Conor
Full Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2011
- Messages
- 5,645
I don't know if there is even a definitive answer to this? Do you think every trans person ever was trans from the moment they were born?Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?
g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });
I don't know if there is even a definitive answer to this? Do you think every trans person ever was trans from the moment they were born?Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?
But do you get that at some point, the child and/or the parents made the decision to change name, start puberty blockers etc? It may have seemed inevitable based on the childs dysphoria but at some point the decision was made that transition was best for the child. Other parents and children in the same situation may make a difference choice.Its unusual I know but I have two sets of friends who have had a child transition. These are 2 kids I have known since they were born, now both in their early 20s and I know this is anecdotal but for both of them it wasnt a choice, its something they had to do because of who they were as people. Its an incredibly nuanced and complex thing and having hard and fast, blanket beliefs on choice or not is pretty naive.
The conversation has stemmed from that, and is going down a different path due to @stepic's usual action of just calling everyone within a certain radius a bigot.That conversation is not about sports, it's about whether or not being trans is a choice. You read it, so you know.
If we accept that trans people are born trans, then the argument ‘they choose to transition’ doesn’t hold any water whatsoever, whether there exists some trans people who have not transitioned or not.Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.
It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. GoddamnIf we accept that trans people are born trans, then the argument ‘they choose to transition’ doesn’t hold any water whatsoever, whether there exists some trans people who have not transitioned or not.
Ok, let's:Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.
This is about identifying as trans, not about transitioning.More power to them for making that choice if it makes them more comfortable in themselves but we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify.
No, this isn't true. The accusation of bigotry came after. You know this.The conversation has stemmed from that, and is going down a different path due to @stepic's usual action of just calling everyone within a certain radius a bigot.
Directly preceded by this sentence.This is about identifying as trans, not about transitioning
So yes, “let’s”.The integrity of the sport should not be compromised to accommodate what was ultimately a choice made by that individual to transition.
I know what transitioning is. I’m not even sure you’re keeping up with the conversation anymore.It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. Goddamn
Yes, and what do you think that changes?Directly preceded by this sentence.
So yes, “let’s”.
I don't 'know this', I am taking the poster's opinion at face value, maybe I missed a sentence in one of his posts as it turned into a bit of an essay fest. I'm going to withdraw from the discussion anyway as it will go nowhere productive, as usual.No, this isn't true. The accusation of bigotry came after. You know this.
Then if you know what it is, what is your problem?I know what transitioning is. I’m not even sure you’re keeping up with the conversation anymore.
You just replied to my post where I directly quoted the guy talking about how trans people "choose to identify".I don't 'know this', I am taking the poster's opinion at face value, maybe I missed a sentence in one of his posts as it turned into a bit of an essay fest. I'm going to withdraw from the discussion anyway as it will go nowhere productive, as usual.
100%. It's only a discussion point when we get to elite competition.I'd hope that most people would consider that non-elite/youth sport should be about inclusion and socialisation.
Yes, I was explaining the potential error in my initial statement which you questioned in that post?You just replied to my post where I directly quoted the guy talking about how trans people "choose to identify".
The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.Yes, and what do you think that changes?
I strongly suspect people are largely born mentally trans but physical transition including hormone therapy is a choice, albeit a choice often made as a personal imperative as not to do so would be mentally harming.Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?
Right. And I'm letting you know that it was an error, not a potential error.Yes, I was explaining the potential error in my initial statement which you questioned in that post?
Who's choosing to identify as what, then? People either transition or they don't, so you cannot choose to identify as someone who has transitioned.The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.
If they take hormones I don't think they should be allowed to compete with women so yeah the rules would need to different depending if we're talking about a transgender man or woman.If we legislate that you have to compete as your biological birth sex or the sex you were when you went though puberty doesn't that mean that trans men who have had hormone treatment would be forced to compete in the women's comp? Or would they effectively also be banned as they would probably contravene doping regulations?
Read all of his posts in the discussion the last few pages and you’d know. He explained himself at length. But that’s not convenient for you. You’d rather try and take a sentence out of context so your tactic of throwing up the bigot card makes sense.Who's choosing to identify as what, then? People either transition or they don't, so you cannot choose to identify as someone who has transitioned.
Edit: and the one immediately following it…Competing with males may or may not affect a trans womans dysphoria. Not all trans people are dysphoric. But it is the fairest way for them to compete. The integrity of the sport should not be compromised to accommodate what was ultimately a choice made by that individual to transition.
More power to them for making that choice if it makes them more comfortable in themselves but we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify.
In what way is transitioning not a choice? Keep in mind theres dysphoric people who don't transition. And there's people who transition that are not dysphoric. Conflating that decision with sexual orientation is dishonest.
