Tribalism in Football

[Walrus]

I dont expect this to be a very popular opinion, given we are on a Man United forum, but hey ho.

I've been a United supporter all my life, but as I have grown older I have found that I am far less interested in the rivalries and general partisanship when it comes to football. No, I don't want Liverpool to win the league, but about 90% of that is simply because I know that every single Liverpool fan in existence will be utterly unbearable as a result. The whole United vs Liverpool rivalry barely factors into it for me any more.

Dont get me wrong - its fun to pick a club to support. Im not from Manchester. I grew up in north London, about 30 seconds down the road from the old Arsenal ground at Highbury. I only picked Manchester United to support because everyone else supported the gunners and I just wanted to be different, so I went for their main rival at the time.

Point I am making here is that in most other walks of life - especially politics - tribalism and partisanship is frowned upon, and deemed a problem that needs to be fixed. But in sports - especially football - it is celebrated. Fans will happily wish death on each other and their teams, just because the other person decided (and it is a decision, ultimately) to support the other team rather than theirs. It reminds me of the whole "my dad could beat your dad up" arguments from schoolgrounds. Neither I nor anyone on this forum has an impact on how successful Manchester United Football Club is, and similarly their success has no direct impact on my life (other than being happy that my team won, and bragging rights over the 'rivals'). Why should I celebrate their achievements if I had nothing to do with them, and they have nothing to do with me?

Perhaps more interesting is the animosity and hatred that is bred and expected when rivals and their supporters are concerned. Based on the above, is there any reason for me to hate City, other than that they are one of United's main rivals? From a footballing perspective, I have enjoyed watching City and Liverpool far more than United this season.

To put this another way, during the CL/EL fixtures this week, loads of people were praying that some English side or other lost and didnt make their respective finals. For me, I am delighted that we have four English clubs dominating the finals of the European competitions. I would obviously prefer if one of those teams was United, but regardless of that, it is a great statement of strength from the Premier League, especially when City (arguably the best team in the league) isnt even in it (the CL). Hell, if you want to nitpick then the English teams doing well in Europe is good for United as it means the PL isnt going to lose its 4th CL space.

So what is the point of it? Having rivalries gives a bit of passion and something to look forward to in the way of derbies, sure. But it seems to me that society would arguably be better off without the animosity and anger that comes with it. For me nowadays, I find that I am more interested in how my Fantasy Football players are doing - that is something that at least has a more personal bearing on me than what a football club at the other side of the country does.

 

[Sandikan]

The level of hatefulness, especially online seems to be at epidemic levels these days.
Plus all the mocking of other teams players with mems etc.

That said, anyone but Liverpool. Always.

 

[adexkola]

To put this another way, during the CL/EL fixtures this week, loads of people were praying that some English side or other lost and didnt make their respective finals. For me, I am delighted that we have four English clubs dominating the finals of the European competitions. I would obviously prefer if one of those teams was United, but regardless of that, it is a great statement of strength from the Premier League, especially when City (arguably the best team in the league) isnt even in it (the CL). Hell, if you want to nitpick then the English teams doing well in Europe is good for United as it means the PL isnt going to lose its 4th CL space.

Look, if you want to jerk off over a map of England while singing Brittania then go ahead, no one's stopping you. Can the rest of us tribal savages, who don't see much pleasant in our rivals getting into the finals, live in peace?

 

[KirkDuyt]

I'm exactly the same. I used to fecking loathe Ajax and would never ever EVER dream of even admitting I liked some of their players. Bow I have no problem at all doing so.

 

[Denis79]

Although I understand your point of view, I feel the opposite. I don't go as far as wishing death upon our rivals but I do wish them failure. The rivalray and the banter surrounding the sport itself is what makes it fun for me, without it the sport would be so much less interesting in my opinion.

 

[redman5]

I personally wouldn't have it any other way. I doubt us & United would have achieved half of what we have without that drive to out-do each other.

 

[Snowjoe]

Tribalism is the best

 

[Kapardin]

Look, if you want to jerk off over a map of England while singing Brittania then go ahead, no one's stopping you. Can the rest of us tribal savages, who don't see much pleasant in our rivals getting into the finals, live in peace?

Pretty much this.

 

[legolegs]

I don't care too much about rivals, basically I just want my club to win, not others to lose. That being said I certainly don't support teams just cause they play in the same league.. isn't that tribalism itself?

