United, football, mental health, and yet another United thread...

Sky1981

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Just f*ck these supporters.

As long as its a player I'm personally willing to support - I hope they are here making the hating supporters life harder. Game by game, season by season.

It's the only way I realise I can support United and its players without feeling depressed at how our fans can talk about its players, talking about the cost of a player, talking about the contract of a players when the majority of the fan base haven't payed for a single match at Old Trafford and yet they cry like it's their money and their right for things to go their way. Crying like they know football, like they could be better, like they could find better players with ease because of the time they spend watching footballing streaming illegally on the computer screen. One minute they are crying at about how we haven't had a good manager or good coaches or good tactics in a decade and then they are blaming players for not progressing either - the way people are starting to talk about Greenwood and others are disgusting.

Then there is the aspect where all these fans believe that they do nothing wrong. Like they haven't ruined the club. I remember how 90% of redcafe was crying for Jose Mourinho. Should the fans not be blamed for those consequences and those failures? It's your fault, just as much as it was the Glazers. Crying for us to sign Greizmann for over 100mil and then when he fails everyone goes quiet like they never wanted him in the first place.

There is a part of me that wouldn't mind United going through a whole decade or two without trophies; turning to a Liverpool or Arsenal which are clubs that slowly had to look at itself in the mirror and realise it is not big as it is; whilst our club is deluded constantly talking about how we are the biggest club in the world when that is so far from the truth and always was. I would like for us to fail as a club more and watch the voice of the fan base go down because no matter what they think or want to do - it doesn't happen because they do not control the club well enough either, mistake after mistake coming from their stinky mouth or they dirty fingertips. They are just puppets in a 90,000 stadium - and most are not even that.
So if it's players you don't like it's ok?
 

unclefredo

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This is on Ralf at the moment - simple as that.

Regardless of the speculation around the "why", his performances have been so bad and physical application so lacking, you simply have to take him out of the team. Whatever help he needs, if any, it's the managers job to sort that out.

My point is pretty simple - he is currently not performing at the level required to do his job. As a club, I'd like to think we would help him overcome any obstacles that is preventing him being able to do that job - be it physical, mental, personal issues. However, if he is unable to recapture his form, as nice as a guy he is, at some point, don't we have a difficult decision to make?

To draw a parallel, remember Fletcher when he was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis? Disappeared from the first team for ages, only for him to appear in a press conference after a lengthy absence and go public with his illness. However, ultimately, he was never the same player after that and was moved on. I'm sure that was a regrettable time for both parties but at the same time a begrudging acceptance that it had to be done.

At the moment, if I was in Ralf's position, I'd be making up an injury to take him out of the firing line. It's just too difficult to watch Rashford play at the moment both as a spectator and as a human being.
 

OL29

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This should stop being the barometer of abuse.

Even mother theresa got abused on the internet. It's the internet.

If he's racially abused at old trafford then it's an issue. You really cant expect twitter to be civilized.

And every other celebrity from gordon ramsay, boris johnson, semenya etc got abused on twitter or facebok or youtube comment section.

If that's the justification for sulking might as well quit your job
So that makes it acceptable? What are you going in about?
 

Sky1981

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An excuse for what? You might want to reread my post.
He gets racially abused regularly, he’s been abused by our own fans in the stadium, countless comments on social media, even the media pile in on him regularly. Even if he doesn’t read it first hand, he certainly hears about it, and although I don’t know if it impacts him or not, he’s still human and doesn’t deserve to be subjected to it over a sport.
This should stop being the barometer of abuse.

Even mother theresa got abused on the internet. It's the internet.

If he's racially abused at old trafford then it's an issue. You really cant expect twitter to be civilized.

And every other celebrity from gordon ramsay, boris johnson, semenya etc got abused on twitter or facebok or youtube comment section.

If that's the justification for sulking might as well quit your job
 

OL29

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This should stop being the barometer of abuse.

Even mother theresa got abused on the internet. It's the internet.

If he's racially abused at old trafford then it's an issue. You really cant expect twitter to be civilized.

And every other celebrity from gordon ramsay, boris johnson, semenya etc got abused on twitter or facebok or youtube comment section.

