Transgender rights discussion

[Wibble]

There's still so little known about gender dysphoria. There's a link between GD and schizophrenia, there's a link between GD and autism, there's a link between GD and depression. I'd say let's find out the root causes that leads to GD before we advocate for surgery on little kids(!) and pumping them full of all sorts of cocktails of medication.

Surgery doesn't happen for little kids. If you find an example it is so rare as to be the same as never.

When there is almost certainly an issue, then after very lengthy consultation, puberty blockers are often used to delay puberty until someone is old enough to make more permanent decisions.

I have no idea what this cocktail of all sorts of medications is that you speak of. That isn't at all what happens.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...horia/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

Not only does this hugely reduce mental harm but it reduces physical harm for those who later choose to undergo surgery, as it is far less invasive in most cases. Bear in mind that surgery is far from a universal choice anyway.

Doing nothing because you personally (the royal you) aren't comfortable or undertand it all is an unethical way to proceed medically, as it doesn't consider the best interests of the patient.

Most of controversy about the medical side of this is driven by religious and far right ideology that plays on people's natural concern for kids. But it ignores the needs and welfare of people with gender identity issues.

And all this is probably far better discussed in the other thread as it is getting away from trans sport issues.

 

[Carolina Red]

"well alright then, lets start medical transitions earlier so that said biological advantage doesn't exist".

The interesting part about that is that there’s research coming out that shows there’s some physiological advantages that males have from the jump. Pre-puberty.

I posted it somewhere earlier this thread, so I’ll see if I can dig it up and edit it into this

Edit:

This paper disagrees with that conclusion

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

There are anatomical differences that are determined before birth and before the onset of puberty that have a direct correlation to athletic performance and that won’t be altered by hormone therapy.

 

[Bebe]

The interesting part about that is that there’s research coming out that shows there’s some physiological advantages that males have from the jump. Pre-puberty.

I posted it somewhere earlier this thread, so I’ll see if I can dig it up and edit it into this

Edit:

Cheers for finding that. Interesting point, and one that makes some level of natural sense to my mind. Definitely further complicates what already seems to be an impossible situation.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

As a pre-teen, I was offered the choice on whether or not to have a significant operation on my back. The operation had a relatively low, but very real, chance of crippling me. Even if successful, that could mean anything from a perfect result, to a year in a wheelchair, to permanently very restricted mobility. It was an edge case, and while my doctor advised me to not do it, it was ultimately left up to me. My parents were also involved in the process, but they too let me have the final say.

This was extremely irreversible. During this process, weirdly enough neither my parents nor my doctor pointed out that they weren't allowed to feck me due to my age. That is rhetoric we only use when talking about gender identity.

Well, that was a fecking lie

 

[NotThatSoph]

Well, that was a fecking lie

No.

 

[Charlie Foley]

i don't have those stats in front of me, but i'd be interested to see them if you have them. i'd say that sometimes it does for some individuals, but not for others. it stands to reason that if you're already suffering from gender dysphoria (and not all trans people do suffer from it, although most do) already, then the changes to your body as a result of puberty are only going to exacerbate that problem. however ultimately what is required is individual care. there shouldn't be a blanket approach, which is why we need to increase the quality and availability of services to young people.

I had no idea about this until you said it. I found this online

What is gender dysphoria?
For some transgender people, the difference between the gender they are thought to be at birth and the gender they know themselves to be can lead to serious emotional distress that affects their health and everyday lives if not addressed. Gender dysphoria is the medical diagnosis for someone who experiences this distress.

Not all transgender people have gender dysphoria. On its own, being transgender is not considered a medical condition. Many transgender people do not experience serious anxiety or stress associated with the difference between their gender identity and their gender of birth, and so may not have gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria can often be relieved by expressing one’s gender in a way that the person is comfortable with. That can include dressing and grooming in a way that reflects who one knows they are, using a different name or pronoun, and, for some, taking medical steps to physically change their body. All major medical organizations in the United States recognize that living according to one’s gender identity is an effective, safe and medically necessary treatment for many people who have gender dysphoria.

It's important to remember that while being transgender is not in itself an illness, many transgender people need to deal with physical and mental health problems because of widespread discrimination and stigma. Many transgender people live in a society that tells them that their deeply held identity is wrong or deviant. Some transgender people have lost their families, their jobs, their homes, and their support, and some experience harassment and even violence. Transgender children may experience rejection or even emotional or physical abuse at home, at school, or in their communities. These kinds of experiences can be challenging for anyone, and for some people, it can lead to anxiety disorders, depression, and other mental health conditions. But these conditions are not caused by having a transgender identity: they're a result of the intolerance many transgender people have to deal with. Many transgender people – especially transgender people who are accepted and valued in their communities – are able to live healthy and fulfilling lives.

