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KirkDuyt

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I think the outrage is a bit selective, Should all protestant churches give their church back to the roman catholic church too since that's what they originally were? Mehmet 2 conquered the Byzantines and turned it into a mosque, tough luck. This smells a bit like, grrrr Islam is bad, stop spreading more Islam.

Ideally, you would make it a place where people of all religions are allowed to worship and Atheists are allowed to come admire the tiles and shite, but such pragmatism doesn't really compute within the religious of the world.

Obviously just a populist move by uncle Erdo to rally his base. Populists are starting to become so very tiresome.
 

africanspur

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I think the outrage is a bit selective, Should all protestant churches give their church back to the roman catholic church too since that's what they originally were? Mehmet 2 conquered the Byzantines and turned it into a mosque, tough luck. This smells a bit like, grrrr Islam is bad, stop spreading more Islam.

Ideally, you would make it a place where people of all religions are allowed to worship and Atheists are allowed to come admire the tiles and shite, but such pragmatism doesn't really compute within the religious of the world.

Obviously just a populist move by uncle Erdo to rally his base. Populists are starting to become so very tiresome.
I do also agree with this though. Certainly seems to me that this has gathered more attention in UK media than the Ayodhya temple did for example.

I think from what I've read so far they seem to be saying parts of it will still be left open for tourism (and in fact from memory, most Turkish mosques were open for tourists other than during prayer times anyway) but we'll have to see what happens.
 

Relevated

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It was originally a church and its previous state was that of a museum.

What's the need to turn it into a mosque ? Are there suddenly no mosques in istanbul for muslims to pray in ?

Whats wrong in handing it over to the christians ?



I would assume its owned by the state ? Isn't the state supposed to be secular ?

Common there is absolutely no harm to Islam or to the muslims in restoring it as a church. On the other hand it could actually bring both the religions closer and make a better world not to mention the goodwill it will generate. At the end of the day its a political move (to bolster the image of the president domestically) and nothing to do with religion.
Did you know that sultan mehmed purchased it? Like, lawfully....

Then it was unlawfully turned into a museum. So what's the issue?
 

2cents

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There’s a few different aspects of this to consider when trying to understand its significance.

First is the obvious symbolism of the action at this particular place and moment in time. Whether one shares the view or not, the reality of the current situation is that too many people in today’s world view Christian-Western/Muslim relations through the prism of the Clash of Civilizations, an ongoing confrontation which, for those inclined, dates back to the advent of Islam. The battle over Constantinople/Istanbul has been a key symbol of this supposed Clash. Much of Erdogan’s rhetoric and action suggests this is the basic historical framework by which he understands his role as the President of modern Turkey, and it would be naive to think it hasn’t played into his calculations. The building was the greatest Church on earth for close to 1,000 years at the heart of the greatest Christian empire and successor to (or continuation of) the Roman Empire. So this move has been made in the knowledge that it will be viewed by many as an act of aggression/provocation or triumph, depending on which ‘side’ of the Clash one stands.

Second is the precedent it draws on and sets in terms of analogous disputes over religious sites globally. While each case has its own historical and contemporary dynamic, there are obvious parallels to be drawn with sites such as those at Ayodhya, Córdoba, and Jerusalem/Hebron. I wonder if/how much the recent Ayodhya ruling impacted Erdogan’s decision here? Perhaps very little. He can also point to Córdoba for precedence. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe he hasn’t considered the potential impact of this on Jerusalem, where Jewish fundamentalists will surely be thinking in terms of how his justification may be used in their campaign for a third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount, perhaps in place of the al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock. Which means that he has determined that the inevitable fall-out is either worth it or desirable.

Finally there is the question of how it relates to the unresolved legacies of Ottoman rule in the Balkans and Anatolia. The last century or so of Ottoman rule in/withdrawal from these regions involved ethnic cleansing of both Muslims and Christians on a mass scale, and concurrent mutual destruction of religious sites. The cleansing of Christians from Anatolia, especially during and after WW1, is by now quite well known in the West and often used as a stick to beat modern Turkey with. What is much less known about in the West is the expulsion of Muslims from the Caucasus/Crimea and the Balkans due to Russian expansion in the former and national independence movements in the latter. These refugees ended up sprawled across Anatolia and Ottoman Syria, and their descendants make up a considerable percentage of the population of modern-day Turkey. Yet there is virtually no recognition of their plight in Europe today, or of the fate of their mosques in places like Greece. We know for certain that this aspect played into Erdogan’s thinking, as he has explicitly referred to it. Of course Turkey’s own intransigent position on the Armenian genocide has been perhaps the major obstacle to facing these legacies, but perhaps if there had been a genuine campaign for mutual recognition of the suffering endured by all the peoples of these regions during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, modern day Turks would be more receptive to a dialogue based on mutual respect for the conflicting religious traditions.
 
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2cents

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Reports of a big explosion on Istanbul’s main shopping street Istiklal Caddesi today, unfortunately there are fatalities.
 

2cents

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Moment of the explosion:

 

Amar__

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Oh shit, that street is always crowded. Apparently 11 dead?
 

2cents

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This seems to be an escalation in Erdogan’s repression of opposition figures, which has previously mostly been reserved for HDP (i.e. Kurdish) politicians:

 

Foxbatt

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This seems to be an escalation in Erdogan’s repression of opposition figures, which has previously mostly been reserved for HDP (i.e. Kurdish) politicians:

He doesn't seem to have any sense of humour does he?
 