If that's the justification for sulking might as well quit your job
Isn’t this just a repetition of your first reply? You said if we’re going to use it as an excuse then you may aswell stop playing football. What excuse are you talking about? Because all I did was point out that Pogba has been racially abuse and that it’s unacceptable. How did that trigger you so much to go in that rant? Like I said, you may want to reread that exchange.
 

Slysi17

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Chopping everything up to mental health with no concrete evidence does a disservice to people actually suffering from said conditions.

There is no indication for that, no diagnosis, and this is pure speculation.

All we know is he s been rubbish for a while and people on social media are slating him for it. I don't get how this is any different to any other player in the limelight. Players get ripped when they play bad, it just doesn't mean as much when it s not the United Golden Boy. If anything, Rashford has been more protected than most other English lads and he s had one good season.

As a caveat, Rashford is my favorite person at United, not just player. And unless the player or a close source gives any indication as to the opposite, spreading false narrative about someone struggling with mental health to justify poor form on the pitch seems counterproductive when the ultimate aim is to take mental illnesses more seriously.
And also these footballers make a truckload of money. Someone suffering with mental health who just has a normal job of working 8.30am to 5.00pm doesn't have that finanical security. When it turns bad for these people, it's a struggle to even get back on your feet both personally and financially. So its a bit insulting for these people when we don't know if Marcus Rashford is suffering from mental health problems. Also I don't agree with personal abuse but its totally right to critizce players by saying they played rubbish and shouldn't be picked. It's part of being a professional footballer.
 

Sky1981

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Isn’t this just a repetition of your first reply? You said if we’re going to use it as an excuse then you may aswell stop playing football. What excuse are you talking about? Because all I did was point out that Pogba has been racially abuse and that it’s unacceptable. How did that trigger you so much to go in that rant? Like I said, you may want to reread that exchange.
I don’t know if it impacts him or not, he’s still human and doesn’t deserve to be subjected to it over a sport.
To which I replied that if you're going to count twitter/ig/yt/fb comment section then everybody gets insulted, might as well stop being famous if you think that's too much
 

OL29

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To which I replied that if you're going to count twitter/ig/yt/fb comment section then everybody gets insulted, might as well stop being famous if you think that's too much
So just because it’s a part of being famous you think it’s acceptable? You don’t think that’s a weird hill to die on?
And I’m still not sure why you were talking about excuses? Who made any excuse? And what was the excuse for?
 

Sky1981

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So just because it’s a part of being famous you think it’s acceptable? You don’t think that’s a weird hill to die on?
And I’m still not sure why you were talking about excuses? Who made any excuse? And what was the excuse for?
No. But if you're going to use it as an excuse then might as well stop football.
I'm done with this, if you can't read my reply and want to put words in my mouth, do so. I'm putting you on ignore
 

OL29

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I'm done with this, if you can't read my reply and want to put words in my mouth, do so. I'm putting you on ignore
You literally waded into a conversation you didn’t read and starting talking about excuses that no one made, and you’re talking about putting words in your mouth? Please do put me on ignore, it’ll spare you wasting my time again.
 

romufc

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You mean like thinking they are immune to personal struggles because of money?
No, the opposite actually. If you had broken up with your girlfriend and didnt do your job, would your colleagues be like oh he broke up with his girlfriend at 24, he must be upset, lets give him benefit of the doubt for not doing his work.

No, employers might give you a break for a week or 2 but will expect you to get back to work and work, if you still dont perform, you wont be at the workplace.
 

romufc

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Doubt any of us can survive 18 months while performing poorly on the job, mostly likely to be sacked before the 3 months pronation is over.
Yet we have fans making all sorts of excuses for Rashford. He has been awful for us all year, he took the selfish option in the summer too.

He knew with an injury he was not going to get minutes at the Euros, he went there for Vibes, he could have got his op done and got fit before the start of the season.
 

romufc

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And that there in lies part of the problem.

Footballer's go into the industry at the age of 8, 10, 11 etc, they come out of that cocoon at the age of 32, 34, 36 etc with pretty much everything done for them. They get told where to go, what to eat, where to invest their money, what to drink what to avoid. They miss a load of their formative years that other street wise kids would get. They go in as a boy, they come out as boy in a mans body.