 

[SirAF]

Although I understand your point of view, I feel the opposite. I don't go as far as wishing death upon our rivals but I do wish them failure. The rivalray and the banter surrounding the sport itself is what makes it fun for me, without it the sport would be so much less interesting in my opinion.

This. Remember the intense rivalry with Arsenal? Of course you do! Those clashes were epic, and as Roy Keane said in that documentary with Vieira it was pure hatred between the players as well.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Personally I won't be entirely happy until Liverpool are relegated from the conference,
Bankrupt, closed down and consigned to a whining self absorbed footnote of history.

 

[Walrus]

Although I understand your point of view, I feel the opposite. I don't go as far as wishing death upon our rivals but I do wish them failure. The rivalray and the banter surrounding the sport itself is what makes it fun for me, without it the sport would be so much less interesting in my opinion.

I get this - all the banter is a lot of fun. Hell, a couple of days ago I heard a chant that Spurs sang at Arsenal recently and its been stuck in my head ever since, good stuff.
That said, the point of the sport should surely be what happens on the pitch, rather than off it. The whole celebrity culture with footballers bringing out their own clothing lines and shit is arguably another symptom of football being too "off the field" focused. For me, the most interesting thing should be us facing one of the top teams - the anticipation and hype before the Barcelona games for example was palpable, and that is without any "rivalry" thrown into the mix.

I don't care too much about rivals, basically I just want my club to win, not others to lose. That being said I certainly don't support teams just cause they play in the same league.. isn't that tribalism itself?

Fair point - I was going to reply with something about patriotism, but I suppose that is again just tribalism on a higher level again.

Personally I won't be entirely happy until Liverpool are relegated from the conference,
Bankrupt, closed down and consigned to a whining self absorbed footnote of history.

I wont deny that I have had more than one FM save where I have gone into the editor and just completely broken City and Liverpool, just so I can watch them fall apart over the years.

 

[Atze-Peng]

Point I am making here is that in most other walks of life - especially politics - tribalism and partisanship is frowned upon, and deemed a problem that needs to be fixed. But in sports - especially football - it is celebrated.

The luxury of wealth. Reduce wealth and security and tribalism will increase instantly. Having group-preferences is an inherent survival strategy of humans. We just managed to achieve enough wealth to not care (as much) about it anymore. That's also why most racist people come from the lower class - because they don't have the necessary amount of wealth and security to ignore group-preferences.

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

I used to "hate" Liverpool the same way I "hate" City (ie, not really, like a movie villain or something) but so many reasons to genuinely hate them have come up over my time watching football that I genuinely do now. They deserve nothing.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I feel people here have moved away from tribalism at least on red cafe in some sense. They seem to hate so much about our players. Normally you will defend and support your tribe while hating your enemies.
Also people keep praising City so bloody much here too and far too much praise for some Liverpool players like Salah and Van Dijk here.

So although most of us do support Man United we do not really care too much about the players working for us. We are mainly happy to just hire the best bunch of mercenaries to win our wars rather than develop our own heroes.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

The luxury of wealth. Reduce wealth and security and tribalism will increase instantly. Having group-preferences is an inherent survival strategy of humans. We just managed to achieve enough wealth to not care (as much) about it anymore. That's also why most racist people come from the lower class - because they don't have the necessary amount of wealth and security to ignore group-preferences.

Not sure it got to do with your standing. Much more to do about competing for things that brings it out. Even wealthy people can compete for resources. Although generally trading works better these days to increase wealth.

There is still a lot of tribal bias in politics too and in all areas of life. People hire friends and help them out while being nasty to people they dislike. Nationalism is fairly strong too in many areas.

 

[Rozay]

If you’re in the red corner you need someone in the blue corner. Football is similar to wrestling in that a large part of the appeal is in the ‘storyline’, as opposed to just the match. Some ‘big games’ over the years have had me on the edge of my seat with such high tension, although the quality was low. Similarly, watching the best players in the world play El Classico doesn’t move me emotionally as I have no horse in the race.

What I can say is that as I’ve matured I’ve learned to take losses and bad times better (although I was at my lowest for a long time after we failed to beat Southampton away in December). I appreciate the beauty in losing, and recognise that your rivals need to win too in order to protect the integrity of the rivalry. If the other team can’t have their moment, then the war loses its edge.

 

[WYRM]

I like to have some banter with Liverpool fans and I dislike the club but I don't hate the fans or wish them ill. People who physically fight others over something as irrelevant as football should get their head checked. Same is true for those Liverpool/Manchester United 'fans' taunting each other over Hillsborough or Munich.

