United’s Scouts

[phelans shorts]

It was said at the departures of Lawlor and Bout that we'd be primarily targeting players ten Hag has identified this summer, then we'll bring in the relevant appointments and broaden our scope for the future windows.

This is the obvious answer. We’ve essentially ripped up where our scouting system wasn’t working and starting again, and well, it’s never going to be the way that your new structure is going to be immediately top of the class. Rome wasn’t built in a day after all, the concept of starting with manager targets this summer does make sense and allow the new recruiting team work on what follows once a foundation is set.

Now the obvious negative on our structure here is that they decided to tear the recruitment structure up too late, doing it in late April/May rather than late January or February (or early March when Arnold/Murtough officially took office after Woodward) meaning this summer is taking place while we’re laying a foundation, making them extra ineffective.

As others have said these kind of changes do take a little time to bear fruit, look at the changes Murtough made at youth level, only now leading to our first youth cup in ages. It does give some reason for optimism.

 

[led_scholes]

Again we are moving so slow. We had reports that RR early on pointed our week scouting department. Yet, we only just fired. We still haven't restructured anything. Even if ETH's recommendatios are good and prove to be successful this year, what happens next year? Are we going again by ETH's recommendations? If not, how can we persuade him that from now on, the scouts will play a prominent role? It's a recipe of disaster.

That's what we did with Jose. We first bought what him and his agent wanted, then we rejected his suggestions and he got pissed etc.

 

[phelans shorts]

Again we are moving so slow. We had reports that RR early on pointed our week scouting department. Yet, we only just fired. We still haven't restructured anything. Even if ETH's recommendatios are good and prove to be successful this year, what happens next year? Are we going again by ETH's recommendations? If not, how can we persuade him that from now on, the scouts will play a prominent role? It's a recipe of disaster.

That's what we did with Jose. We first bought what him and his agent wanted, then we rejected his suggestions and he got pissed etc.

Next year the plan is to have a fully functioning scouting setup who have spent a few months formulating their own reports, alongside the data science team put together under Dominic Jordan a few months ago/I think it was actually late last year to give a much fuller picture of what we need and what players offer. Obviously.

 

[NoLogo]

we have scouts?

According to FM about 40 of them, but I don't know how much you can trust that lineup even though they usually do a fairly good job when researching club employees.

 

[led_scholes]

Next year the plan is to have a fully functioning scouting setup who have spent a few months formulating their own reports, alongside the data science team put together under Dominic Jordan a few months ago/I think it was actually late last year to give a much fuller picture of what we need and what players offer. Obviously.

I find it hard to believe that ETH after having almost all the power in transfers, will give it up. Let's hope he already has agreed on this.

 

[Revaulx]

we have scouts?

Not really.

They’ve either been:

1. Crap and now sacked.
2. Undermined by Woodward who signed who he was told to by agents etc.
3. Undermined by managers who used their own personal scouts

 

[phelans shorts]

I find it hard to believe that ETH after having almost all the power in transfers, will give it up. Let's hope he already has agreed on this.

Really? He didn’t even have that control over Ajax, why would he expect to be given it here where the scale is off the charts.

 

[led_scholes]

Really? He didn’t even have that control over Ajax, why would he expect to be given it here where the scale is off the charts.

Because he already has it.

 

[TwoSheds]

Given we signed a manager with a particular style / philosophy why does it matter that we took our time a bit to sack / appoint who we think are the right people to recruitment positions? The profiles of player to go for need to be set to suit what the coach wants so he has to be a key part in defining them. There's perhaps not much point rushing to get people in to sit on their hands / formulate preconceptions that end up not aligning with the style we want to play in advance of the manager's arrival. It worked for Pep but then he'd already worked with the same DoF before.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

In Jan this year, Rangnick asked for a striker. Our scouting department can't name a striker. Rangnick name at least 3 and all of them got signed up by major clubs soon after.

Sorry but is there some proof that they couldn't name a striker? I don't even know what that means.
Any 12 year old kid can send a link to Top 10 rated strikers in the world.
All the scout team can do is give an opinion based on performance indices and maybe a recommendation on how much those players are worth.
How that information is processed is above their pay grade, surely?

 

[RORY65]

Sorry but is there some proof that they couldn't name a striker? I don't even know what that means.
Any 12 year old kid can send a link to Top 10 rated strikers in the world.
All the scout team can do is give an opinion based on performance indices and maybe a recommendation on how much those players are worth.
How that information is processed is above their pay grade, surely?

Apparently (well according to Ogden) when Rangnick came in he asked the scouts for their reports on Nkunku as he saw him as a promising future target. Their supposed response was that they didn't have any because he wasn't on their list which baffled Rangnick that there were no scout reports for one of the best young players in Europe. Whether the story is true or not is up in the air and what it would mean about the general level of information available from the scouts even if it is true also isn't clear.