Of course most of us would give our right nut to play for our boy hood club and take probably half the trappings that go with it. That still does not mean if you earn X you should not suffer from depression or anxiety or other mental health issues. I earn an alright wage, better than some of my mates but does that mean I am immune from mental health issues, far from it. Money, material things, it's all short term happiness. Countless footballers either piss away or gamble away their fortune because they DONT know how to cope with the problems the man on the street would take in his stride.

I remember reading an interview somewhere, sure it was about Rio Ferdinand. On retiring from football, he went on his first family holiday and was daunted at the prospect of going to the airport and through passport control as he had never had to do it. An adult of 36 stressed because he didn't have a clue about the airport routine.

While I agree it's hard to sympathise with somebody who has a relatively better lifestyle and quality of living and plenty of cash in the bank whilst on the face of it not putting the effort in, it still does not make them immune from mental health issues.
Agreed, mental health issues is a problem for everyone.

So, are you implying that Rashford has mental health problems?

Why is it that lack of form = mental health problems ?

The club have professionals and the like to be able to help players through this, if there was a doubt about a player, they would be taken out the firing line, they have a sports psychologist as well to make sure that the player is mentally prepared.

If a player is suffering through depression and the like, I am 100% the club will support them and offer different services, they wont be playing only to make things worse.

Can you tell me what makes you think Rashford has mental health problems?
 

Withnail

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This should stop being the barometer of abuse.

Even mother theresa got abused on the internet. It's the internet.

If he's racially abused at old trafford then it's an issue. You really cant expect twitter to be civilized.

And every other celebrity from gordon ramsay, boris johnson, semenya etc got abused on twitter or facebok or youtube comment section.

If that's the justification for sulking might as well quit your job
Turns out she was no Mother Teresa
 

Ludens the Red

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I'm taking the piss out of using on-pitch body language to diagnose mental problems. If you even want to go there anyone currently in poor form could technically have mental health issues.

Have you seen Martial? Prime candidate for depression diagnoses. Phil Jones too. Reckon he might have bipolar personality disorder. Maguire, textbook schizophrenia. There's definitely an inner conflicting voice telling him to do the wrong thing.

I better not catch you in any of those players' performance threads criticizing their performances now that I've ascertained the reasons for their poor forms.
Haha.
 

r3idy

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Agreed, mental health issues is a problem for everyone.

So, are you implying that Rashford has mental health problems?

Why is it that lack of form = mental health problems ?

The club have professionals and the like to be able to help players through this, if there was a doubt about a player, they would be taken out the firing line, they have a sports psychologist as well to make sure that the player is mentally prepared.

If a player is suffering through depression and the like, I am 100% the club will support them and offer different services, they wont be playing only to make things worse.

Can you tell me what makes you think Rashford has mental health problems?
Firstly, I want to make clear I am not trying to antognise you on this. Mental Health is a very subjective thing. Nor am I am medical expert so these are purely just my observations and opinions.

Am I implying that Rashford has mental health problems? It is entirely possible yes. He is bang out of form, he is on the face of it making the wrong decisions on the pitch, which initself is a mental problem. He's scratching for any sniff of goal he can get. There is a massive difference between a ruthless selfish goalscorer like Shearer, Ruud, RVP who will take on 9 out of 10 chances than what we are seeing with Rashford. The difference that I observe is that maybe Rashford is not as resilient as some of the other players. This generation of players are completely different than the ones before. Maybe the lack of form is a mental issue or vice versa, maybe he has an unpublicised mental issue that is contributing to his lack of form. I think the days of leave your personal problems at the door when you enter the work place are long gone thankfully.

Maybe his online presence does not help him IF it is a mental problem. Or should I say exasperates any other issues. I was out at lunchtime and Ironically there was a segment on TalkSport about a report that has been published today, the CRISP report which documents online abuse via social media platforms. One in two messages directed towards footballers is abusive. Bruno Fernandes missed a penalty this season against Aston Villa. Before the night was through he had received over 800 abusive messages. These incidents are only going up not down. Add that to Marcus who no doubt is getting racist messages. On the one hand, we as fans are quick to cry foul about social media 'oh there account is run by some PR bod, he wont' see the message' then on the other, if they do have any running or visibility to their own social media account, we expect them to be immune from abuse? It's a nonsense. Take Stan Collymore who clearly runs his own Twitter Account. Well documented he had domestic issues with Ulrika Johnsson over twenty years ago. He has apologised and still gets dogs abuse for it now (Not advocating abuse in anyway)

Why is it that lack of form = mental health problems ?

