Trent can’t defend

[Pickle85]

It is not significantly poorer

Disagree.

 

[flappyjay]

You are comparing 3 fullbacks in a team that could have won 4 trophies vs a team that barely reached CL qualification last season.

Individually speaking, TAA 47 appearances.. missed 8 games. Robertson 47 appearances.. missed 8 games. James 39 games.. missed 21 for various reasons including a bad injury.

Stats look awesome without context.. except there’s not much difference in any of them. Bear in mind James played 26 league games the above stats for fullbacks becomes completely meaningless as there is not way to compare. However if you do want to include attacking stats how about everyone’s favourite, goals and assists..
G. A. Total
James 6 11 (17)
TAA 2 19 (21)
Robertson 3 15 (18)

TAA finished with 4 more goal contributions in a free scoring team vs half a season of completely dysfunctional and goal shy football. If this is not proof that their attacking ability isn’t as wide of a gap as people make out then I don’t know what to tell you.

More context Trent plays as a RB and James plays as a rwb so has a bit more freedom to attack. But this also means James is more adapted to England's current formation which still makes him the best option. Trent should still be an option though.

 

[Cassidy]

More context Trent plays as a RB and James plays as a rwb so has a bit more freedom to attack. But this also means James is more adapted to England's current formation which still makes him the best option. Trent should still be an option though.

James does not have more freedom to attack if you actually watch as Trent has alot of freedom and is covered by the midfield. James also plays RCB

 

[arnie_ni]

More context Trent plays as a RB and James plays as a rwb so has a bit more freedom to attack. But this also means James is more adapted to England's current formation which still makes him the best option. Trent should still be an option though.

Hasn't James been playing as the rcb in the back 5 alot?

 

[flappyjay]

James does not have more freedom to attack if you actually watch as Trent has alot of freedom and is covered by the midfield. James also plays RCB

No he doesn't he rarely plays rcb for Chelsea and last season when he got most of his goals and assists from rwb. James definitely had more freedom to attack under Tuchel that's why he and Chilwell were contributing so much inthier attack before they both got injured last season. When James came back from injury normal service was resumed.

 

[flappyjay]

Hasn't James been playing as the rcb in the back 5 alot?

No James plays rwb for Chelsea. Last season rcb was either christiensen or Azpilicueta. James fills in here and there.

 

[Cassidy]

No he doesn't he rarely plays rcb for Chelsea and last season when he got most of his goals and assists from rwb. James definitely had more freedom to attack under Tuchel that's why he and Chilwell were contributing so much inthier attack before they both got injured last season. When James came back from injury normal service was resumed.

I said he doesn't have more licence to attack than Trent, its not a matter of just saying one plays RB and the other RWB, Trent does not operate like a normal fullback. And fullback is pools top attacking outlet. He gets licence to get further forward as the midfield cover him. That is pools setup, this is why he doesn't get picked for England at the moment because Southgate doesn’t know how to use him.

Its not that he can’t defend, its that he plays with alot of defensive freedom which England do not afford its fullbacks/wingbacks. James does a lot of defending for Chelsea if you actually watch the games, even if hes playing RWB.

 

[flappyjay]

I said he doesn't have more licence to attack than Trent, its not a matter of just saying one plays RB and the other RWB, Trent does not operate like a normal fullback. And fullback is pools top attacking outlet. He gets licence to get further forward as the midfield cover him. That is pools setup, this is why he doesn't get picked for England at the moment because Southgate doesn’t know how to use him.

Its not that he can’t defend, its that he plays with alot of defensive freedom which England do not afford its fullbacks/wingbacks. James does a lot of defending for Chelsea if you actually watch the games, even if hes playing RWB.

I doubt your assessment of they way James plays from the fact that you thought he played rcb for Chelsea. James is the better defender but as I said Chelsea last season relied more on their fullbacks for their attacks too. James and chilwell had a lot of attacking freedom too before their injuries. I accept that James is the better fit for the team and in my opinion the better fullback. I refuse to accept that playing as a wing back didn't give James the edge in attacking situations, having seen how Chelsea were playing last season. It's not just about positions but how tuchel utilised his fullbacks, his fullbacks were his wingers.