As much schadenfreude as I will feel when Liverpool hopefully comes one point shy of the Premier League title tomorrow... if I saw some Liverpool supporter kid crying his eyes out over that missed opportunity, I'd still feel somewhat sorry for him.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Yep, I can't say I put a lot of personal energy into what teams who aren't United do. I usually stop caring about a competition when we're out of it, or just root for the underdog.

 

[Atze-Peng]

Not sure it got to do with your standing. Much more to do about competing for things that brings it out. Even wealthy people can compete for resources. Although generally trading works better these days to increase wealth.

There is still a lot of tribal bias in politics too and in all areas of life. People hire friends and help them out while being nasty to people they dislike. Nationalism is fairly strong too in many areas.

Competition for rich people is a bit different than for poor people. For rich people its about outcompeting and getting even more wealth. For poor people its about basic needs and living standard. Those are two very different starting points.

And obviously people prefer people they know and are close in their lifes. Personally I go so far to say tribalism is a biologically evolved survival strategy. Again, once ressource-sparity comes into play I take any bets that people are becoming way more tribalistic which also will mean more people becoming racist as in the end racism is nothing more than a very strong form of tribalism. Football or any other sportfans are just giving a means to express ones tribalism in a manner that does no harm to society. Who cares if fans chant at each other mean things. I certainly don't.

 

[Angry Virginian]

I feel people here have moved away from tribalism at least on red cafe in some sense. They seem to hate so much about our players. Normally you will defend and support your tribe while hating your enemies.

Money has change relationship between players and fans. Years ago, footballer were just one of us and gave it all in an attempt to make the fans happy and proud. Nowadays, some players make more money in one week than we do in 10 years while seemingly playing just for themselves and never care about the fans.

 

[langster]

I think the tribalism is what separates football from every other sport, but in a good way. Yes the bad way is the fighting side of it which still goes on every week, but just isn't reported as it's not in the grounds. But the fact remains that there is nothing like the atmosphere at football matches.

I've been to many different sporting events and followed rugby closely for years as my son played it. I hate the game but went to watch him or took him to games because he wanted to go. I could never understand how I would be sat there with loads of opposition fans surrounding me singing away. It's batshit insane and I think it takes away from every aspect of the experience of watching live matches.

I've been going to OT for over 30 years AND the only time I ever felt it was really going to go off was when Keown smacked RvN over the back of the head when he missed a penalty in the last minute. The place went silent and the atmosphere changed instantly but we never felt in danger. However I remember seeing West Ham v Plymouth in the early 90's and it kicked right off before, during and after with Hammers boys In the Plymouth end and Plymouth boys in the Hammers end. It was horrific and fecking scary.

Thankfully we have moved past that and it's incredibly safe in the grounds now, but I guarantee without the segregation the atmosphere would be lost. Football is different, it doesn't have to be thuggishly different, but rivalries have to be expected and are good.

Being pragmatic doesn't mean you have to forget your core values though. Yes City and Liverpool have been better and played some amazing football but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt!

Yes, seeing 4 English teams in the Euro finals is amazing but I despise the fact one of them is Liverpool.

I could never, ever, be happy about the Scousers winning anything. I feel indifferent about City winning because it's paid for and because nobody will remember it, the Scousers will never let you forget it. I couldn't even dream about football matches not being segregated like other sports and sat next to a dipper if they scored against us. I've had nightmares about them winning anything. You only hear from them when United are losing or they are winning. They truly have the worst supporters outside of Millwall.

Football has to remain tribal as without that it will completely lose its identity. Wages are killing the game as it is, losing its USP would be fecking devastating.

 

[njred]

I think there are so many different types of supporters in this global game that 50% at least do not have the hatred of years gone by. Maybe because teams like united are so popular globally that fans do not know or feel the rivalry that is Liverpool united. I suppose a lot of newer united supporters are too young and to remember Liverpool ruling Europe and England year after year and don't feel the panic that's has set in amongst the veterans. Chances are Liverpool won't win but for a few more hours it is very satisfying reading the shit show that might occur should number 19 happen. Should we not get the league then thank god we beat Barca is all I can say to make the next few weeks even more eventful

 

[Ooh2B]

Ever since the oil money came in and fecked the game, I’ve been barely able to muster enough emotion to care about football in general as much as I used to.