Same in all walks of life and work. Mental health issues can contribute to poor work form and vice versa, why should footballers be any different, it's just another job at the end of the day. Around 18 years ago I had issues with my Dad and the relationship was broken beyond repair where I needed to seek professional help for my own wellbeing. At the time the Anxiety, Depression and Trauma was debilitating. At times it was a mammoth task just to get out of bed let alone in the car and goto work. I would be lying if I would say that experience did not have an impact on my work performance.

If a player is suffering through depression and the like, I am 100% the club will support them and offer different services, they wont be playing only to make things worse.

I agree and no doubt the club will be supporting them, firstly because it's the right thing to do and secondly because they have a duty of care to do so. But what can take one person two weeks to get over an issue, it might take somebody else two years.

The world we live in today is vastly different from when the likes of Robbo, Hughesy etc were in their pomp. This generation of footballers lives are lived through a very polarising social media lens all amplified 10x because he plays for United. He was touted as the homegrown next big thing, one of the next generational talents, the world at his feet. Maybe, just maybe the pressure is just too much for him and for want of a better phrase he is over trying. I am sure we have all been in that situation where no matter what we do or try, things never seem to go right. When we relax, refocus, everything starts falling into place.

As I say, no Doctor or Mental Health Professional. Purely observations as I see it. Wishing you a good day
 

romufc

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Firstly, I want to make clear I am not trying to antognise you on this. Mental Health is a very subjective thing. Nor am I am medical expert so these are purely just my observations and opinions.

Am I implying that Rashford has mental health problems? It is entirely possible yes. He is bang out of form, he is on the face of it making the wrong decisions on the pitch, which initself is a mental problem. He's scratching for any sniff of goal he can get. There is a massive difference between a ruthless selfish goalscorer like Shearer, Ruud, RVP who will take on 9 out of 10 chances than what we are seeing with Rashford. The difference that I observe is that maybe Rashford is not as resilient as some of the other players. This generation of players are completely different than the ones before. Maybe the lack of form is a mental issue or vice versa, maybe he has an unpublicised mental issue that is contributing to his lack of form. I think the days of leave your personal problems at the door when you enter the work place are long gone thankfully.

Maybe his online presence does not help him IF it is a mental problem. Or should I say exasperates any other issues. I was out at lunchtime and Ironically there was a segment on TalkSport about a report that has been published today, the CRISP report which documents online abuse via social media platforms. One in two messages directed towards footballers is abusive. Bruno Fernandes missed a penalty this season against Aston Villa. Before the night was through he had received over 800 abusive messages. These incidents are only going up not down. Add that to Marcus who no doubt is getting racist messages. On the one hand, we as fans are quick to cry foul about social media 'oh there account is run by some PR bod, he wont' see the message' then on the other, if they do have any running or visibility to their own social media account, we expect them to be immune from abuse? It's a nonsense. Take Stan Collymore who clearly runs his own Twitter Account. Well documented he had domestic issues with Ulrika Johnsson over twenty years ago. He has apologised and still gets dogs abuse for it now (Not advocating abuse in anyway)

Why is it that lack of form = mental health problems ?

Same in all walks of life and work. Mental health issues can contribute to poor work form and vice versa, why should footballers be any different, it's just another job at the end of the day. Around 18 years ago I had issues with my Dad and the relationship was broken beyond repair where I needed to seek professional help for my own wellbeing. At the time the Anxiety, Depression and Trauma was debilitating. At times it was a mammoth task just to get out of bed let alone in the car and goto work. I would be lying if I would say that experience did not have an impact on my work performance.

If a player is suffering through depression and the like, I am 100% the club will support them and offer different services, they wont be playing only to make things worse.

I agree and no doubt the club will be supporting them, firstly because it's the right thing to do and secondly because they have a duty of care to do so. But what can take one person two weeks to get over an issue, it might take somebody else two years.