 

[Cassidy]

I doubt your assessment of they way James plays from the fact that you thought he played rcb for Chelsea. James is the better defender but as I said Chelsea last season relied more on their fullbacks for their attacks too. James and chilwell had a lot of attacking freedom too before their injuries. I accept that James is the better fit for the team and in my opinion the better fullback. I refuse to accept that playing as a wing back didn't give James the edge in attacking situations, having seen how Chelsea were playing last season. It's not just about positions but how tuchel utilised his fullbacks, his fullbacks were his wingers.

He did play RCB at times. So maybe you should doubt yourself

 

[sullydnl]

Don't particularly buy the idea that James had more freedom than Trent.

But James did also overperformed his underlying stats in the league last season, returning 5G/9 A from 2.6xG/5.8 xA in what was his first season of that sort of output. Whereas TAA returned 2G/12A from 2.6xG/11.2xA, figures in line with his previous seasons.

Or put more simply, James' goals and assists rate last season flatters him as he isn't going to keep returning at roughly twice the rate of his underlying stats. Using those numbers as a benchmark for his attacking threat isn't a good idea.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Its annoying how pundits act like because if his attacking prowess he has some sort of divine right to make England squads and play. Yet he it is so obviously bad defensively he is an easy targeted liability. Yet his club coach has no intention of getting him to improve defensively.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No James plays rwb for Chelsea. Last season rcb was either christiensen or Azpilicueta. James fills in here and there.

Christensen barely played last season because he wanted to ensure his move to Barcelona went off without a hitch. Any time we played a pacy left sided attacker James played RCB.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Well, yes, but James' delivery is significantly poorer than TAA's and I think if you're desperate in the last 20 mins, TAA would look a miles better offensive weapon than James. Yep, he's a very poor defender but Liverpool managed to make him look like a world beater by covering for his deficiencies and playing to his strengths. Agreed that we wouldn't want to carry him for a whole game, but as an impact sub I reckon he is still very useful for his delivery and for dead balls.

It's not significantly poorer and if you're "desperate in the last 20mns", TAA is the last person you'd want to bring on. You don't go "hail Mary" for 20mns of a game, that's still plenty of time (exactly what Arteta did against us and they were punished for it).

 

[Righteous Steps]

Its annoying how pundits act like because if his attacking prowess he has some sort of divine right to make England squads and play. Yet he it is so obviously bad defensively he is an easy targeted liability. Yet his club coach has no intention of getting him to improve defensively.

It’s the coaches job to provide a setup that best covers his players weaknesses, while also highlighting the players strengths, very few players in the history of football have ‘had it all’ in terms of combining physical mental and technical parts of the game, most players not named Pele have deficiencies in their game.

 

[cyberman]

It’s the coaches job to provide a setup that best covers his players weaknesses, while also highlighting the players strengths, very few players in the history of football have ‘had it all’ in terms of combining physical mental and technical parts of the game, most players not named Pele have deficiencies in their game.

So build everything around a RB who can’t defend? Not being able to defend as a defender is more than a deficiency never mind the horrible form he’s in.
Surely players needing to perform is a prerequisite to playing for England who have world class RBs already playing in his position?

 

[Righteous Steps]

So build everything around a RB who can’t defend? Not being able to defend as a defender is more than a deficiency never mind the horrible form he’s in.
Surely players needing to perform is a prerequisite to playing for England who have world class RBs already playing in his position?

Nope don’t build the team around anybody, have a system that manages to get the best out your best players is preferable but Southgate only has a limited time with these players and hasn’t shown any history of being a progressive forward thinking coach in any job in his career so I’m not giving him too much blame either.

Not being able to defend as a defender is a deficiency in the traditional English game but the European and particularly South American(Brazil) game is full of players particularly full backs whos attacking ability was probably better than their defensive capabilities, See Marcelo Carlos etc.

 

[cyberman]

Nope don’t build the team around anybody, have a system that manages to get the best out your best players is preferable but Southgate only has a limited time with these players and hasn’t shown any history of being a progressive forward thinking coach in any job in his career so I’m not giving him too much blame either.