Taken from here

 

[Charlie Foley]

Your doctor definitely didn't leave it up to you. You cannot legally consent to surgery when you're not an adult. Your parents had to consent on your behalf.

Your second last sentence is bizarre.

Rereading it I think it must be:

the doctor was willing to do the surgery (but wouldn't force it)
the parents were willing and consented for the surgery to happen, but told notthatsoph they didn't have to go through with it if they didn't want to
notthatsoph made their own decision

the third step might have been up to the child, but the first two weren't.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Rereading it I think it must be:

the doctor was willing to do the surgery (but wouldn't force it)
the parents were willing and consented for the surgery to happen, but told notthatsoph they didn't have to go through with it if they didn't want to
notthatsoph made their own decision

the third step might have been up to the child, but the first two weren't.

Essentially in a situation like my specific one all parties had veto power, though the doctor not really because since I was eligible I could have just asked to get a new one. My parents could have refused to allow me to get the operation even if I wanted it, and likewise if I didn't want it then my parents' wants would be irrelevant. The doctor and my parents did not have the option of scheudeling an operation without me agreeing.

This is a fairly standard way of doing things for a wide range of medical treatments for minors, including gender affirming care. There is nothing special about gender affirming care that necessitates any talk about minors' ability to consent, that doesn't also apply to most treatments.

 

[Sky1981]

Good luck arguing with people who

1. Thinks 90% of the posters are transphobic
2. Refuses to accept basic fact that Trans Athlete has insurmountable advantage, citing but they didn't win the Gold in Olympic so it should be fine
3. Basically just banging about one sided needs, and turning a blind deaf approach towards everything else especially CIS women's need getting sidelined
4. Claiming "I don't have a better answer" but "your answer is wrong, and you're a transphobic"
5. Repeat 1-4
There has been no progress in this thread, apart from the last few pages which actually a refreshing take from the usual

Essentially in a situation like my specific one all parties had veto power, though the doctor not really because since I was eligible I could have just asked to get a new one. My parents could have refused to allow me to get the operation even if I wanted it, and likewise if I didn't want it then my parents' wants would be irrelevant. The doctor and my parents did not have the option of scheudeling an operation without me agreeing.

This is a fairly standard way of doing things for a wide range of medical treatments for minors, including gender affirming care. There is nothing special about gender affirming care that necessitates any talk about minors' ability to consent, that doesn't also apply to most treatments.

You do not own any rights to that decisions, your parents (bless them) just took the right decision and asking your opinion and let you choose. The doctor had veto power by his expertise if he decided it's not in your best interest, your parents has the veto power for everything else and the rights to send you to the recommended course of action, you on the other hand has no saying if the other 2 refuses to listen to you.

Basically your approval has no legal power CMIIW. The procedure the hospital would ask is parent's signature, not yours.

Principally different. Kids are mostly given understanding, but when the push comes to the shoves they have no legal rights to decide anything.

 

[NotThatSoph]

You do not own any rights to that decisions, your parents (bless them) just took the right decision and asking your opinion and let you choose. The doctor had veto power by his expertise if he decided it's not in your best interest, your parents has the veto power for everything else and the rights to send you to the recommended course of action, you on the other hand has no saying if the other 2 refuses to listen to you.

Basically your approval has no legal power CMIIW. The procedure the hospital would ask is parent's signature, not yours.

Principally different. Kids are mostly given understanding, but when the push comes to the shoves they have no legal rights to decide anything.

This is simply wrong. The bar for forcing patients to undergo treatment against their will is very high, also for minors. They could not have forced me to accept surgery.

 

[Sky1981]

This is simply wrong. The bar for forcing patients to undergo treatment against their will is very high, also for minors. They could not have forced me to accept surgery.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/

Not that simple. They have loopholes for extreme cases, but most of the times it's not as simple as you think it is.

People aged 16 or over are entitled to consent to their own treatment. This can only be overruled in exceptional circumstances.

Like adults, young people (aged 16 or 17) are presumed to have sufficient capacity to decide on their own medical treatment, unless there's significant evidence to suggest otherwise.

Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment if they're believed to have enough intelligence, competence and understanding to fully appreciate what's involved in their treatment. This is known as being Gillick competent.