Yep.Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots
No, he explained himself at length about transitioning being a choice. Saying that being gay is a choice and that engaging in gay sexual acts is a choice, and then going on to write pages about why engaging in gay sex is a choice, does not explain why being gay is a choice. Same applies here. He blatantly said both things.Read all of his posts in the discussion the last few pages and you’d know. He explained himself at length. But that’s not convenient for you. You’d rather try and take a sentence out of context so your tactic of throwing up the bigot card makes sense.
Sorry I wasnt suggesting you are evil or bigotted, I havent made any assertion along those lines, I was just responding to the choice thing. Im not sure if your interpretation of the use of the word choice would work in this situation. I may be getting this wrong but what your saying sounds similar to Gay people having a choice and that choice being whether or not to come out. The fact they choose to come out seems sinilar to me that trans people choose to head down the path of operations etc.But do you get that at some point, the child and/or the parents made the decision to change name, start puberty blockers etc? It may have seemed inevitable based on the childs dysphoria but at some point the decision was made that transition was best for the child. Other parents and children in the same situation may make a difference choice.
I'm not sure how this has ended up with me being painted as someone who is against trans people or their transition as that is simply not the case. My belief that the act of transition is a choice is based on the fact that some people choose to transition and some don't. Some choose to transition and change back. Some change where dysphoria is not the driver. And if a conscious decision is being made on whether or not to transition i don't see why such an autonomous action is being equated with the immutable fact of homosexuality. Not to mention as someone said above the majority of kids will end up growing out of their dysphoria if they pass through puberty without blockers etc. This isn't something that happens with homosexuality so again another weird comparison.
I don't know why I'm bothering to reply as people seem to have decided I'm some evil bigot but there it is.
As @NotThatSoph has pointed out already, you originally said that ‘we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify’. I said it wasn’t a choice (because trans people are born trans). You then quickly pivoted to saying transitioning is a choice, to which I and others said that there are a host of reasons why a trans person may decide not to transition (abuse, discrimination?).My belief that the act of transition is a choice is based on the fact that some people choose to transition and some don't. Some choose to transition and change back. Some change where dysphoria is not the driver. And if a conscious decision is being made on whether or not to transition i don't see why such an autonomous action is being equated with the immutable fact of homosexuality.
AgreedI strongly suspect people are largely born mentally trans but physical transition including hormone therapy is a choice, albeit a choice often made as a personal imperative as not to do so would be mentally harming.
I’d say this post fully explains the point he was making.No, he explained himself at length about transitioning being a choice. Saying that being gay is a choice and that engaging in gay sexual acts is a choice, and then going on to write pages about why engaging in gay sex is a choice, does not explain why being gay is a choice. Same applies here. He blatantly said both things.
I have not called anyone a bigot. I have also not obected to anyone saying that transitioning is a choice. You're saying that, I have not said that you're a bigot or that you're saying being trans is a choice. Wibble has said that transitioning is a choice, as has Conor. I have not called either of them bigots, I have not said that they believe being trans is a choice. If what I took issue with was saying that transitioning is a choice, then I would take issue with all of you. I don't, you're obviously wrong.
As to the second part, if you opened up the discussion with “okay let’s…” with pure intentions, then my apologies.None of what you're saying makes sense unless you equate being dysphoric as being trans. If someone who is dysphoric does not transition, they are not trans. If someone told you they were dysphoric but not trans, would you just tell them you know better?
If you believe the posters on Reddit are lying or transphobes, that's fine. It's the internet, some probably are. This might be more your speed. It's a webinar for detrans awareness day. Plenty of real life de-trans people talking about their experiences.
And your last paragraph is just homophobic. Please don't compare someone's choice to transition to the immutable fact of being gay.
As a direct reply to the not at all condescending "let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary", come on. You're not being serious. And yes, I did read that post where he linked to Genspect (!!, I have to assume that you, and hopefully Phil, isn't familiar). This doesn't bring up anything that isn't covered by your original objection, and I've already said that I disagree and why. When talking about gender dysphoria, or when talking about transitioning, "choosing to identify" makes no sense. The only context where this could imply is when talking about gender identity. We've been over this. I've said it, you've said the opposite. We're wasting time, as always.I’d say this post fully explains the point he was making.
As to the second part, if you opened up the discussion with “okay let’s…” with pure intentions, then my apologies.
Look… you led this off with your post here, that stepic responded to with the bigot claim. So yeah, I questioned your motives.As a direct reply to the not at all condescending "let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary", come on. You're not being serious. And yes, I did read that post where he linked to Genspect (!!, I have to assume that you, and hopefully Phil, isn't familiar). This doesn't bring up anything that isn't covered by your original objection, and I've already said that I disagree and why. When talking about gender dysphoria, or when talking about transitioning, "choosing to identify" makes no sense. The only context where this could imply is when talking about gender identity. We've been over this. I've said it, you've said the opposite. We're wasting time, as always.
