Not really. There will undoubtedly be moderate candidates who don't subscribe to whatever bullshit it is that the AKP is peddling, but that doesn't get you anywhere in a heavily divided country and certainly won't put you "in the running," so the only really successful way to be a muslim candidate is to be a corrupt asshole who'd drop his pants for RTE at a moment's notice.
Turkey
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So this is all about Gülen/Andrew Brunson and the likes or is there even more in play?
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The fact that Turkey's been buddying up to Russia in recent years is as significant as anything else, I'd say.
Has it? I thought they were at odds over the Russian intervention in Syria and the Russian raids against all anti-Assad groups including against groups of Turkic Syrians. I remember the Russian jet being shot down for crossing 1km into Turkish airspace and all that.
Has the tension from that simmered down? I’ll admit I’m not very up-to-date with Turko-Russian relations.
Yup. The Russian jet situation significantly soured relations, which was in 2015. About 8 months later, however, there was the attempted coup. My memory is hazy, but as far as I remember, Turkey soon made up with Russia and he and Putin became good friends again, despite the obvious differences in their plans for Syria. There was one rumour that it was Russia that tipped him off about the coup attempt, and even if that's not true, it's certainly true that America was growing tired of RTE, heightening the paranoia about America's intentions. Whatever it was, they definitely moved on from the jet situation and RTE's rhetoric towards America and Europe became increasingly hostile, culminating in what we have today.
I know nothing about turkey but I find that hard to believe. How can EVERY muslim politician be Erdogan level corrupt?
Turkey as a country has always confused me. People say it’s moderate but I’ve always found the country to be extreme. Either it is extreme in completely getting rid of its identity and just trying too hard to be European or it becomes crazy under Erdogan
Read it again. I said no such thing.
Any Turkish-speakers in here who can give me the gist of this thread?
@Fener1907 @Water Melon @Kopral Jono
I know it’s something to do with staff at the Ottoman archives in Istanbul being purged, but beyond that I’m lost (Turkish doesn’t seem to translate well online).
@Fener1907 @Water Melon @Kopral Jono
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I know it’s something to do with staff at the Ottoman archives in Istanbul being purged, but beyond that I’m lost (Turkish doesn’t seem to translate well online).
"If I name all of them one by one there will be no enough space here. The staff of the Ottoman archive under the prime minister's office, the very professionals who have many years of experience, who know each and every document in the archive have been pushed aside, unfortunately. It takes decades to become one of Sinan Çuluk, Hakkı İncebay, what a shame!"
This has been the tug of war in the fabric of Turkish society (at least politically) since the fall of the Ottoman empire. And they both fuel each other.
Thanks!
Why dissidents are gathering in Istanbul
A century after Turkey lost the Middle East, Istanbul is an Arab capital again
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/10/13/why-dissidents-are-gathering-in-istanbul
Great thread:
A century after Turkey lost the Middle East, Istanbul is an Arab capital again
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/10/13/why-dissidents-are-gathering-in-istanbul
Great thread:
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They'll be thrown in jail on trumped up charges.
Pretty big news from the local elections where, despite controlling 95% of the media and a campaign of intimidation, harassment and violence, the AKP have lost Ankara and it looks like Istanbul to the opposition, who have also retained Izmir. So the three biggest cities in the country (and a number of others such as Antalya) are in now opposition hands assuming Erdogan accepts the results.
Seems the key was the Kurdish HDP campaigning strategically in favor of the opposition CHP in those areas where they could tip the balance against the AKP, despite the long history of Kurdish-CHP hostility. Results may also be an indicator of a deepening urban-rural and/or east-west divide in the country, although too soon to draw any hard conclusions there.
Losing the capital and potentially Istanbul is a major symbolic blow for Erdogan, who used to be mayor of the latter. It’s been the AKP hands since 2002 and Islamist hands even longer. Let’s see how he responds.
(Edit): AKP still hold a slim majority nation-wide, which was the least that was expected.
Seems the key was the Kurdish HDP campaigning strategically in favor of the opposition CHP in those areas where they could tip the balance against the AKP, despite the long history of Kurdish-CHP hostility. Results may also be an indicator of a deepening urban-rural and/or east-west divide in the country, although too soon to draw any hard conclusions there.
Losing the capital and potentially Istanbul is a major symbolic blow for Erdogan, who used to be mayor of the latter. It’s been the AKP hands since 2002 and Islamist hands even longer. Let’s see how he responds.
(Edit): AKP still hold a slim majority nation-wide, which was the least that was expected.
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A week and a series of district recounts later, and Erdogan is still refusing to accept the Istanbul result:
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Isnt that pretty common in non developed countries? Okay Turkey may be developed but I've noticed in almost all of Asia and Africa the opponent never truly accepts the results and calls for a recount.