Otherwise, someone with parental responsibility can consent for them.

This could be:

• the child's mother or father
• the child's legally appointed guardian
• a person with a residence order concerning the child
• a local authority designated to care for the child
• a local authority or person with an emergency protection order for the child

There's alot of if and buts, which ultimately comes back to tribunal / court decision should dispute arises. To the very least, the hardest part is to proof that minors (16 or younger) has the mental and full knowledge of the situation to assess make his own decision.


Which in Trans case, still needs lots of further research.

 

[NotThatSoph]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/

Not that simple. They have loopholes for extreme cases, but most of the times it's not as simple as you think it is.




There's alot of if and buts, which ultimately comes back to tribunal / court decision should dispute arises. To the very least, the hardest part is to proof that minors (16 or younger) has the mental and full knowledge of the situation to assess make his own decision.


Which in Trans case, still needs lots of further research.

This is talking about Gillick competence, which is the ability of a minor to consent to medical treatment without parents' involvement, that is not what we're talking about.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Surgery doesn't happen for little kids. If you find an example it is so rare as to be the same as never.

When there is almost certainly an issue, then after very lengthy consultation, puberty blockers are often used to delay puberty until someone is old enough to make more permanent decisions.

I have no idea what this cocktail of all sorts of medications is that you speak of. That isn't at all what happens.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...horia/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

Not only does this hugely reduce mental harm but it reduces physical harm for those who later choose to undergo surgery, as it is far less invasive in most cases. Bear in mind that surgery is far from a universal choice anyway.

Doing nothing because you personally (the royal you) aren't comfortable or undertand it all is an unethical way to proceed medically, as it doesn't consider the best interests of the patient.

Most of controversy about the medical side of this is driven by religious and far right ideology that plays on people's natural concern for kids. But it ignores the needs and welfare of people with gender identity issues.

And all this is probably far better discussed in the other thread as it is getting away from trans sport issues.

Bolded is incorrect in my opinion.

Also on delaying puberty, there is a lack of adequate research that shows this outcome is safe and fine. It's used in precocious puberty (for example children under ten suddenly going through puberty before physically able to) but the idea that "it's just pausing puberty" like you pause a DVD and can just resume puberty in five years, is wildly untrue.

The other startling statistic was all of the tavistock and other clinic data showed that a large, large proportion of children placed on puberty blockers, went onto cross sex hormones. So it wasn't so much a pause, as it was step one in a process of transition.

This was where a lot of the concerns were raised as it wasn't about pausing puberty but starting to transition.

I agree that small children are not undergoing surgery but you have an increasing amount of under 18s that are having surgery now.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I had no idea about this until you said it. I found this online



Taken from here

What confuses me, is if someone is trans but doesn't have gender dysphoria, then why do they need special dispensation (is that the right word?) because it's more of a choice (is it if they don't have GD?)

Then if it's a choice, it might be viewed more as a lifestyle choice rather than a medical/mental health/orientation type thing? Like being gay for example.

Alas, that's a Q for the other thread as Pogue said.

 

[stepic]

What confuses me, is if someone is trans but doesn't have gender dysphoria, then why do they need special dispensation (is that the right word?) because it's more of a choice (is it if they don't have GD?)

Then if it's a choice, it might be viewed more as a lifestyle choice rather than a medical/mental health/orientation type thing? Like being gay for example.

Alas, that's a Q for the other thread as Pogue said.

If you’re trans but don’t have dysphoria, it’s still not a choice. Not sure how it would follow that it was? They still didn’t choose to be trans, their identity is still not aligned to their birth sex, they just don’t suffer from it or experience trauma from it.

Doesn’t mean they may not still suffer from discrimination or be at risk of violence or abuse though, of course.

Only answering because you mentioned it here, happy to carry on in the other thread

 

[Red Stone]

If if if if if if if. Just post the stories of the people who regretted it, add some evidence to your thoughts and opinions. Let people read and make up their minds. I have plenty of experience with that community, so reading stories of people who regret the transition is not really going to outweigh that. But people may find it helpful, so add those stories.

Here's an article about detransitioning, which features multiple people that have regretted their gender change and also addresses the fact that very little research has been done on the long-term effects of this sort of treatment. Alexander Linkowski also has a video on YouTube where he talks about his experience with gender dysphoria, transitioning and subsequently detransitioning.