Not being able to defend as a defender is a deficiency in the traditional English game but the European and particularly South American(Brazil) game is full of players particularly full backs whos attacking ability was probably better than their defensive capabilities, See Marcelo Carlos etc.

Gareth does have his system though and Trent doesn’t fit in it? Why would he then bring Trent in and build around him to hide his deficiencies when he has others who can do what is asked to a higher standard?
I’d argue all of those Brazilian FBs were great going forward but none of them were as bad as Trent is at defending. The man doesn’t even run back anymore, it’s not a comparison. Marcelo was 10x the defender Trent is. He had Ronaldo do feck all in front of him for a decade and still did the defensive job of two men.

 

[flappyjay]

Christensen barely played last season because he wanted to ensure his move to Barcelona went off without a hitch. Any time we played a pacy left sided attacker James played RCB.

That was in the 2nd half of the season when he phoned it in.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

That was in the 2nd half of the season when he phoned it in.

So? You are still categorically wrong that James didn't play RCB for us at times last season.

 

[christinaa]

TAA is a bighead too.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Gareth does have his system though and Trent doesn’t fit in it? Why would he then bring Trent in and build around him to hide his deficiencies when he has others who can do what is asked to a higher standard?
I’d argue all of those Brazilian FBs were great going forward but none of them were as bad as Trent is at defending. The man doesn’t even run back anymore, it’s not a comparison. Marcelo was 10x the defender Trent is. He had Ronaldo do feck all in front of him for a decade and still did the defensive job of two men.

You see this is what happens when time pasts, you forget about all the deficiencies of former players and hype them up as if they were some infallible mythical creatures, to say Marcelo is 10x the defender than Trent is ridiculous, he is barely a better defender at all and I’m sure there are Madrid posters on here who would agree with me.

 

[Pickle85]

It's not significantly poorer and if you're "desperate in the last 20mns", TAA is the last person you'd want to bring on. You don't go "hail Mary" for 20mns of a game, that's still plenty of time (exactly what Arteta did against us and they were punished for it).

TAA's delivery is significantly better than James'. It's clear as day. That's not to say that James' is poor, just that it's an outstanding aspect of TAA's game. And it's not what arteta did against us - they weren't chucking balls into the box, they just went hell for leather and left themselves exposed at the back.

 

[Hughes35]

I don't understand all the fuss about him not playing for England tbh.

I really like him as a player and i'd have no issue with him being picked...... We also have Walker + James who are also great right backs and have no issue with either them them.

I just don't understand the fuss............ "Why bother taking him if he doesn't play"........ Well because you take a squad of 28 and only 11 can play in a game. Pretty obvious really.

 

[TheReligion]

I don't understand all the fuss about him not playing for England tbh.

I really like him as a player and i'd have no issue with him being picked...... We also have Walker + James who are also great right backs and have no issue with either them them.

I just don't understand the fuss............ "Why bother taking him if he doesn't play"........ Well because you take a squad of 28 and only 11 can play in a game. Pretty obvious really.

There shouldn’t be a fuss really. We are stacked in his position with better players. It’s not surprising he’s not playing.

Trent should become a midfielder.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

TAA's delivery is significantly better than James'. It's clear as day. That's not to say that James' is poor, just that it's an outstanding aspect of TAA's game. And it's not what arteta did against us - they weren't chucking balls into the box, they just went hell for leather and left themselves exposed at the back.

I repeat - no, it's not significantly better. They just end up scoring more from crosses cos it's a big part of Liverpool's game.

As for the Arteta point, I didn't say they were crossing, I was highlighting they lost control of the game by going too offensive, which is what bringing Trent on would amount to as a "hail Mary" tactic, and which is something you shouldn't do with 20mns of a game remaining.

Anyway, I don't really see any point in pursuing it further. You seem to have a much higher opinion of TAA than most people, and seem to focus on one of his abilities and not on his impact on the team as a whole due to his other deficiencies.

There shouldn’t be a fuss really. We are stacked in his position with better players. It’s not surprising he’s not playing.

Trent should become a midfielder.

Not good enough, not fast enough, not clever enough to be a midfielder.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I repeat - no, it's not significantly better. They just end up scoring more from crosses cos it's a big part of Liverpool's game.