Having Woodward hang around for the best part of a year after he announced he was going seems to have been an issue because it feels like some of the changes being made (including to the scouting and data science departments) could have progressed further if he had been out of the way earlier.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Apparently (well according to Ogden) when Rangnick came in he asked the scouts for their reports on Nkunku as he saw him as a promising future target. Their supposed response was that they didn't have any because he wasn't on their list which baffled Rangnick that there were no scout reports for one of the best young players in Europe. Whether the story is true or not is up in the air and what it would mean about the general level of information available from the scouts even if it is true also isn't clear.

Having Woodward hang around for the best part of a year after he announced he was going seems to have been an issue because it feels like some of the changes being made (including to the scouting and data science departments) could have progressed further if he had been out of the way earlier.

Thanks for the reply.
No offence, but really can’t believe that there was no intel on a guy like Nkunku.
He’d had a great first half of the season including scoring a hat trick at City in CL.
As you say maybe someone like Woodward got in the way somewhat?

 

[croadyman]

Really hope they aren't ignored in next windows

 

[Isotope]

Apparently (well according to Ogden) when Rangnick came in he asked the scouts for their reports on Nkunku as he saw him as a promising future target. Their supposed response was that they didn't have any because he wasn't on their list which baffled Rangnick that there were no scout reports for one of the best young players in Europe. Whether the story is true or not is up in the air and what it would mean about the general level of information available from the scouts even if it is true also isn't clear.

Having Woodward hang around for the best part of a year after he announced he was going seems to have been an issue because it feels like some of the changes being made (including to the scouting and data science departments) could have progressed further if he had been out of the way earlier.

If you noticed, the Club is good on leaking negative news before they let go people. It happened before they let go RR, the Scout heads, etc.

 

[BarryWinks]

If you noticed, the Club is good on leaking negative news before they let go people. It happened before they let go RR, the Scout heads, etc.

Or it could be tabloids making things up knowing fans will believe it. After all more often than not the person those type of story is about never refute or admit them anyway.

It is the same at every club. Soon as someone gets fired journalists suddenly come up with minute by minute detail of their shortcomings, how they banned this or that, how they are perceived by senior players, upper management etc.

Point is, it is not unique to united, and clubs never refute those stories anyways so it's open season for journalists.

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

Our academy has been doing well so I'm sure scouting at the lower levels has been decent; it's the 1st team scouting that's in question.

 

[Isotope]

Or it could be tabloids making things up knowing fans will believe it. After all more often than not the person those type of story is about never refute or admit them anyway.

It is the same at every club. Soon as someone gets fired journalists suddenly come up with minute by minute detail of their shortcomings, how they banned this or that, how they are perceived by senior players, upper management etc.

Point is, it is not unique to united, and clubs never refute those stories anyways so it's open season for journalists.

These also most likely true. And when people just lap it up, it's a bit annoying. But i guess, why would you care if people believe these 'news' from 'sources' even if they don't make any sense.

 

[Daengophile]

we have scouts?

What we really need is guides

 

[Tyrion]

Our academy has been doing well so I'm sure scouting at the lower levels has been decent; it's the 1st team scouting that's in question.

Based on the Ronaldo signing, there's interference from the likes of Woodward and, infuriatingly, ex-players.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

For long term, we absolutely need to move away from manager having all the power to make decision on signings.

If not we have learn nothing from the last 10 years of disaster.

That's correct but the club also has to instill faith in managers.

 

[cyril C]

I’d imagine the vast network of scouts are looking more at kids than established players. Trying to find the next Messi to get them in at bargain prices.

You need both types. In fact, I suspect hired scouts are more likely focusing on league players, school kids scouts, in the hundreds, more likely on contract who will get a fee for anyone signed up by academy.

You don't need scouts for Sanchez, but I wish we had. You also need experienced scouts to give personal assessment on established players like Sancho, Neves, Fred, Bruno.

But most laborious tasks are probably on the Dalot, Telles, Lindelof, Fred, Bailly, AWB. That they are good enough, has potential to what level, might even need 2nd opinion which we probably did not do.

It was a systematic failure that we have failed on recruitment for more than a decade, dated back to Fergi era - remember Powell, Tosic, Djemba, and a whole series of players hardly get any game time.

 

[cyril C]

Sorry but is there some proof that they couldn't name a striker? I don't even know what that means.
Any 12 year old kid can send a link to Top 10 rated strikers in the world.
All the scout team can do is give an opinion based on performance indices and maybe a recommendation on how much those players are worth.
How that information is processed is above their pay grade, surely?

Really, want a bet the computer will return Lukaku? No offence to the link, because Chelsea fell for it as well.

 

[Marcus]

I think ETH probably told the board to let him get players he knows already this time round to jump start the implementation of his system. I think the scouts will probably be in a position to provide their inputs on players not familiar with the ETH system in the next few windows. Further ETH also needs to really get to know the players he has inherited to see if they need replacing.

 

[Demaw]

I think ETH probably told the board to let him get players he knows already this time round to jump start the implementation of his system. I think the scouts will probably be in a position to provide their inputs on players not familiar with the ETH system in the next few windows. Further ETH also needs to really get to know the players he has inherited to see if they need replacing.

Very true, ETH seems to be speaking up and he needs players now, not in years like Amad and Pellistri. Our youth recruiting has got much better in recent years and we have a lot more kids coming in from all over the place and our locals are more the cream of the area which is good. Beaucoup could add to this.