The world we live in today is vastly different from when the likes of Robbo, Hughesy etc were in their pomp. This generation of footballers lives are lived through a very polarising social media lens all amplified 10x because he plays for United. He was touted as the homegrown next big thing, one of the next generational talents, the world at his feet. Maybe, just maybe the pressure is just too much for him and for want of a better phrase he is over trying. I am sure we have all been in that situation where no matter what we do or try, things never seem to go right. When we relax, refocus, everything starts falling into place.

As I say, no Doctor or Mental Health Professional. Purely observations as I see it. Wishing you a good day

I am no way in denying players suffer from mental health issues and they should be supported.

You are also underestimating the mental strength of some of the players, why is it that we only talk about mental health when a player is out of form?

Like yourself, first sign of form is bad, its mental health so we cannot criticise a player.

If a player is suffering, the manager would not be playing him, he would be taken out of the team for a while so that he does not get abused as much.

Yes, Rashford gets racial abuse, this has not started yesterday, this has been going for years. If you are on social media, when you have a team like Rashford does, they understand that when you have millions of followers, not everyone will like you.
 

r3idy

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I am no way in denying players suffer from mental health issues and they should be supported.

You are also underestimating the mental strength of some of the players, why is it that we only talk about mental health when a player is out of form?

Like yourself, first sign of form is bad, its mental health so we cannot criticise a player.

If a player is suffering, the manager would not be playing him, he would be taken out of the team for a while so that he does not get abused as much.

Yes, Rashford gets racial abuse, this has not started yesterday, this has been going for years. If you are on social media, when you have a team like Rashford does, they understand that when you have millions of followers, not everyone will like you.
Fair comments, I cannot disagree with.
 

Turkleton

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No, the opposite actually. If you had broken up with your girlfriend and didnt do your job, would your colleagues be like oh he broke up with his girlfriend at 24, he must be upset, lets give him benefit of the doubt for not doing his work.

No, employers might give you a break for a week or 2 but will expect you to get back to work and work, if you still dont perform, you wont be at the workplace.
There's a difference between being upset and being depressed. Anyone can get signed off work for mental health problems. You can't get fired for being unwell.

Either way, being an elite footballer is different from a normal job.
 

romufc

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There's a difference between being upset and being depressed. Anyone can get signed off work for mental health problems. You can't get fired for being unwell.

Either way, being an elite footballer is different from a normal job.
Yes, I agree it is different.

Even if we forget the wages, football is entertainment. If the crowd are not entertained, they will criticise you right?

If Rashford is playing well, scoring goals, his name will be sung at OT.
 

Satsuma United

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If you act like this I promise you that you win nothing. That's where the mercenaries go. If your fellow co-workers are treated like shit by the company you'll treat the company the same way back. Happy workers will give you that extra 10%. Talking from experience as a worker and employer.

Real Madrid signs, sells mercenaries all the time and they showed the rest you can have a very competitive squad every single year.

Big mentality, strong personalities even if it lasts 2 seasons, they take advantage of it and win CLs, ligas.

Florentino would have sold Rashford a long time ago once he found out he is more involved in social media than focused on his Football.

Florentino wants Footballers first and for some reason the United Board and some fans want great decent people first. We cant go back to the top with this mentality.

United are a Football Club.

Sign up players like Haaland that show are hungry on the pitch, who cares if he is sometimes an arrogant player, we should ask for winners like him.
 

Cheimoon

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And also these footballers make a truckload of money. Someone suffering with mental health who just has a normal job of working 8.30am to 5.00pm doesn't have that finanical security. When it turns bad for these people, it's a struggle to even get back on your feet both personally and financially. So its a bit insulting for these people when we don't know if Marcus Rashford is suffering from mental health problems. Also I don't agree with personal abuse but its totally right to critizce players by saying they played rubbish and shouldn't be picked. It's part of being a professional footballer.
First, just because someone's rich doesn't mean they cannot suffer from mental health problems.

Second, there is still stigma attached to saying openly that you have mental health issues, as people are afraid others will see them as weak. For that reason, it is actually counterproductive to say that rich people shouldn't complain. It sends a message that you need to fulfill certain social criteria before you can reasonably complain about your mental health. If anything, it would really help people with mental health issues if famous people came out more to talk about their own issues. That would help make clear that this is a common and normal issue, that it's not related to social status, that it's nothing to be ashamed of, and that it's something you can and should bring up and seek help for.