The studies referenced in that article seem to indicate that children that go through a rigorous assessment before starting any sort of treatment have far fewer incidences of regret, wheras some of the stories from the US in particular make it sound like they very quickly have kids going through puberty blockers, hormones and surgeries and the studies show that incidences of regret are far higher, which obviously makes sense. I find it very alarming that a recurring trend seems to be that there is very limited long-term follow-up from doctors with patients that have transitioned. Especially considering that the authors of one of the Dutch studies had this to say: “In our population the average time to regret was 130 months, so it might be too early to examine regret rates in people who started with (hormone therapy) in the past 10 years.”

In other words, people regret transitioning 11 years after the fact, but we expect kids that haven't even been alive for 11 years to make the call that they should be put on life-altering medication? It is very interesting that people that have gone through the long and often painful process of seeking treatment, getting treatment and in some cases getting gender-affirming surgery and then regretting the decision later. It suggests that, in addition to not all trans people having gender dysphoria, not all people with gender dysphoria are actually trans either. How can we be sure that a child is able to distinguish between the two? The Dutch studies suggest that clinical professionals are able to determine that reasonably successfully through rigorous assessments over a long period of time, but it also seems like many countries don't have the same strict practices.

 

[Charlie Foley]

What confuses me, is if someone is trans but doesn't have gender dysphoria, then why do they need special dispensation (is that the right word?) because it's more of a choice (is it if they don't have GD?)

Then if it's a choice, it might be viewed more as a lifestyle choice rather than a medical/mental health/orientation type thing? Like being gay for example.

Alas, that's a Q for the other thread as Pogue said.

I don’t see where you’re getting “it’s a choice” from at all. The thing I quoted just talks about more and less severe degrees of distress over it (am I missing something) to reach the threshold of gender dysphoria or not?

 

[jojojo]

I've just moved a bit batch of posts from the thread on transgender athletes as the discussion had evolved into broader areas.

Apologies if I moved your post in error. Please repost it in the appropriate thread if that happened.

 

[Charlie Foley]

I've just moved a bit batch of posts from the thread on transgender athletes as the discussion had evolved into broader areas.

Apologies if I moved your post in error. Please repost it in the appropriate thread if that happened.

Thanks

 

[calodo2003]

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[Withnail]

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He has some wild utterances but jaysus this is just so unhinged.

The denomisation of trans people and amplification of an issue which affects such a small minority of the population makes no real sense. Do people not see that obviously something else is going on here? When you think about it you have to wonder why fear-mongering on this issue is front and centre in politics.

 

[Tyrion]

It doesn't even make sense. It's sad that a party like the Republican party has been reduced to "trans people are bad" as their main policy.

He seems to think trans people existing makes men less "masculine" (trans men exist too) and that will lead to Hamas taking Florida.

 

[Tarrou]

He has some wild utterances but jaysus this is just so unhinged.

The denomisation of trans people and amplification of an issue which affects such a small minority of the population makes no real sense. Do people not see that obviously something else is going on here? When you think about it you have to wonder why fear-mongering on this issue is front and centre in politics.

not much to wonder about really is there?

they use fear to drive voter sentiment and this is just the latest group they’re targeting after black or gay people are no longer “fair game”

 

[Acheron]

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Wow, that's a huge reach and a very unfortunate comparison to make.

 

[calodo2003]

Who'd of thunk it? It's always the ones you most suspect...

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[WI_Red]

Who'd of thunk it? It's always the ones you most suspect...

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If someone asked me what a CM looks like I would describe this man. Talk about type casting.

 

[calodo2003]

If someone asked me what a CM looks like I would describe this man. Talk about type casting.

Certainly ticks off a bunch of the boxes, doesn't he?

 

[horsechoker]

If someone asked me what a CM looks like I would describe this man. Talk about type casting.

He doesn't look like a centre mid to me

 

[WI_Red]

He doesn't look like a centre mid to me

Neither do any of Utd's, but doesn't stop ETH from playing them there.

 

[nimic]

What a bitch.

 

[Halftrack]

What a bitch.

She's an absolutely vile and evil person. Getting banned from Elon's Twitter for insulting that bag of shite was one of my better internet moments.

 

[Wibble]

What a bitch.

Wow. I'd say that is a defamation lawsuit waiting to happen. Calling someone a rapists's rights activist and a mysogynist because they don't agree with you on a trans issue is outrageous.

 

[Halftrack]

Wow. I'd say that is a defamation lawsuit waiting to happen. Calling someone a rapists's rights activist and a mysogynist because they don't agree with you on a trans issue is outrageous.

She's Linehaned herself.

