UK Policing

[Zlatattack]

The lack of self awareness here is staggering tbh. You’re literally accusing me of doing exactly what you did.

Doesn't make him wrong though.

 

[arnie_ni]

The Manchester bomber was dressed in all black and had a bulky backpack. He was an Asian male. He wasn’t stopped because security didn’t want to be seen as racist.
If he had been stopped there could conceivably have been similar outrage of stereotyping

Well this is why it's such a difficult issue, stop and search.

Anytime a stop and search no matter how questionable actually leads to something taken of the streets, we all see the benefits of it. But how many times does a stop yield nothing like the above video for every time its successful.

If that guy had a gun or a knife there probably wouldn't be any outrage but you can't just stop someone because they are black in a bad neighbourhood with a coat.

Edit you can, but you shouldn't be allowed to.

 

[Zlatattack]

The Manchester bomber was dressed in all black and had a bulky backpack. He was an Asian male. He wasn’t stopped because security didn’t want to be seen as racist.
If he had been stopped there could conceivably have been similar outrage of stereotyping

He was African. Libya is in Africa.

Also young people carry backpacks. They contain things like gym clothes, school books, packed lunches. It's completely normal.

 

[arnie_ni]

I bet they didn’t even apologise to him after finding nothing on him. Bastards. And I’m not surprised to see one of the resident feds in here justifying it. That’s what they do. They may not be a Bad Apple™ their self but God forbid they call out their colleagues’ abuse of power.

He literally said he doesn't agree with law a post or 2 up

 

[NotThatSoph]

He literally said he doesn't agree with law a post or 2 up

I don't think that's true. The policy in question is not that police are allowed to "arrest people for wearing coats", which is what @TheReligion says they should not be allowed to do. First of all the guy (who was clearly racially profiled) didn't get arrested for wearing a coat, he was stopped and possibly detained. Second of all, even if we're talking stops rather than arrests, he says in #96 that he doesn't think the guy was detained for wearing a coat, and in #102 that clothing can be a contributing factor; my interpretation being that he's saying they're not stopping people only for wearing coats.

He also calls the policy controversial, and may very well disagree with it, but I don't think that has been said so far.

 

[arnie_ni]

I don't think that's true. The policy in question is not that police are allowed to "arrest people for wearing coats", which is what @TheReligion says they should not be allowed to do. First of all the guy (who was clearly racially profiled) didn't get arrested for wearing a coat, he was stopped and possibly detained. Second of all, even if we're talking stops rather than arrests, he says in #96 that he doesn't think the guy was detained for wearing a coat, and in #102 that clothing can be a contributing factor; my interpretation being that he's saying they're not stopping people only for wearing coats.

He also calls the policy controversial, and may very well disagree with it, but I don't think that has been said so far.

Ah maybe a misunderstanding on my part then but I was asking what his thoughts were on a policy that allows you to stop someone for wearing coat when its warm, maybe I just didn't word my question correctly.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Ah maybe a misunderstanding on my part then but I was asking what his thoughts were on a policy that allows you to stop someone for wearing coat when its warm, maybe I just didn't word my question correctly.

@TheReligion hasn't stated whether he whether stop and search laws should be as loose as wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong area, however he has said that being stopped for wearing the wrong clothes shouldn't happen.

This guy was in a "known drug dealing area" whatever that means, and was wearing clothes "unsuitable for the weather", so he got stopped. TheReligion explained that this was enough to be detained under the misuse of drugs act. The guy was detained, searched and released. I don't agree that those grounds should be enough for stop and search.

If they do want this to be the bar, every cop in Newcastle should be stop and searching young white women every Friday and Saturday night on every high street from about September to May.

 

[TheReligion]

I’m not going to reply to each individual comment but I think I’ve been pretty clear. The headline was sensationalist as per. Law states you can use such grounds as part of stop search but the issue with the legislation is its very subjective which is highlighted by the comments here.

There’s two sides to everything of course and jumping to the immediate conclusion of racial profiling without understanding the law and having knowledge of the full encounter is quite naive.

Stop search is controversial yes. I’ve seen the benefits and I’ve also seen how misuse can damage community confidence. It’s a fine line and ultimately a lot of responsibility placed on officers. Targeting people based on previous convictions, race, religion etc is banned. That said if there’s a current and specific crime issue within an area whereby recent intelligence is telling you X,Y and Z and then you add to that other things you may well end up with grounds to stop someone, engage with them and search.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Mate, you've explained what stop and search is, and that quite a lot is left up to the officers, but are two contributing factors, clothing and location, enough to stop and search?

