Agree with this, Rio's the only one with a case for having a better peak. The likes of Vidic and Kompany aren't at that level.
Van Dijk revisited
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
You seem to have read a different post to mine. I didn't say that a system was independent to the players, I actually said that it was dependent on them and that what constitutes a "great" system or success depends on the players that you have. For example, if you have a group of mediocre players, a great system is a system that allows them to be the best among mediocre teams. You can have a great system with mediocre players, otherwise you would be arguing that there are no teams with great systems outside of top teams which is obviously wrong.
Erm... he’s vastly overrated by those who unironically label him the greatest centre-back of all time. He’s been good for, what, two seasons? Hardly an extensive body of work, is it?
A major affront to the stellar standards Ferdinand, Terry, Kompany, Campbell, Vidic et al produced for nigh-on a decade, and that’s only from the Premier League era.
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I find myself often agreeing with you and it’s the same again. I do think longevity and the importance that the individual places on it will probably be a primary factor on how he is assessed and placed. @giorno touched on it as well, but his raking diagonal balls from deep are also excellent at bringing Salah and Mane into the game. He has really had a transformative effect.
That is already ridiculous idiotic in the first place
it's like people forgot the many greater defenders of before. There's plenty and VVD is not even close. Well okay, he's close but not at their level.Same, I'm curious what tales are they going to spin next if they maintain that view. Either that or they finally change their mind.
Anyone who genuinely believes that Van Dijk has only been good since he joined Liverpool seriously needs to watch another sports. The world does not evolve round the top 4 teams in English football. Van Dijk has been a ridiculous talent since his days in the Scottish leagues.
he’s been the best for that long, he’s been “good” for a lot longer than that
He was the best CB in the league dating back to his final season for southampton at least. Which is why Chelsea and City were ready to spend big on him, why liverpool did and why southampton reacted the way they did when whoever the idiot was who made liverpool's tapping up public
He was commanding in Scotland in what is a level comparable to the Championship. He was good at Southampton, albeit prone to brain farts which many believed would prevent him producing world-class form at the top level over a prolonged period of time.
He played to a high standard in his first 18 months at Liverpool but was decidedly shaky this term before his injury. As @Pexbo suggests in his OP, Liverpool, statistically, are more defensively solid in his absence. Go figure.
Only in a tiny few City fans' heads
The top two in Scotland might be championship level but the rest certainly aren't.
My boys Wycombe took John Sutton from the Scottish top flight a few years back. He was scoring loads up there. Came to us in tier 3 or maybe even 4 back then and was rubbish. Went back to the Scottish top flight and continued scoring!
He was already the best CB in the league at Southampton, or pretty close. You don’t spend 75 on a cb for no reason... All the attributes he showed at Liverpool was already apparent at Southampton.
You obviously don’t remember how poor United were at the back the year we lost Stam. Went from champions with the best defence to third with an awful defence. One Rio later we were back to being champions with the best defence.
Not entirely true, after we got Ferdinand it took him a few seasons to hit peak Rolls Royce form. It also coincided with Vidic coming in.
I do recall that game against Middlesbrough where Yakubu turned Rio and they put 4 past us
It’s objectively true. We went from third and conceding 45 goals to first and conceding 34 goals. That was an instant impact.Not entirely true, after we got Ferdinand it took him a few seasons to hit peak Rolls Royce form. It also coincided with Vidic coming in.
I do recall that game against Middlesbrough where Yakubu turned Rio and they put 4 past us
True he was what was needed after Stam. And he become the bedrock behind most of the success that decade. But I'm not convinced his signing was as singularly influential as Van Dijk's. United's defence improved in Rio's first year, and then the following year was back down to 3rd best in the league again. Even during that improved first year, it was vulnerable in Europe, and shipped 7 to Real in the quarters. After that first campaign it just didn't look as imposing as the Invincibles back line or Mourinho's Chelsea. It wasn't until 2006 that United's defence became properly shored up when Vidic, Evra and Van der Sar joined, which was also around the time Rio removed the concentration lapses from his own game to step up to the next level where, in my view, he became the best defender in the world.
