I think this post reveals something important, It seems that most of you, who see no problems with certain terms used by transphobes, have never sat down with a transgender woman and talked to her about transgender issues. It's all mechanical and about rules, never about human beings trying to understand each other. Give it a try, maybe you'd learn a thing or two.
Transgender Athletes
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Just because it's a language used by people we don't like doesn't mean it invalidates points or or erases debates on the subject. I can go through a whole lot of the glazers selling thread and be able to make a case for all arguments. Brexit too. The gray scale is incredible and not helped by people drawing lines of associative exclusion of talk. Labelling people from open discussion of the subject due to objectifying of what they're saying creates tribal stances.
Any way I want everyone to disagree.
It’s a biological male beating a woman to the point where her skull is fractured. Stay classy.
Yeah because calling someone cis male has a long history of being used by people who want to remove or refuse rights to a group of people.
It's like words have meanings and context.
What are you supposed to call us then? Can we decide what we want to be called or are others going to decide that for us as well?
You asked me a hypothetical about a conversation that would literally only arise if I was having to explain to an athlete why I have to classify them as what they were born as in my roster report to the state high school league, so I gave you the answer that I would have to give.
I have no issue whatsoever with calling a student/athlete by their chosen name and pronouns, but when it comes to the rules that govern competition, I have to go by what they are biologically. Simple as.
I have not argued that it invalidates any points, but if you enter a discussion using language you know is used by transphobes, even if you aren't one, you can understand why the other person might not take you seriously, right?
First hand experience doesn't count
Literally only arise in that context? Have you ever had a conversation about transgender issues with a transgender woman? Over a cup of coffee or something? That's literally a different possible context.
You love making assumptions, don’t you?
I’ve never asked any of my trans students or athletes to coffee, sorry. That would be quite strange.
Going by your posts, it seems like a fair one.
I'm sure there are transgender women in the world who are not your students or your athletes.
I don’t give a feck about any ‘long history’. I’m a male, and I object to being referred to as a ‘something’ male in reference to my sex/gender. I’m not the only person who has such an objection, but I know that nobody cares.
I'm fairly certain no one has ever used the terms cis woman or biological woman to insult you. But a lot of people use the term biological man to insult transgender women, so surely you can see the difference between the two terms in certain contexts.
Is calling a trans woman a ‘trans woman’ acceptable or not?
And many, like in the context of this thread, are using the term to differentiate between two different groups of people in a sporting context.
Regardless of how many fecks you give, history exists and you can't ignore it.
And now I'm curious, how often do people use the term biological male or cis man to insult you? You seem very angry, it must be a regular occurrence.
The last word of my post was contexts.
What i replied to the above quote makes sense. Your post makes it look like you think we talk to someone calling them him/her.
"she tells you she doesn't like to be referred to as biological male, you keep doing it?" - i highly doubt anyone keeps using the gender in a normal conversation, you use name.
I would say the person's name, like "no Pedro, i am no going out tonight", not "no, him, i'm not going out tonight."
Since in your sentence you say "When you discuss this with a transgender woman", you'd assume you talk face to face. I've never in my life heard anyone use gender when talking directly to anyone, and i highly doubt i ever will.
So no, i'm not obtuse, deliberately or not. It fits perfectly to what you said, and if not, you worded your post wrong.
Not really, because no one's diving in with ignorant statements. Something like that would be going into an argument about race and declaring other races as inferior.
We need definitions to expand the understanding. Declaring some one trans and not a woman/male is frowned upon. Declaring someone as not a biological woman/male or born as such maybe used in statements by those who hate but can't be discounted. Without definitions of stance or debate then it kills conversation dead in its track.
We need to be able to discuss and drawing up gates of conversation by those who do want to discuss and understand from a point of care is just as wrong.
When they could easily use the term transgender. Everyone would understand and you'd avoid terms associated with transphobes.
Are you purposefully attempting to be obtuse in this thread or is being such merely second nature?
I'll assume my post was wrongly worded then and I'll try to be more clear.
Let's say you're having a chat with a transgender woman and on the TV this issue of transgender kids in sports comes up. You start talking about it and you say "I think it's unfair having biological males competing with girls". She tells you she doesn't like that term to refer to transgender girls and prefers the terms cis and transgender. Do you stick to your original sentence or do you change it to "I think it's unfair having transgender girls competing with cis girls"?
That's what my point was, maybe poorly worded. Why use a term in general conversation when that term is used in derogatory was by transphobes? Not in the sense of "hey, biological male, let's go out for a burger". Yes, I use the person's name too.
But you can easily use "transgender girl" in this context and everyone knows what it means, it means she was born as a biological male. Why not use it? Why purposefully use a term also used as an insult by transphobes?
OK, no, in general conversation, the term transgender woman is not offensive.
I feel dumb having to say something so obvious, so I assume you have some point you're trying to make and I'm missing?
You tend to get a bit wordy when answering, but the response here is what I was looking for. Thanks.
Because we don't all know the rules and we're all getting trying to get our heads around the debate. This is the first time I've literally heard that those words are insulting to a group and I mean group, not a community, that I have family members in.
The fact that we’re in this dumb world of hypotheticals where you have to ‘buy coffee to a trans person’ to prove an absolutely nonsense point just beggars belief.
I honestly have lost the point of your earlier tweets when you are trying to discuss a situation or add context, so I was clarifying if there is a suitable descriptor to use to define a trans female.
That's fair, I'm sure I've said plenty of shit before listening to transgender folks and talking to them. You live and learn.
You don't have to buy coffee to anyone, you can simply talk to a transgender friend if your struggling with something. I'm sure they'll be glad to help. My experience with transgender people is that they don't mind talking to someone who genuinely wants to know more and wants to talk in good faith and not just engaging to arrive at some weird "gotcha moment".
The fact that we’re in this dumb world of hypotheticals where you have to ‘buy coffee to a trans person’ to prove an absolutely nonsense point just beggars belief.
If you don't know transgender people then I guess it would be weird going around town inviting random strangers for coffee, but it would also explain why some people here have the opinions they have, they simply don't hang out with transgender folks.
I would never use a term others find offensive if they made me aware of it.
What i am wonder, though, is why does it always affect women? It's their sport, and now they have to accept the "cis" part being added in front of "women".
It is much more unfair to a lot of women than a very small % of trans people.
Fair enough, I've posted so much that I'm sure I've lost myself once or twice.
OK, that's good to know.
What circumstances are you thinking of? I regularly watch women's football and women's handball and I've never heard the term cis woman being used.
Yet, just because people find a wording, term or sentences offending on their terms didn't mean it should be avoided in discussion. A community can literally release a press statement on what they find offensive. Doesn't mean we have to obey it.
Of course not, I'm not proposing any laws to punish people. My original point is that if someone chooses to use those terms they know some may find offensive, it makes conversation more difficult and it's not a stretch to assume they might not be engaging in good faith.
I don’t need to hang out with a transgender person to know that such a person would be at an advantage in the sporting arena when compared to a cis woman. It’s basic science, and common sense. That’s literally what the topic is centred on.
All of this and that about coffee, and spending time with obfuscation of a very simple discussion.
Me having coffee with a trans person to understand their life story doesn’t change the basic premise I’ve mentioned above.
Edit: and let me add - the basic premise I’ve mentioned above isn’t a ‘gotcha’ moment.
They don’t use it ‘to insult’ me. They use it to label me, and it is one that I have CHOSEN to take offence to. Just as when I use the term ‘transgender woman’, it is with the intention to describe/label, not to insult, but offence is still taken. We both have the right to take offence, and mine is as valid as anyone else’s, regardless of any malicious intent or not.