I find the "location" criteria disturbing. Low value drug dealing happens on every town street in the UK, what makes this particular side street a hot spot? Are million pound drug deals happening there, I doubt it. The stop wasn't for knives, it was was for drugs, so why isn't every person on every high street on Friday and Saturday night being stopped and searched? Far higher chance of finding drugs than random people walking through a side street in the day?

The application of this law is racist, or we would see white people, by far the largest population in the UK, stopped and searched 3 out of every 4 times they go on a night out.

 

[TheReligion]

Mate, you've explained what stop and search is, and that quite a lot is left up to the officers, but are two contributing factors, clothing and location, enough to stop and search?

I find the "location" criteria disturbing. Low value drug dealing happens on every town street in the UK, what makes this particular side street a hot spot? Are million pound drug deals happening there, I doubt it. The stop wasn't for knives, it was was for drugs, so why isn't every person on every high street on Friday and Saturday night being stopped and searched? Far higher chance of finding drugs than random people walking through a side street in the day?

The application of this law is racist, or we would see white people, by far the largest population in the UK, stopped and searched 3 out of every 4 times they go on a night out.

I’m not sure why you’re asking me these things tbh. More chance of finding recreational drug users in a town centre? Sure. Does that mean drug dealing doesn’t happen elsewhere? No. Both high and low value.

 

[Sara125]

I’m not going to reply to each individual comment but I think I’ve been pretty clear. The headline was sensationalist as per. Law states you can use such grounds as part of stop search but the issue with the legislation is its very subjective which is highlighted by the comments here.

There’s two sides to everything of course and jumping to the immediate conclusion of racial profiling without understanding the law and having knowledge of the full encounter is quite naive.

Stop search is controversial yes. I’ve seen the benefits and I’ve also seen how misuse can damage community confidence. It’s a fine line and ultimately a lot of responsibility placed on officers. Targeting people based on previous convictions, race, religion etc is banned. That said if there’s a current and specific crime issue within an area whereby recent intelligence is telling you X,Y and Z and then you add to that other things you may well end up with grounds to stop someone, engage with them and search.

Two sides to what? They literally said right there in that video why they’re detaining him (btw they did end up detaining him in handcuffs while they searched his pockets- I watched the part 2 on his TikTok). I doubt he was the only one wearing a coat out yesterday (it wasn’t that hot. I wore a light tracksuit and by 5pm ended up thinking I could’ve put on something on top of it ). I also doubt that they had a reason other than “he’s a black man in a certain area therefore he must have something to hide by wearing a coat.”

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I’m not sure why you’re asking me these things tbh. More chance of finding recreational drug users in a town centre? Sure. Does that mean drug dealing doesn’t happen elsewhere? No. Both high and low value.

What I mean is ethnic minority areas are disproportionately targeted for stop and search. Ergo ethnic minorities are disproportionately stop and searched.

The police are using the excuse of location to target ethnic minorities

 

[TheReligion]

What I mean is ethnic minority areas are disproportionately targeted for stop and search. Ergo ethnic minorities are disproportionately stop and searched.

The police are using the excuse of location to target ethnic minorities

There’s plenty of work to do with stop and search however things are improving with the independent scrutiny panels and the Best Use Scheme which I think pretty much every force is now signed up to.

I think generalising by saying ‘the police’ suggests everyone is using it disproportionately which is incorrect. It can fluctuate massively depending on the demographic of the areas in question.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

There’s plenty of work to do with stop and search however things are improving with the independent scrutiny panels and the Best Use Scheme which I think pretty much every force is now signed up to.

I think generalising by saying ‘the police’ suggests everyone is using it disproportionately which is incorrect. It can fluctuate massively depending on the demographic of the areas in question.

Ok then bud, what about your force, what are the stop and search rates by race and what is the demographic split?

Look mate, I'm definitely not saying that you are racist, but the system you work in is. If the law says location and clothing are enough, why are locations predominantly in ethnic minority areas? I would say that high streets have way drugs than side streets and side streets in white areas have the same amount of drugs as ethnic minority areas

 

[TheReligion]

Ok then bud, what about your force, what are the stop and search rates by race and what is the demographic split?

Look mate, I'm definitely not saying that you are racist, but the system you work in is. If the law says location and clothing are enough, why are locations predominantly in ethnic minority areas? I would say that high streets have way drugs than side streets and side streets in white areas have the same amount of drugs as ethnic minority areas

Well certain areas of my force have a demographic of 98% white British. As such you’d expect the vast majority of stop search encounters to be within that demographic. Other areas are more mixed and others have a minority amount of white British residents. It’s all relevant to the specific areas which I’m sure you’ll agree?