Finally, I don't think anyone is saying that players cannot be criticized for a poor performance. But people go beyond the criticism and look for reasons as well. All over the forum, you see posts about how player X is too distracted by his off-pitch activities, or has a poor personality, or is sulking or lacking interest because of this or that. If it's valid that people add that aspect to their analysis, then @Mr Pigeon is proposing we can also consider mental health issues. And why not.
Florentino would have sold Rashford a long time ago once he found out he is more involved in social media than focused on his Football.
How do you know that's true about Rashford?
 

Slysi17

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First, just because someone's rich doesn't mean they cannot suffer from mental health problems.

Second, there is still stigma attached to saying openly that you have mental health issues, as people are afraid others will see them as weak. For that reason, it is actually counterproductive to say that rich people shouldn't complain. It sends a message that you need to fulfill certain social criteria before you can reasonably complain about your mental health. If anything, it would really help people with mental health issues if famous people came out more to talk about their own issues. That would help make clear that this is a common and normal issue, that it's not related to social status, that it's nothing to be ashamed of, and that it's something you can and should bring up and seek help for.

Finally, I don't think anyone is saying that players cannot be criticized for a poor performance. But people go beyond the criticism and look for reasons as well. All over the forum, you see posts about how player X is too distracted by his off-pitch activities, or has a poor personality, or is sulking or lacking interest because of this or that. If it's valid that people add that aspect to their analysis, then @Mr Pigeon is proposing we can also consider mental health issues. And why not.

How do you know that's true about Rashford?
In regards to my first point, I never said they can't have mental health problems. I am pointing out that they make a truckload of money versus your average person. So my point is its harder for your average person to deal with mental health problems. To put it into context I did an accounting degree and couldn't find a job. I then suffered with mental health probelms. I made the decions to return to study and do a statistics degree. 2 degrees in 15 years just to earn decent money. And this 2nd degree ain't cheap either. All I am saying.
 

Slysi17

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First, just because someone's rich doesn't mean they cannot suffer from mental health problems.

Second, there is still stigma attached to saying openly that you have mental health issues, as people are afraid others will see them as weak. For that reason, it is actually counterproductive to say that rich people shouldn't complain. It sends a message that you need to fulfill certain social criteria before you can reasonably complain about your mental health. If anything, it would really help people with mental health issues if famous people came out more to talk about their own issues. That would help make clear that this is a common and normal issue, that it's not related to social status, that it's nothing to be ashamed of, and that it's something you can and should bring up and seek help for.

Finally, I don't think anyone is saying that players cannot be criticized for a poor performance. But people go beyond the criticism and look for reasons as well. All over the forum, you see posts about how player X is too distracted by his off-pitch activities, or has a poor personality, or is sulking or lacking interest because of this or that. If it's valid that people add that aspect to their analysis, then @Mr Pigeon is proposing we can also consider mental health issues. And why not.

How do you know that's true about Rashford?
You see I never make assumptions that players are lazy etc. No fan can really know that.
 
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Cheimoon

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In regards to my first point, I never said they can't have mental health problems. I am pointing out that they make a truckload of money versus your average person. So my point is its harder for your average person to deal with mental health problems. To put it into context I did an accounting degree and couldn't find a job. I then suffered with mental health probelms. I made the decions to return to study and do a statistics degree. 2 degrees in 15 years just to earn decent money. And this 2nd degree ain't cheap either. All I am saying.
Fair enough - and good on you to have gotten through that (hoping that indeed you did!). But I think that doesn't undo either point I made.
You see I never make assumptions that players are lazy etc. No fan can really know that.
Fair enough as well. Many do though. I suppose I was also partly responding to a lot of other posts in this thread.
 

b82REZ

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Mental health problems need to be discussed and understood more. As a society we've made great strides in that regard in recent years.

However as fans of a sport, one that is broadcast worldwide, we should be allowed to comment on a players general demeanour. Rashford has looked disinterested and lazy for long while now. If he is indeed struggling from anxiety, depression or any other mental health issues that may impact his performances he needs to be taken out of the firing line by the club. Hopefully the new psychologist can recommend wellness breaks for players that may be suffering from mental health problems.

What happens a lot across social media (I include the Caf in this) is that criticism is often shot down citing reasons such as mental health as reasons we cannot comment.