2cents

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Elections next month are shaping up to be the biggest challenge Erdogan has faced at the polls. The opposition candidate Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu apparently has a slim lead in the polls but not enough to put him over 50%, meaning a runoff is likely. Meanwhile he has come out and broken something of a taboo in Turkish politics by proudly stating his Alevi identity:

 

2cents

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What are the politics of this Kılıçdaroğlu fella?
Dunno much about him personally but he’s in the Kemalist party, the CHP/RPP that ruled Turkey until 1950 and intermittently after that. So secular agenda, pragmatic foreign policy, no real ideological economic approach. A potentially interesting thing about him though is that as a member of the Alevi religious minority to which a considerable number of Kurds (and Turks) also belong, he may be a figure with the ability to reach across that classic ethnic divide that has been the main source of domestic tension in modern Turkish history.
 

2cents

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Some polls as we approach Sunday’s vote:


 

HTG

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Just wondering. But wasn’t the English spelling changed to Türkiye?
 

Fener1907

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The general feeling in Turkey is that Kılıçdaroğlu has it, and the poll from ORC is the one that many were waiting for, which doesn't suggest it's even close enough to spin an opposition narrative of "the polls were only slightly off, so of course we had it."

Just wondering. But wasn’t the English spelling changed to Türkiye?
"Hey, English speakers. Here's how the country name is written in our own language with that weird letter you don't have. Now you can pronounce it incorrectly. You're welcome."
 

MadMike

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Just wondering. But wasn’t the English spelling changed to Türkiye?
Βut isn't that an oxymoron? The English spelling can't be Türkiye, because there's no umlaut in English. No way to type ü in English keyboard without copying it from somewhere else. Isn't it like saying that the English spelling for Russia is Россия?

PS. I understand changing the English name from Turkey, to separate form the bird, but in my humble opinion they should have gone for Turkia. The -a doesn't sound too different from -ye in the word and countries with names ending in -ia are very common and easily pronounced. Like Bosnia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia, Lithuania, Czechia... I could go on for ever.
 
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The general feeling in Turkey is that Kılıçdaroğlu has it, and the poll from ORC is the one that many were waiting for, which doesn't suggest it's even close enough to spin an opposition narrative of "the polls were only slightly off, so of course we had it."
Do you think Erdogan will accept defeat? Really hope there's no trouble after the weekend. Good luck to you all. :)
 

groovyalbert

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Do you think Erdogan will accept defeat? Really hope there's no trouble after the weekend. Good luck to you all. :)
Aren't they already lining up the excuse that not enough people from earthquake hit regions couldn't register? I'm sure this is going to go really smoothly...
 

Fener1907

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Do you think Erdogan will accept defeat? Really hope there's no trouble after the weekend. Good luck to you all. :)
He'll never accept it, but having to go along with it could well be another matter, a bit like certain other former leaders in the last few years. People are pessimistic and doubt if it can happen, but they need to remember how Istanbul and Ankara both flipped in 2019, and anybody writing those victories off as minor ones really underestimate how badly he wanted to hold onto Istanbul and the lengths he went to in order to keep it.
 

MoskvaRed

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I find it hard to believe that the incumbent will give up power voluntarily but I hope for the best on Sunday.
 

Pintu

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Is it about this ?

“Wow... "World leader" Tayyip Erdogan threatened to close Twitter in order to block my account. A "world leader" is afraid of a journalist. You are actually that weak. As long as you can stand up straight.”

 

Sir Matt

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He'll never accept it, but having to go along with it could well be another matter, a bit like certain other former leaders in the last few years. People are pessimistic and doubt if it can happen, but they need to remember how Istanbul and Ankara both flipped in 2019, and anybody writing those victories off as minor ones really underestimate how badly he wanted to hold onto Istanbul and the lengths he went to in order to keep it.
Any concern that, if it's close, he tries to do what he did in Istanbul and force a re-vote under false pretenses?
 

Fener1907

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Any concern that, if it's close, he tries to do what he did in Istanbul and force a re-vote under false pretenses?
If no candidate gets 50%, it goes to a second round two weeks later anyway.

If Kılıçdaroğlu gets over by even just a little bit, I don't see there being any recount. The illusion of omnipotence is very important to enforce such things, and himself failing to acquire the mandate automatically shatters that perception, emboldening the the election council to refuse, something I believe has already happened. Hopefully I'm right. Not long to go now.
 

Morty_

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Right-wing authoritarians often overperform the polls, i expect Erdogan to do the same, hope i'm wrong though.
 

2cents

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Voting just finished. From what I’ve read, it’s expected for Erdogan-supporting regions in the east and centre to come through first, with the western and coastal regions, expected to favor the opposition, coming later.
 

Jev

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Voting just finished. From what I’ve read, it’s expected for Erdogan-supporting regions in the east and centre to come through first, with the western and coastal regions, expected to favor the opposition, coming later.
When is a solid prognosis expected?
 

2cents

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When is a solid prognosis expected?
Think after around 9pm Turkish time the official results will start coming through, with more solid indicators emerging a few hours after. Expected to be very close.
 

RoadTrip

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Voting just finished. From what I’ve read, it’s expected for Erdogan-supporting regions in the east and centre to come through first, with the western and coastal regions, expected to favor the opposition, coming later.
Looks like early results favour Erdogan? Which seems to be in line with this. The question moreso is, his marginal advantage - and whether this indicates better or worse performance to polls? Anything on this?