Data is great but you have to look at more than just that and more specifically the context.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Well certain areas of my force have a demographic of 98% white British. As such you’d expect the vast majority of stop search encounters to be within that demographic. Other areas are more mixed and others have a minority amount of white British residents. It’s all relevant to the specific areas which I’m sure you’ll agree?

Data is great but you have to look at more than just that and more specifically the context.

Of course the demographics are relevant, but that doesn't mean ethnic minorities aren't disproportionately targeted. For example, in those 98% white areas, are 98% of the stop and searches on white people, and if not, why not?

 

[TheReligion]

Of course the demographics are relevant, but that doesn't mean ethnic minorities aren't disproportionately targeted. For example, in those 98% white areas, are 98% of the stop and searches on white people, and if not, why not?

These are the kind of things that are reviewed with disproportionate data flagged and investigated. The processes are all there however as said still plenty of work to do.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

The Manchester bomber was dressed in all black and had a bulky backpack. He was an Asian male. He wasn’t stopped because security didn’t want to be seen as racist.
If he had been stopped there could conceivably have been similar outrage of stereotyping

Asian/African who cares.

All brown people look alike, eh mate?

They should just be allowed to stop and search any coloured person just incase.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

These are the kind of things that are reviewed with disproportionate data flagged and investigated. The processes are all there however as said still plenty of work to do.

You didn't answer my question, what are the rates in your force? Is it 98% white in 98% white areas?

 

[TheReligion]

You didn't answer my question, what are the rates in your force? Is it 98% white in 98% white areas?

You can’t expect me to know all of the data surely? I’m not sure where we are going with this anymore tbh and think I’ve been pretty reasonable.

 

[Rado_N]

Went for a walk through Manchester just now, police must be run off the feet with all the feckers in coats in this weather.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

The Manchester bomber was dressed in all black and had a bulky backpack. He was an Asian male. He wasn’t stopped because security didn’t want to be seen as racist.
If he had been stopped there could conceivably have been similar outrage of stereotyping

This is just daft.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

You can’t expect me to know all of the data surely? I’m not sure where we are going with this anymore tbh and think I’ve been pretty reasonable.

You have been, and as I said before, I think you're a great poster and a great resource. No, i don't expect you to have all the data, but from our perspective, the focus is on us, not our next door neighbour who is white

 

[TheReligion]

Went for a walk through Manchester just now, police must be run off the feet with all the feckers in coats in this weather.

Its mainly the rapes, murders, domestic violence and missing children that keep us busy. Appreciate your concern though!

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Its mainly the rapes, murders, domestic violence and missing children that keep us busy. Appreciate your concern though!

Does stop and search help you stop those?

 

[TheReligion]

Does stop and search help you stop those?

Not really no

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Not really no

So what's the point of them? Picking up teenagers who smoke pot?

 

[TheReligion]

So what's the point of them? Picking up teenagers who smoke pot?

Do you not know anything about the powers really? Happy to explain further if you like

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Do you not know anything about the powers really? Happy to explain further if you like

No need to be patronising, I just think being detained and bodily searched is an intrusion that causes trauma way in excess of the crimes that are being talked about. You said that it didn't help in rapes, murders, domestic violence and missing children, what other crimes are you stopping and searching for? Fraud? Identity theft? Dog fighting gangs?

Have you been stopped and searched or have you only done it to other people? Not being funny but you said earlier that a lot is left to the officer's discretion. Where there are intrusive powers with that much discretion, being on the receiving side of it shows that discretion is being taken advantage of.

The scrutiny that you talk of only happens after a complaint I'd imagine or are the body cams of every stop and search reviewed?

 

[TheReligion]

No need to be patronising, I just think being detained and bodily searched is an intrusion that causes trauma way in excess of the crimes that are being talked about. You said that it didn't help in rapes, murders, domestic violence and missing children, what other crimes are you stopping and searching for? Fraud? Identity theft? Dog fighting gangs?

Have you been stopped and searched or have you only done it to other people? Not being funny but you said earlier that a lot is left to the officer's discretion. Where there are intrusive powers with that much discretion, being on the receiving side of it shows that discretion is being taken advantage of.

The scrutiny that you talk of only happens after a complaint I'd imagine or are the body cams of every stop and search reviewed?