No genocide, colonialism in Turkey’s history: FM Çavuşoğlu
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-genocide-colonialism-in-turkeys-history-fm-cavusoglu-142673
Turks are proud of their history because they have not committed any genocide or partaken in colonialism, Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğluhas said, vowing the Turkish government will not stay silent against “some countries trying to lecture Turkey on history,” in reference to France and Italy’s recognition of the 1915 killings of Armenians as genocide.
“We are proud of our history because our historyhas never had any genocides. And no colonialism exists in our history,” Minister Çavuşoğlu addressed an event at Selçuk University in the Central Anatolian province of Konya on April 15.
Turkey will never take history lessons from those who have forgotten the history of their own countries and will not hesitate to give a lesson to those who dare question Turkey’s history, Çavuşoğlu said, indirectly recalling a quarrel he had with a French parliamentarian last week in the southern province of Antalya on the sidelines of a NATO parliamentary meeting.
“France is the last country which can lecture Turkey on genocide and history,” Çavuşoğlu had said, in response to a statement by French deputy Sonia Krimi. “France should mind its own dark history in Rwanda and Algeria,” he added.
Ties between Turkey and France have soured after French President Emmanuel Macron’s declaration of April 24 as a day to commemorate what Armenians call the 1915 Armenian Genocide. Italian parliamentarians also have proposed a motion for the recognition of the 1915 incidents as genocide, drawing Ankara’s harsh reaction.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-genocide-colonialism-in-turkeys-history-fm-cavusoglu-142673
Turks are proud of their history because they have not committed any genocide or partaken in colonialism, Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğluhas said, vowing the Turkish government will not stay silent against “some countries trying to lecture Turkey on history,” in reference to France and Italy’s recognition of the 1915 killings of Armenians as genocide.
“We are proud of our history because our historyhas never had any genocides. And no colonialism exists in our history,” Minister Çavuşoğlu addressed an event at Selçuk University in the Central Anatolian province of Konya on April 15.
Turkey will never take history lessons from those who have forgotten the history of their own countries and will not hesitate to give a lesson to those who dare question Turkey’s history, Çavuşoğlu said, indirectly recalling a quarrel he had with a French parliamentarian last week in the southern province of Antalya on the sidelines of a NATO parliamentary meeting.
“France is the last country which can lecture Turkey on genocide and history,” Çavuşoğlu had said, in response to a statement by French deputy Sonia Krimi. “France should mind its own dark history in Rwanda and Algeria,” he added.
Ties between Turkey and France have soured after French President Emmanuel Macron’s declaration of April 24 as a day to commemorate what Armenians call the 1915 Armenian Genocide. Italian parliamentarians also have proposed a motion for the recognition of the 1915 incidents as genocide, drawing Ankara’s harsh reaction.
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Turkey to rerun vote in Istanbul following opposition win
Turkey's electoral body has ordered that Istanbul's local elections be re-held after a shock opposition victory in March.
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's AK Party questioned the slim win by the opposition CHP, claiming there were "irregularities and corruption".
CHP deputy chair Onursal Adiguzel said the rerun showed it was "illegal to win against the AK Party".
The vote will be held in Turkey's largest city on 23 June.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48177740
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For fecks sake.
And yet we have a President behind that state department who did nothing when Erdogan s thugs beat up American citizens and clearly is following a very similar authoritarian style of governing and probably would like to many of the things he hasn't been able to get away with in the US *yet*. Hell - the drilling is something he tried to do here and still is. Fortunately so far our judiciary has sort of been able to keep the extremes in check but the more the courts get stacked the more we're entering Turkey territory.
What a freaking idiot Erdogan is. Represents yet another serious threat to Turkish democracy and unfortunately adds more credence to the thought that Islamists cannot function in a democratic system and will not give up power through the ballot box.
Turkey to rerun vote in Istanbul following opposition win
Turkey's electoral body has ordered that Istanbul's local elections be re-held after a shock opposition victory in March.
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's AK Party questioned the slim win by the opposition CHP, claiming there were "irregularities and corruption".
CHP deputy chair Onursal Adiguzel said the rerun showed it was "illegal to win against the AK Party".
The vote will be held in Turkey's largest city on 23 June.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48177740
Which unfortunately leaves the Middle East in quite a pickle, to put it mildly.
The caveat to the above is that I'm reading there are quite a few in the AKP who aren't on board with this and the AKP candidate was apparently ready to admit defeat, until someone (?Erdogan himself) convinced him otherwise. The caveat to the caveat is that...if there are enough AKP who think this, why not say or do something about it?