As for the Arteta point, I didn't say they were crossing, I was highlighting they lost control of the game by going too offensive, which is what bringing Trent on would amount to as a "hail Mary" tactic, and which is something you shouldn't do with 20mns of a game remaining.

Anyway, I don't really see any point in pursuing it further. You seem to have a much higher opinion of TAA than most people, and seem to focus on one of his abilities and not on his impact on the team as a whole due to his other deficiencies.

Not good enough, not fast enough, not clever enough to be a midfielder.

Meanwhile you seem to ignore the fact he’s been one of Liverpool’s key playmakers of the last 3-4 which coincided with them being the one of the best teams in Europe. He’s been one of Liverpool’s best players in a golden era.

He’s been the arguably most influential attacking full back for a team since Dani Alves at Sevilla.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Meanwhile you seem to ignore the fact he’s been one of Liverpool’s key playmakers of the last 3-4 which coincided with them being the one of the best teams in Europe. He’s been one of Liverpool’s best players in a golden era.

He’s been the arguably most influential attacking full back for a team since Dani Alves at Sevilla.

When have I ignored that? I addressed it when I first posted in here, mentioning the system. He's influential cos Klopp's system places the burden of creativity on the fullbacks who are covered by workhorse midfielders. Trent's style of play only worked because he has in large parts been covered by midfielders stepping in for him (notably Henderson), I'd argue he's started to regress since Klopp has tried switching to a more proactive midfield.

In any case, the England setup is not tailored to him, and as a "traditional" right back, or even wing back, there are several players ahead of him. It's really not rocket science and I don't understand how it's even a debate.

Also "one of the best teams in Europe" has won 1 CL and 1 league title, it's not like he's a serial winner anyway. He was also at fault in the CL final last year, due to his defensive laziness.

 

[arnie_ni]

So? You are still categorically wrong that James didn't play RCB for us at times last season.

love when someone answers something so confidently and then doubles down only to be wrong ha.

I knew he played a good bit at rcb

 

[Cassidy]

That was in the 2nd half of the season when he phoned it in.

So now that you know that you were wrong. Do you still trust your own assessment of the way James plays….

 

[Brwned]

You see this is what happens when time pasts, you forget about all the deficiencies of former players and hype them up as if they were some infallible mythical creatures, to say Marcelo is 10x the defender than Trent is ridiculous, he is barely a better defender at all and I’m sure there are Madrid posters on here who would agree with me.

At the end of the day all you need to do is watch the Germany Brazil 7-1 again and you get a vivid reminder of Marcelo’s deficiencies…that was a particularly spectacular example but it was a common theme to see Marcelo get destroyed when he was forced to defend against good opposition. Most of the time he was covered for by the centre mids and centre backs, the idea he did defending for two is ludicrous. He just played in a team that allowed him to play more like another midfielder on the front foot rather than a defender. Just like TAA.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

When have I ignored that? I addressed it when I first posted in here, mentioning the system. He's influential cos Klopp's system places the burden of creativity on the fullbacks who are covered by workhorse midfielders. Trent's style of play only worked because he has in large parts been covered by midfielders stepping in for him (notably Henderson), I'd argue he's started to regress since Klopp has tried switching to a more proactive midfield.

In any case, the England setup is not tailored to him, and as a "traditional" right back, or even wing back, there are several players ahead of him. It's really not rocket science and I don't understand how it's even a debate.

England just got relegated from the Nations League, only scoring 1 goal in their first 5 games. So surely the player who created the second most chances in the Premier League last season could have helped their squad with that.

 

[Pickle85]

England just got relegated from the Nations League, only scoring 1 goal in their first 5 games. So surely the player who created the second most chances in the Premier League last season could have helped their squad with that.

Yep, exactly. I don't think he should be starting but to me, what he offers by way of his dead balls and crossing means he's an excellent bench option at worst.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

love when someone answers something so confidently and then doubles down only to be wrong ha.

I knew he played a good bit at rcb

Yep - and this season as well he's played there quite a bit.