When you look at what the object of searches can be you’ll get an idea as to what offences; think burglary, theft, bladed articles, offensive weapons etc (the MODA covers drugs)

I’ve been stop and searched. Twice actually. One good experience one bad. I’ve also been stop searched on the continent and was basically beaten up by the police and sent on my way. I’ve also stop and searched plenty of people myself.

Searches are dip samples and all records reviewed. From experience the independent panels can pick exactly what they want to look at.

 

[Wilt]

Anyone know how police are regarded in other European countries, ie, is stop and search unique to British police?

How do other European police forces deal with drugs, knives, assault etc?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

When you look at what the object of searches can be you’ll get an idea as to what offences; think burglary, theft, bladed articles, offensive weapons etc (the MODA covers drugs)

I’ve been stop and searched. Twice actually. One good experience one bad. I’ve also been stop searched on the continent and was basically beaten up by the police and sent on my way. I’ve also stop and searched plenty of people myself.

Searches are dip samples and all records reviewed. From experience the independent panels can pick exactly what they want to look at.

The guy who was searched was searched under MODA, and this is where I think the system is at its most racist.

Of course stop and search will help specifically with knife crime, offensive weapons shouldn't be on the streets ever because one misuse of them can be deadly.

But then, the stop and search should be for specific individuals who are known to be carrying them, using detective work to find out who they are then stop and search to catch them in the process of the crime, carrying an offensive weapon.

It shouldn't be used as a deterrent, stop and search enough people and the bad guys will be scared of carrying something. The bad guys won't, they'll just be more creative in transporting the weapons that you need, and if you're going to do that, why not a gun?

As for MODA stops, those are being used in a racist way. Firstly, you can smell cannabis on every second street in every city in the UK, but the "problem drug areas" are invariably in poorer, ethnic minority areas.

I've lived all around the UK, in some very well to do areas and some pretty rough areas, I don't look out of place in either, and you don't get stopped and searched anywhere near as much in white areas, and it's not just my personal experience that says this.

On top of that, where is the cultural understanding? Over the last 10/20 years there has been a shift towards tighter clothing for men, especially jeans, except in certain cultures, so if someone's walking around in a large coat when it's warm but not hot, they're possibly from one of these cultures.

Not every body like the shape of their body to be displayed. In the case of the young man arrested, it looked like his puffer jacket was designed to make him look muscly. If it made him slightly uncomfortable to wear it in that weather as a payoff for a more impressive silhouette, isn't that his choice? Do you think women who wear high heels are trying to avoid detection by altering their height?

The problem with this scrutiny that you're talking about is that the lines you've drawn for what is acceptable are arbitrary. Large jacket in warm weather: smuggling drugs, skimpy clothing in subzero temperatures: not soliciting prostitution.

Until the way stop and search is being used is drastically altered and its used limited to very specific circumstances, it will always be used as a racist tool.

 

[TheReligion]

The guy who was searched was searched under MODA, and this is where I think the system is at its most racist.

Of course stop and search will help specifically with knife crime, offensive weapons shouldn't be on the streets ever because one misuse of them can be deadly.

But then, the stop and search should be for specific individuals who are known to be carrying them, using detective work to find out who they are then stop and search to catch them in the process of the crime, carrying an offensive weapon.

It shouldn't be used as a deterrent, stop and search enough people and the bad guys will be scared of carrying something. The bad guys won't, they'll just be more creative in transporting the weapons that you need, and if you're going to do that, why not a gun?

As for MODA stops, those are being used in a racist way. Firstly, you can smell cannabis on every second street in every city in the UK, but the "problem drug areas" are invariably in poorer, ethnic minority areas.

I've lived all around the UK, in some very well to do areas and some pretty rough areas, I don't look out of place in either, and you don't get stopped and searched anywhere near as much in white areas, and it's not just my personal experience that says this.

On top of that, where is the cultural understanding? Over the last 10/20 years there has been a shift towards tighter clothing for men, especially jeans, except in certain cultures, so if someone's walking around in a large coat when it's warm but not hot, they're possibly from one of these cultures.

Not every body like the shape of their body to be displayed. In the case of the young man arrested, it looked like his puffer jacket was designed to make him look muscly. If it made him slightly uncomfortable to wear it in that weather as a payoff for a more impressive silhouette, isn't that his choice? Do you think women who wear high heels are trying to avoid detection by altering their height?

The problem with this scrutiny that you're talking about is that the lines you've drawn for what is acceptable are arbitrary. Large jacket in warm weather: smuggling drugs, skimpy clothing in subzero temperatures: not soliciting prostitution.

Until the way stop and search is being used is drastically altered and its used limited to very specific circumstances, it will always be used as a racist tool.