Pakistan? Tbf, Pakistan is a very conservative country.
Islamist parties have never held power in Pakistan.
I know the military weild the most of it but don't a number of the parties draw support from Islamists?
Pakistan has had its own troubles with democracy as well.
Draw support, sure. But the major parties which have historically dominated politics in Pakistan have been based around large land-owning and/or industrial families, i.e. the Sharifs and Bhuttos, and have been ideologically flexible/pragmatic. Pakistani society being what it is, they all must claim to be working in the interests of Islam, but that doesn't necessarily make them Islamists in the way the term is largely understood today. The major Islamist party, the Jamaat-e-Islami, has never fared well in elections, and was at its most influential under the military regime of Zia ul-Haq.
Thanks.
Is Istanbul safe to travel to currently?
Absolutely. You thinking of going?
Someone asked if I wanted to go for a short break.
If you haven't been before you should definitely go. There's nowhere in the world quite like it.
Any places you specifically recommend? Been thinking of a planning a trip there for a while now.
In an East meets West kind of sense?
It's a cliche but yes, that's definitely a huge part of it. You can get that feel in parts of the Balkans, Lebanon and Israel too (and I'd assume Russia though I've never been), but not quite as natural (if that makes sense?) as in Istanbul. Then there is the magnificent setting on the Bosporus and Golden Horn, the sheer scale of the place, the weight of its history, the food, the vibrant buzz, the people. I could go on. It all adds up to a unique place.
All the obvious tourist sites around Sultanahmet and the Grand Bazaar are worth seeing, as are the more modern neighborhoods around the main shopping street Istiklal Cadessi and Taksim Square with the bars and restaurants. Most tourists on a short visit only really get to see these two areas, as apart from the sites they're where most of the hotels are. Apart from those:
Eyüp is a neighborhood at the top of the Golden Horn centred around a mosque/shrine dedicated to a companion of the Prophet Muhammad. It's really worth visiting to get a feel for the spiritual/religious side of modern Turkey which can often be forgotten about on a short visit to Istanbul. If you end up there during Ramadan (just started), it's a great place to go to break the fast in the evening as the shrine area is surrounded by street-side restaurants. From Eyüp you can take a cable car up the hill to the Pierre Loti cafe for views down the Golden Horn over the entire city.
Close to Eyüp a little way east along the Golden Horn you see the start of the old Byzantine Walls of the city which stretch all the way south to the Sea of Marmara. At the north end there are some Sufi shrines dedicated to more minor Islamic figures, these are worth checking out if you've the time and interest. You can then follow the walls all the way south, I spent a whole day doing this once, it's a long walk especially in the sun. There are stretches where you can actually walk along the top of the walls (with great views), but mostly you have to follow along the east or west side, through loads of traditional neighborhoods you'd never visit otherwise. There are some sites to see along the walk, such as the Chora Church, the new Panoramic 1453 Museum dedicated to the Ottoman conquest, and the old pigeon market.
Other neighborhoods I enjoyed wandering around were Fatih, (a conservative area west of the Grand Bazaar/University area where you can regularly stumble on to some ancient building which would be the number one tourist attraction in most other cities but in Istanbul barely gets any attention; Ortakoy, a little bit up the Bosporus by the massive Bosporus Bridge, there are some good restaurants and bars in the area around the square here; Beşiktaş which is a little further south of Ortakoy so closer to the centre, it seemed a bit busier then Ortakoy with loads more bars and cheaper shopping areas; and Kadıköy over on the little-visited Asian side of the Bosporus, there is a really vibrant, busy buzz around the main area back from the old Hadarpasa Train station and port area.
Then there are the day trips by boat - you can go all the way up the Bosporus to the Black Sea on a day trip, or over to the Princes Islands. Both are well worth your time. And I'd also recommend the military museum north of Taksim, they put on a little show every day I seem to remember with a band doing old marching tunes.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/...ers-come-out-against-election-re-run-istanbul
AKP heavyweights come out against election rerun in Istanbul
Abdullah Gul and Ahmet Davutoglu take to Twitter in rebuke against electoral board's contentious decision
Some dissent from within the party.
Also a little observation to lighten the mood in a very serious and sad situation. Is it just me that thinks Gul looks like an older, Turkish Clooney and Davutoglu like he should be in a pixar film?
AKP heavyweights come out against election rerun in Istanbul
Abdullah Gul and Ahmet Davutoglu take to Twitter in rebuke against electoral board's contentious decision
Some dissent from within the party.
Also a little observation to lighten the mood in a very serious and sad situation. Is it just me that thinks Gul looks like an older, Turkish Clooney and Davutoglu like he should be in a pixar film?
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