As an Everyman, I can’t identify with that world of Uber rich players and managers, (paying people off with millions for failure), and the £300k (10 years of salary for many) a week types who just can’t seem to be arsed half the time. The emotional investment and what’s nothing less than wealth transference just ain’t worth it anymore.

So if I find it hard to feel anything short of curiosity for my own team anymore, I’m certainly not going to invest any sort of emotion into other teams and their fans.

Have at er and enjoy your day out if your team is winning.

Everyone deserves a little joy every now and again.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Competition for rich people is a bit different than for poor people. For rich people its about outcompeting and getting even more wealth. For poor people its about basic needs and living standard. Those are two very different starting points.

And obviously people prefer people they know and are close in their lifes. Personally I go so far to say tribalism is a biologically evolved survival strategy. Again, once ressource-sparity comes into play I take any bets that people are becoming way more tribalistic which also will mean more people becoming racist as in the end racism is nothing more than a very strong form of tribalism. Football or any other sportfans are just giving a means to express ones tribalism in a manner that does no harm to society. Who cares if fans chant at each other mean things. I certainly don't.

Yes people can certainly change when under survival pressure. Not sure tribalism changes that much though. People are still giving more resources to there own kids and people close to them even if you are rich.
I almost feel like people become even more selfish the richer they are. Although they might focus a bit less on the groups as a result too since they don't need them as much.
There are very few people that would give up most of what they have to fight for the poor and if they do it then they normally do not risk starvation.
I guess under extreme circumstances like if you have to say sacrifice people under starvation people might want to kill the ones that share the lowest amounts of genes first and so racism becomes a factor then.

 

[Cloud7]

I personally don’t care for the tribalism in football anymore. I was passionate about it when I was younger but these days I just don’t see the point.

Football is an amazing sport and there’s tons of amazing football being played outside of United. Even when we were good, this was the case. For example, I can’t imagine not being able to enjoy watching the way Pep’s teams slice open other teams time and time again, just because he’s the manager of City. Don’t get me wrong, if they lose every match I will certainly be happy about it, but I don’t care to be bitter about them or Liverpool or anyone else really. Football is a sport that’s meant to be enjoyed. That’s what it represents for me.

 

[VeevaVee]

As soon as I started reading, I knew you hadn't grown up in the northwest. The rivalries take an extra edge when you've been surrounded by it and the jibes that come with it from day one. Rivalries are local and you're not gonna experience it the same unless you're there. All fun and games obviously, unless you're a wally, but there's genuine passion behind it. I can't be arsed putting any real value in the tribalism personally, other than having a bit of fun, but I do 'feel it' to an extent.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

An excellent post and I agree.

As a Blackburn fan I was used to seeing us being top dogs in East Lancashire (and Lancashire as a whole) and vastly superior to Burnley for a long time. Initially I was annoyed when Burnley overtook us pretty rapidly after Dyche took charge there. Now it doesn't really bother me that Burnley have been doing so well (overachieving given that they still have the 3rd lowest wage bill in the Premier League) and are far better than us. I accept it as part of the cyclical nature of football and sport, especially if you support a smaller club.

Sure I wanted to see Burnley getting relegated instead of Cardiff this season, to join us in the Championship and to revive the derby games, and I still want them to lose every match that they play in. I just don't have the time or energy to 'despise them' like I used to do, or blindly fail to give them credit where its due (and they deserve a lot of credit for their rise under Dyche).

Maybe a turning point was when they beat Liverpool 2-0 in their first home game of 2016/2017. Liverpool had 80% of possession but hardly created any clear cut chances or tested Tom Heaton. I found myself defending my club's historic arch rivals from some angry (and stupid) Liverpool fans that I work with, who were scathing about Burnley's style of play. I was putting aside club rivalries to stick up for a smaller club against some arrogant and delusional fans of a bigger club. I did need a shower afterwards though.

 

[KirkDuyt]

By the way, is taking the piss out of your rival supporting mates when they lost a match tribalism too? Because then I think it's great.

The part where someone actually thinks you can measure someone's worth over the club they supports does my head in.

I mean sure,all Ajax fans are arrogant cnuts, but that's just a coincidence probably.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

More power to you for moving past tribalism and into this zen-like oblivious territory of support where the rivals seemingly don't matter, but if that happened with me, IMO it would be connecting with an overarching detachment from the club.

