. Our season can still be very good.
I personally rate Spurs more than Arsenal and Liverpool at this very moment (not historically) and I would put them on the same level as City.
Agree with everything you said
I personally rate Spurs more than Arsenal and Liverpool at this very moment (not historically) and I would put them on the same level as City.
Finishing above Arsenal would make me happy, and with your current form this might mean that they finish 5th. And if they do I think they might find it difficult to bounce back, especially if Sanchez leaves. Gonna be an interesting run in!
You don't get it. Even in the Europa League, Spurs have been toothless. It's not just about the CL. When we got knocked out of the group stages of the CL in 12/13 and got into the Europa League, we consoled ourselves by winning the damn thing. Spurs keep getting kicked out of the EL by lightweight teams. As I said, I'm not judging based off this season's CL alone. I'm judging based on the last 5 or 6 years of Spurs being in Europe. You've had just one good run.Historically Chelsea and Manchester United have won lots of stuff, but also had a much much much stronger squad than Spurs. And yeah, winning the FA cup last year, and the League cup this year is good, compared to the level you have played at. However, I think it's unfair to level this criticism based on one bad European run with this current group of players and manager who have seen constant improvement.
If we analyse this year, we lost / drew a few games where we were the better team, and based on overall play we shouldn't have been out. But truth is, we didn't perform where it mattered, in front of goal. It should also be said that this was at the time when we had lots of injuries, and weren't playing well in the league either. Regarding Gent, we absolutely dominated them in both legs, even with 10 men, I can't believe they won on away goals, but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm not trying to make excuses here; but throwing in such intangibles as 'winning mentality' based on very little evidence just seems lazy to me.
Guess time will tell
I remain an optimist and hope for a top 3 finish, and we're not far away from a FA cup final either. Our season can still be very good.
The EL have (often wrongly in my opinion) been a competition to play reserves / weakened teams while the focus was on the league. This season was different, but generally the EL has not been a priority (last season Poch thought we could catch Leicester and played a weak team against Dortmund). Sure, European form is relevant to a degree, but what I'm saying is that this group of players and manager have been continuing to improve, it's not like City got it right straight away, or Fergie for that matter.
Mistakes were made, that does not mean that they will necessarily continue to happen. Before Pochettino we were an incredible flaky team, we lacked that grit and determination to see out results, and could suddenly concede 3 goals in 10 minutes. We went from that to a situation where we arguably have the best defense in the league. Our squad depth is also improving, last year our depth was almost non-existent, now we have players such as Son, Winks(and Lamela when fit) outside the current starting 11.
What I am saying is that Rome wasn't built overnight, and stating that Spurs (who only recently have been breaking into the top 4, with a total of 2 CL runs, and without the financial power to buy established stars) are doomed to never improve on this aspect because we are Spurs is quite frankly lazy. If we stagnate and make the same mistakes again and again, sure, then that criticism is fair, but it's just too early to draw conclusions on winning mentality or European form imo.
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Spurs have actually imploded in the Europa league last 3-4 seasons. They have always had a squad for going into the deep stages if Europa...atleast till semis. But, the team have never shown the mentality. Ponch has not improved the mentality one bit in the European games. I agree Europa league is for rotation but that does not mean you change the whole playing 11 which Ponch actually does. He treats Europa worse than Leauge cup too. Just look at Chelsea and learn how to actually win the Europa.
PS - You guys were down to 10 men due to Alli's own fault. He is like a caged animal in decisive games and has a nasty streak.
Not this season though as Leicester will win the CL
They have never failed to qualify and people have been saying that for nearly 20 years so its understandable people think like that.
They should beat Arse and probably liverpool.
That's exactly the best option for English clubs to be competitive again in Champions League.