I think you’re jumping to an awful lot of conclusions here for which there are other explanations depending on which view you choose to adopt (or what your personal thoughts are on stop search)

 

[Maticmaker]

...which there are other explanations depending on which view you choose to adopt (or what your personal thoughts are on stop search)

I agree, it was many years ago admittedly, but I use to get stopped regularly by police when walking home from my girlfriends house in the early hours, although having done nothing wrong I often felt nervous. Sometimes it would just be questions, sometimes a 'pat down' as they called it in those days, sometimes the police approach was friendly, sometimes a bit threatening, like they were almost expecting me to make a run for it...(at least that was my assumption).

One night I was carrying a large bag and since I had just finished a late shift before meeting my girlfriend the bag contained a pair of overalls, it also had in it a brand new electric kettle I was taking home for my mother, who had order it from a mail order catalogue run by girlfriends mother.
The police stopped me and asked what was in the bag, when I gave my explanation, the older one of the two officers 'laughed and said "nobody could make up a story like that, on yer way lad" After that still got stopped a few times but the nervousness had gone.

 

[TheReligion]

I agree, it was many years ago admittedly, but I use to get stopped regularly by police when walking home from my girlfriends house in the early hours, although having done nothing wrong I often felt nervous. Sometimes it would just be questions, sometimes a 'pat down' as they called it in those days, sometimes the police approach was friendly, sometimes a bit threatening, like they were almost expecting me to make a run for it...(at least that was my assumption).

One night I was carrying a large bag and since I had just finished a late shift before meeting my girlfriend the bag contained a pair of overalls, it also had in it a brand new electric kettle I was taking home for my mother, who had order it from a mail order catalogue run by girlfriends mother.
The police stopped me and asked what was in the bag, when I gave my explanation, the older one of the two officers 'laughed and said "nobody could make up a story like that, on yer way lad" After that still got stopped a few times but the nervousness had gone.

From experience it’s predominantly about how you treat people and explain to them. As with all aspects of policing. Some officers are great at it, others aren’t. Some members of the public are understanding, others aren’t.

If you ask residents of a community blighted by theft, violence, drug use and burglary If they’d like to see more proactive policing in terms of stop search I’m pretty confident they’d be for it. It has it’s benefits when used correctly (and that’s the key). It’s a very subjective power.

People also have to understand how officers may see things differently to the average person in terms of what grounds may be developed. It’s their job and I’d expect them to be professionally curious. What’s deemed as suspicious to them may well not be to a member of the public and that’s where communication is key along with courtesy.

 

[arnie_ni]

I think the religion has handled this line of questioning pretty well

 

[Peter van der Gea]

From experience it’s predominantly about how you treat people and explain to them. As with all aspects of policing. Some officers are great at it, others aren’t. Some members of the public are understanding, others aren’t.

If you ask residents of a community blighted by theft, violence, drug use and burglary If they’d like to see more proactive policing in terms of stop search I’m pretty confident they’d be for it. It has it’s benefits when used correctly (and that’s the key). It’s a very subjective power.

People also have to understand how officers may see things differently to the average person in terms of what grounds may be developed. It’s their job and I’d expect them to be professionally curious. What’s deemed as suspicious to them may well not be to a member of the public and that’s where communication is key along with courtesy.

Well I would like someone from the police (not you mate, I enjoyed hearing your point of view on this matter) why you are far more likely to be stop and searched as a ethnic minority than a white person when criminal rates are the same. Why are black kids getting searched for drugs when white kids at Eton aren't? Why are ethnic minority children getting strip searched at ridiculous rates compared to their white schoolmates?

These are questions for higher ups and politicians, but I would ask the plod on the street to understand why people wear particular clothing, and to stop and search at far more specific reasons. And if you have to stop and search for deterrence, do it in an equal way, not disproportionately on one or two communities. Stop and search rich kids in rich ares at the same rate you stop and search poor kids in poor areas.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I think the religion has handled this line of questioning pretty well

He has, he is a good poster.

However he is trying to defend an institutionally racist organisation which isn't really going to work.

 

[calodo2003]

I think the religion has handled this line of questioning pretty well

Just like @Skizzo does in the US Cop thread.

 

[arnie_ni]

He has, he is a good poster.

However he is trying to defend an institutionally racist organisation which isn't really going to work.

So I have a question on this particular instance and your line of thoughts.

Do you think these officers are racist or have the just got it ingrained into them since being of the force that a black guy in a bad neighbourhood could be a criminal and then you must search?

Basically, were they always like this or are they picking these, "habits" up on the job?