As far as the rest of it, yes, I do indeed just think you’re reading what you want into it. Same as I said earlier. Either way, me saying accusations of bigotry need to stop stands. Nobody’s been a bigot here, and the last page and a half have absolutely been a massive waste of time and bandwidth because that accusation was made.I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.
I agree with you to an extent, nobody can disagree there's no advantage but my counter is that if you don't care about that advantage existing naturally between CIS competitors then it's not the presence of the advantage itself that people have an issue with.The impact of backwards could be dependant on your baseline. If you are likely to have started off much taller and with more, larger and stronger muscle than your cis-gender counterparts that you now compete against, then losing 14% of your grip strength might be a meaningless statistic relative to your competition.
Other potentially important physical metrics don't change significantly like height or foot size, which in the swimming example can be important to performance.
Muscle memory is another consideration that may not be negatively impacted by transitioning.
Some of the studies also measured a wide range of trans people including non-athletic individuals making the results less applicable to athletics.
So it's maybe not quite as cut and dried when it comes to top performing athletes.
It's clear that the majority of men develop to be bigger, stronger, faster etc than women. So to develop as a man and transition likely confers an unusual advantage if you are an athlete. All sports have rules that penalize advantages advantages like being offside, face-masking, and ball scuffing and disqualify other advantages like those gained from pseudo-ephedrine, HGH, diuretics, and even testosterone.I agree with you to an extent, nobody can disagree there's no advantage but my counter is that if you don't care about that advantage existing naturally between CIS competitors then it's not the presence of the advantage itself that people have an issue with.
In short, yes it doesand the problem is that that type of advantage is not seen as something natural. In general if a group of men and women dedicate their lives to a certain sport, let's say swimming or athleticism, and if they put the same amount of effort and time on average the men will perform significantly better because of the sex they were born into.My question is does growing to adulthood as a man and then transitioning give a similarly unfair advantage over cis-women that should disqualify a person from competing in the upper levels of athletics?
Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. Goddamn
He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.
Its does, so really there is no "perfect" soloution here imoIf we legislate that you have to compete as your biological birth sex or the sex you were when you went though puberty doesn't that mean that trans men who have had hormone treatment would be forced to compete in the women's comp? Or would they effectively also be banned as they would probably contravene doping regulations?
i didn't even call anyone a bigot, i said his arguments are the same bigoted ones used against gay people 30 years ago. 'attack the post, not the poster', right?Look… you led this off with your post here, that stepic responded to with the bigot claim. So yeah, I questioned your motives.
As far as the rest of it, yes, I do indeed just think you’re reading what you want into it. Same as I said earlier. Either way, me saying accusations of bigotry need to stop stands. Nobody’s been a bigot here, and the last page and a half have absolutely been a massive waste of time and bandwidth because that accusation was made.
That's not what he's saying though. It terms of sport he's saying these men that make the medical decision to transition (hormone blockers etc) have made a decision. That is what this whole topic is about.Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.
If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and is encourage to experiment with how they express their gender and the pronouns they want to be addressed by, and find that it really helps to alleviate their distress, how much of a choice is it really?
He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.
Not really, people can misspeak on the internet just as much as in real life when discussing something. I believe he has expanded on his point enough for my point to still stand. I'm out anyway, enjoy your continued streak of never, ever, ever 'losing' on the internet.Right. And I'm letting you know that it was an error, not a potential error.
Phil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.That's not what he's saying though. It terms of sport he's saying these men that make the medical decision to transition (hormone blockers etc) have made a decision. That is what this whole topic is about.
Hes obviously not talking about men thay haven't made the decision to medically transition and just identify as a women because they would never meet the criteria to compete in women's sport, with tout the medical treatments.
Ergo if no men make the decision to medically transition, this conversation doesn't need to be had.
It was turned into something its not, maybe because he left out the word "medically" but anyone that wasn't out hunting for a bigot knew what he meant.
Maybe he has and I'm the one who misinterpreted what he's said. I thought when he spoke about decision he meant the actual decision to transition medically. I'll bow out again incase i have misinterpretedPhil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.
He literally covered what you’re saying here in a post to you. A post I’ve quoted above. Quite frankly, I’m done talking about it, because it is clear what has and hasn’t happened.Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.
If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and is encourage to experiment with how they express their gender and the pronouns they want to be addressed by, and find that it really helps to alleviate their distress, how much of a choice is it really?
He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.
You were involved in a very similar derailing of this thread last summer. You’ve got a pattern of this, as has been pointed out.i didn't even call anyone a bigot, i said his arguments are the same bigoted ones used against gay people 30 years ago. 'attack the post, not the poster', right?
Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.