 

[Sweet Square]

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TORVAIANICA, Italy (AP) — Pope Francis’ recent gesture of welcome for transgender Catholics has resonated strongly in this working class, seaside town south of Rome, where a community of trans women has found help and hope through a remarkable relationship with the pontiff forged during the darkest times of the pandemic.

Thanks to the local parish priest, these women now make monthly visits to Francis’ Wednesday general audiences, where they are given VIP seats. On any given day, they receive handouts of medicine, cash and shampoo. When COVID-19 struck, the Vatican bussed them into its health facility so they could be vaccinated ahead of most Italians.

On Sunday, the women — many of whom are Latin American migrants and work as prostitutes — joined over 1,000 other poor and homeless people in the Vatican auditorium as Francis’ guests for lunch to mark the Catholic Church’s World Day of the Poor.

The menu was evidence of Francis’ belief that those most on the margins must be treated with utmost dignity: cannelloni pasta filled with spinach and ricotta to start; meatballs in a tomato-basil sauce and cauliflower puree, and tiramisu with petit fours for dessert.


or the marginalized trans community of Torvaianica, it was just the latest gesture of inclusion from a pope who has made reaching out to the LGBTQ+ community a hallmark of his papacy, in word and deed.


“Before, the church was closed to us. They didn’t see us as normal people, they saw us as the devil,” said Andrea Paola Torres Lopez, a Colombian transgender woman known as Consuelo, whose kitchen is decorated with pictures of Jesus. “Then Pope Francis arrived and the doors of the church opened for us.”

 

[calodo2003]

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[Frosty]

Brianna Ghey’s parents call for compassion for her killers’ families

Esther Ghey says teenagers who murdered her daughter have shown no remorse, but asks for empathy for their parents

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-to-beautful-daughter-after-pair-convicted-of

Both defendants were found guilty of Brianna's murder.

The pair showed no reaction to the verdicts, but their mothers wept in the court. Afterwards, Brianna’s mother urged “empathy and compassion” for the killers’ parents, saying they “too have lost a child and must live the rest of their lives knowing what their child has done”.

Girl X, who was fascinated by serial killers and boasted of watching torture videos on the dark web, said she was “obsessed” with Brianna. She and Brianna had been friends for a few months before she began plotting to kill her, along with Y.

Some quotes from Brianna's parents.

Her mother, Esther Ghey:

“We miss Brianna so much and our house feels empty without her laughter.

“To know how scared my usually fearless child must have been when she was alone in that park with someone that she called her friend will haunt me forever.

Please have some empathy and compassion for the families of the young people convicted of this horrific crime. They too have lost a child and must live the rest of their lives knowing what their child has done.”

Her father, Peter Spooner:

“It is impossible to put into words how the murder of my child has affected me. I never stopped loving her and never will.

“From when she was little, I remember all the faces she would pull to make me laugh, her cheeky giggle and funny dances are engraved in my memory. I knew she was going to be a star and the amount of support she has received and followers on TikTok have proved this.

“She would share her TikTok videos with me all the time and I was so proud of what she could do. Showing me how she would do her makeup, she had such an amazing talent and I enjoyed sharing that with friends and family.

“I look into her eyes, and they shine back at me, and I know she was a beautiful girl to be proud of. I hate how her life has been brutally taken away from her and she has been deprived of the life she wanted to live."

 

[Jippy]

Brianna Ghey’s parents call for compassion for her killers’ families

Esther Ghey says teenagers who murdered her daughter have shown no remorse, but asks for empathy for their parents

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-to-beautful-daughter-after-pair-convicted-of

Both defendants were found guilty of Brianna's murder.

The pair showed no reaction to the verdicts, but their mothers wept in the court. Afterwards, Brianna’s mother urged “empathy and compassion” for the killers’ parents, saying they “too have lost a child and must live the rest of their lives knowing what their child has done”.

Girl X, who was fascinated by serial killers and boasted of watching torture videos on the dark web, said she was “obsessed” with Brianna. She and Brianna had been friends for a few months before she began plotting to kill her, along with Y.

Some quotes from Brianna's parents.

Her mother, Esther Ghey:



Her father, Peter Spooner:

Brianna's parents are remarkable people if they can find it in their hearts to show compassion to the killers' families after sitting through what must have been a harrowing trial.

 

[Semper Fudge]

Nightmarish case, neither of them should be released. The girl in particular seems like a special brand of evil.

 

[calodo2003]

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[Frosty]

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So 'states rights' has limits, I see.