 

[Redstain]

I think this is the season where the scouting infrastructure needs to pay dividends for the supposed restructure that was fronted by Murtough. United have FFP limitations and the club sale uncertainty means there's roughly 100M to use over three positions possibly four including the goalkeeper.

Kokcu looks benfica bound and Kone seemingly has interest from Liverpool. These undoubtedly are the profile of players the club should be identifying (both under 40M GBP). Hojlund would be an excellent prospect in an area with minimalist options. Realistically I think people are going to be disappointed if they think Caicedo / Rice are happening, the economics aren't there to support this and both players realistically should have been signed in previous seasons (Rice at one point valued 60M).

This summer market for United has to be an under the radar one.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Many folks on here have little to no idea about the work that the scouts do but criticise nevertheless.
I've heard that worldwide United have the biggest scouting team (no idea if true) and I reckon that a lot of good Intel is passed on but failed to be acted upon by those on higher paygrades.
Such as Garnacho, Alvaro Fernandez and Meijbri are recent success stories proving that the scout team are not totally useless but the need for results now often results on their recommendations being ignored.

 

[El-Manos]

United scouts ? What’s that?

 

[DevTheRed]

The summer we signed Fernandez, Garnacho and Jurado is probably the most I’ve seen our scouts do in recent years.. also the Pellistri and Amad window (whilst not cheap it was nice to sign some unknowns).

If we do have the biggest scouting network in the world we certainly need to use it more often to sign more unknowns.. they for me are the most exciting transfers.

 

[Moriarty]

United scouts ? What’s that?

They have about the same success rate as Colonel Custer's scouts did at the Little Big Horn.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Many folks on here have little to no idea about the work that the scouts do but criticize nevertheless.
I've heard that worldwide United have the biggest scouting team (no idea if true) and I reckon that a lot of good Intel is passed on but failed to be acted upon by those on higher paygrades.
Such as Garnacho, Alvaro Fernandez and Meijbri are recent success stories proving that the scout team are not totally useless but the need for results now often results on their recommendations being ignored.

Heard it too and I'm pretty sure it was said as part of a very large article made by Ornstein or Whitwell about re-organizing of the scout and analytical departments

 

[Sunny Jim]

The summer we signed Fernandez, Garnacho and Jurado is probably the most I’ve seen our scouts do in recent years.. also the Pellistri and Amad window (whilst not cheap it was nice to sign some unknowns).

If we do have the biggest scouting network in the world we certainly need to use it more often to sign more unknowns.. they for me are the most exciting transfers.

we didnt singed Fernandes in the summer. He was a January addtion

 

[DevTheRed]

we didnt singed Fernandes in the summer. He was a January addtion

Alvaro Fernandez

 

[Sunny Jim]

Alvaro Fernandez

point taken

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I think this is the season where the scouting infrastructure needs to pay dividends for the supposed restructure that was fronted by Murtough. United have FFP limitations and the club sale uncertainty means there's roughly 100M to use over three positions possibly four including the goalkeeper.

Kokcu looks benfica bound and Kone seemingly has interest from Liverpool. These undoubtedly are the profile of players the club should be identifying (both under 40M GBP). Hojlund would be an excellent prospect in an area with minimalist options. Realistically I think people are going to be disappointed if they think Caicedo / Rice are happening, the economics aren't there to support this and both players realistically should have been signed in previous seasons (Rice at one point valued 60M).

This summer market for United has to be an under the radar one.

Top post, we’ve overpaid for years & posters still want marquee signings when we should be looking at astute ones.

 

[DevTheRed]

point taken

Although Fernandes is a given too.. he was just such an obvious transfer and for once the club moved on it. One I’m still bitter about is Mahrez to City.. we should’ve signed him

 

[unitedrulez84]

A day in the life of a United scout:

Fires up Football Manager

Filtered by "English" nationality
Filter Attributes :
Determination between 15-20
Team work between 15-20
Work rate between 15-20

Results:
-Harry Kane
-Mason Mount
-Declan Rice

Emails results to DOF

 

[Rocksy]

A day in the life of a United scout:

Fires up Football Manager

Filtered by "English" nationality
Filter Attributes :
Determination between 15-20
Team work between 15-20
Work rate between 15-20

Results:
-Harry Kane
-Mason Mount
-Declan Rice

Emails results to DOF

…DOF watches them on Match of the Day and considers preparing a bid.

 

[JJ12]

It’s not the scouts it’s the people who receive the scouts intel

 

[Ish]

A day in the life of a United scout:

Fires up Football Manager

Filtered by "English" nationality
Filter Attributes :
Determination between 15-20
Team work between 15-20
Work rate between 15-20

Results:
-Harry Kane
-Mason Mount
-Declan Rice

Emails results to DOF

I mean Kane's bona fide world class, but....ok.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

It’s not the scouts it’s the people who receive the scouts intel

Yeah, by all accounts the organization was a bit of a mess over the last decade, and our scouts were repeatedly marginalized and had their recommendations ignored.