• Tribalism is an extremely important part of sport.
• You cannot wish away decades and decades of history, tradition and attitudes just like that. When Manchester United and Liverpool have such a strong past, as have their fans, barring the odd person like you, nobody is going to wake up one morning and suddenly not care about that - unless they're losing the passion /interest in their club. I'd argue that these rivalries are part and parcel of the existence of Liveprool and Manchester United. Being two of the greatest football forced of England there is a natural rivalry that has been built over a long period. It isn't illogical, and it does make sense.
• Then there's that last part I alluded to - the two being rivals not just traditionally and emotionally but competitive rivals. We 20 league titles they have 18. To excel in any competitive environment at the highest level, not being the very best should string and hurt. If the clubs want to be the biggest in their land they have to have aspirations to be better than those around them. That naturally should truck down to the fans. So again, it's not unusual at all. And I'd argue that being unaffected by these things is more strange.
• On a more personal note, I feel sport is far more interested when you're emotionally invested rather than a mere spectator. I reckon many instinctively feel this way and hence are drawn towards the rivalries and the heated debates.

 

[Josh 76]

Personally I won't be entirely happy until Liverpool are relegated from the conference,
Bankrupt, closed down and consigned to a whining self absorbed footnote of history.

THIS x 10!

 

[Bestietom]

There will always be that hatred with Liverpool and United fans and in truth we all cause it.

 

[Swearing Budgie]

I do find the tribalism strange, especially when it is rarely shared by the managers and players.

What is a football club really? It is history I reckon.

We could all hate Liverpool, but what if we managed to Klopp in as manager and he brought a whole bunch of his players with him?

We would essentially be Liverpool in Utd shirts.

Would we hate ourselves in that case?

 

[Halds]

Personally I won't be entirely happy until Liverpool are relegated from the conference,
Bankrupt, closed down and consigned to a whining self absorbed footnote of history.

Nahhh.. You'd miss us if we disappeared.

 

[Swearing Budgie]

However, when watching a match not involving Utd, I always choose a team to support because without any kind of emotional investment its not as much fun to watch.

 

[Swearing Budgie]

Nahhh.. You'd miss us if we disappeared.

Totally agree. For the same reasons I hope Leeds get promoted.

 

[KirkDuyt]

More power to you for moving past tribalism and into this zen-like oblivious territory of support where the rivals seemingly don't matter, but if that happened with me, IMO it would be connecting with an overarching detachment from the club..

That's a good point, and in my case the truth honestly. I can still be bummed out over a loss, but it's usually over in a matter of minutes. I also miss more and more games. I say it's because of responsibilities etc, but it's also a case of not wanting to prioritize it as much as I used to.

I still love footy to death and take sides in every match I watch, but I don't live and breath Feyenoord anymore. Not since I outgrew my Gaston Taument growth poster.

 

[Focusmate]

It all means a bit more with some tribalism thrown in.
Theres probably an age / lifestyle thing that takes the edge away a bit too.
If your out with the kids most of the day then watch the match on tv vs out with your mates in the pub from 11 then going to the match.

 

[Walrus]

I feel people here have moved away from tribalism at least on red cafe in some sense. They seem to hate so much about our players. Normally you will defend and support your tribe while hating your enemies.
Also people keep praising City so bloody much here too and far too much praise for some Liverpool players like Salah and Van Dijk here.

So although most of us do support Man United we do not really care too much about the players working for us. We are mainly happy to just hire the best bunch of mercenaries to win our wars rather than develop our own heroes.

When I joined RedCafe about 10 years ago I certainly thought this. Over time though I feel like the atmosphere on here has gotten MORE tribal/less welcoming to certain oppo fans. It has essentially coincided with SAF going and us becoming shit. Easier to take the high ground when you are winning, I suppose. I do wonder what this place would be like in the unfortunate event that we “do a Liverpool” and fade into top-6ish obscurity, failing to win the league for 20 odd years (I bloody hope not, mind).

I also think a certain level of rivalry is entirely natural and justified. If you are competing with someone then they are your rival. Of course you want your side to win and theirs to lose, because it increases the odds of your team winning the league. This makes perfect sense. It’s the “arch nemesis” sort of storyline for me which I find strange. For me, our rivals are whoever our closest competitors are in the league.

 

[Cloud7]

By the way, is taking the piss out of your rival supporting mates when they lost a match tribalism too? Because then I think it's great.

That’s banter, which is part and parcel of being a football fan. Tribalism is where the banter genuinely bothers you and disturbs you and your emotional peace.