Personally I think that's an argument in Reece's favour - he can credibly play 4-5 positions at a high level as he has done for Chelsea (off the top of my head, RWB, RB, RCB, CM, RM). James feels like a player who can adapt to what a team needs; Trent is exactly the opposite insofar as he needs the team to be built around him.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It’s the coaches job to provide a setup that best covers his players weaknesses, while also highlighting the players strengths, very few players in the history of football have ‘had it all’ in terms of combining physical mental and technical parts of the game, most players not named Pele have deficiencies in their game.

Literally the worst excuse I've ever read defending a player's inadequacies. For all his attacking prowess TAA is just too weak a defender and neither he nor his club coach seem intent on rectifying it. Its thus not incumbent on a national coach, who works with him occasionally, to accommodate nor fix him when he clearly has the options to pick others who can do what is required. The likes of James are nigh as potent in attack and miles more reliable defensively.

 

[Flexdegea]

I don't understand all the fuss about him not playing for England tbh.

I really like him as a player and i'd have no issue with him being picked...... We also have Walker + James who are also great right backs and have no issue with either them them.

I just don't understand the fuss............ "Why bother taking him if he doesn't play"........ Well because you take a squad of 28 and only 11 can play in a game. Pretty obvious really.

Classic England.

Always a player before every big competition who gets hyped to the moon and all the drama around, like they are the difference to the whole competition going well.


Near sure before the euros the whole focus was around Grealish like he was one of their best players, and same debate about him being a maverick, and had that X factor to change games.........it's basically just a massive hangover spilling over from the Gazza days. They love the supposed X Factor player.

Near sure barkley had it too one stage as well and he is totally rubbish.

You'd hear the same pundits year in year out give their opinion on these players and usual cliche crap about should be getting them on the team some how with no regard for the system or first 11 "they can get on the ball and make stuff happen".


Its the same sort of pundit talk we hearing for Trent at the moment too. Forget the rest, he can make something happen and that's all that matters.

 

[Pickle85]

Classic England.

Always a player before every big competition who gets hyped to the moon and all the drama around, like they are the difference to the whole competition going well.


Near sure before the euros the whole focus was around Grealish like he was one of their best players, and same debate about him being a maverick, and had that X factor to change games.........it's basically just a massive hangover spilling over from the Gazza days. They love the supposed X Factor player.

Near sure barkley had it too one stage as well and he is totally rubbish.

You'd hear the same pundits year in year out give their opinion on these players and usual cliche crap about should be getting them on the team some how with no regard for the system or first 11 "they can get on the ball and make stuff happen".


Its the same sort of pundit talk we hearing for Trent at the moment too. Forget the rest, he can make something happen and that's all that matters.

Strange post, tbh. In what way is discussing whether a particular player should feature a curiously English phenomenon? It's something that happens, to a greater or lesser extent, to most international teams. It's just that, given the reach of the media and the profile of the league, we are exposed to it more here. Tracing it back to Gazza like it has some uniquely English genealogy is weird and misleading. Also, I certainly don't remember any kind of uproar around Barkley not being involved. At best, there were some murmurings but the vast majority At worst understood the decision. At root, what you're talking about here is simply English pundits and fans discussing what their best leven looks like. Yes, often on particular player's omission may be contentious and so will be discussed more. Hold the front page!

 

[WeePat]

Pitch is too big Klopp says.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[roonster09]

Pitch is too big Klopp says.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Was here to post this clip. it's brilliant tbh, Klopp was spot on. In short he just called out clueless pundits and fans.

 

[andersj]

Was here to post this clip. it's brilliant tbh, Klopp was spot on. In short he just called out clueless pundits and fans.

I think the criticism against Trent mostly stems from «the other situations» that Klopp says «every player has». Problem is, Trent have them quite alot.

 

[Pexbo]

Was here to post this clip. it's brilliant tbh, Klopp was spot on. In short he just called out clueless pundits and fans.

Sorry but that is absolute bollocks. Klopp is suggesting that the goals he’s been blamed for he’s had license to be attacking and that’s not his fault. Absolute rubbish, look at any of the goals he’s been blamed for recently and it’s not down to tactics, he’s in positions where he should do much better. It’s a lack of concentration or a lack of effort.

You’re getting sucked in by a manager doing his best to take the heat off one of his underperforming players.