A lot of those problems were caused by having shit keepers though. The same kind of problems Liverpool have every time Alisson doesn’t play. The Real Madrid game you mentioned in particular was in large part due to Barthez getting beat by shots that would not have beat somebody who wasn’t a midget. It’s fair to hold the opinion that Van Dijk had a bigger instant impact, but it’s at least close for me.
had to look for this bit of logic. He was a giant in training wheels at Celtic
Sadly we'll never know how good he could of been because Pickford killed him. Was all over the news for years and some Pool fans were going to march in silent protest to have Picko jailed for his crimes.
They did that to him and he made the Liverpool defence immaculate
Kompany brought the CB position to another level beyond Rio, Vidic, Terry ect..
Good argument.
Vidic
I will say he's definitely top 10 best defenders in Premier League of all time. Best overall is definitely a stretch though. I will give it to Rio.
So pretty much the entire media then.
It has been talked about as a matter of fact in the media so many times that it is ridiculous. And it is not just with VVD. The talk about City being the greatest PL team ever assembled, couple of seasons back and the same with Pool last season, it was all so premature. You don't play in 1 or 2 seasons and then proclaim that it is the best ever. Just should not happen.
Yes you can, the same way I can ask what team was better between the 1998-99 and 2007-08 United teams. We can rate teams based on the accomplishment of a single season.
Ok. I should have worded it better. If the talk was about best ever team or best ever player, at least I believe it should be over several seasons.
Ah that's fair then
It’s hard to say greatest PL can of all time because they all have different strengths. Vidic/Rio was probably the best IMO. It didn’t hurt that they were playing under the greatest manager ever though.
The talk about of teams is usually based on their particular season. The question is how important their European success in that estimation & how do you rate the level of their opposition. You can argue that Van Dijk’s best season is the best individual season by a PL defender – it’s just that generally players are judged on a slightly different metrics.
Yes, but you have to show it at the highest level in a high pressure environment when you're being compared to all time greats. Performing at Celtic isn't comparable with performing at Liverpool. Heck, even showing quality for Southampton isn't really the same thing. When you're comparing top class footballers, the world nearly does revolve around the top leagues.
As for this thread, it just goes to show that its a team sport and people place too much importance on individual glory. Liverpool's defensive improvement has even more to do with the collective solidarity than it does with individual brilliance, and hence the improvement back then (adding VVD) and improvement this season (removing VVD). Doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant CB, just that there are many factors that go into these things.
While I would love to get rid of the notion that VVD is a Maldini regen, this is an unfair take in my opinion.
It has been covered in other threads that the entire league were conceding more goals at the beginning of the season and that as teams got sharpness and fitness that trend started to buck. Think VVD is a victim to that as much as anyone.
Clearly he’s one of the best CBs around. But he cannot be compared to the great defenders - there is zero competition.
who is the second best CB in the PL? The fact that no one stands out shows how poor the cohort of centre halves are.
It’s a complete joke to suggest he’s one of the best ever, and only promulgated by Liverpool fans.
who is the second best CB in the PL? The fact that no one stands out shows how poor the cohort of centre halves are.
It’s a complete joke to suggest he’s one of the best ever, and only promulgated by Liverpool fans.
Rio or Terry. Longevity and consistent high level ability.
Mr Rio Ferdinand. And by far.
Van Dijk's reputation is probably thanks to him standing out more than any defender I can remember. I can' t recall an CB being as broadly accepted as the best as him.
I think in this context, the actual question is the old discussion if defenders have regressed in general. And I tend to disagree. Sure, the current best CBs don't look as rock solid as Vidic and co. but I believe that has much to do with the evolution of football.
It’s a shame but it looks as if the injury has done a number on him. He isn’t even the best CB at Liverpool anymore
Pre injury he was great even with my United bias i would have to concede that, was he the best premier league defender ever? Not for me i still rate the likes of rio vidic Terry or stam but that all said I get it if someone says so he was really good
What he did was especially impressive considering the high line they had previously, I watched most of their 2019 campaign and I feel the only terrible performance was that barca semi where it didn't matter anyway in the end
In the end he won't be ranked above the guys I just mentioned as he seems to have regressed and for longevity's sake he ain't up there but his peak was really good and for two season he was the best defender in the world
What he did was especially impressive considering the high line they had previously, I watched most of their 2019 campaign and I feel the only terrible performance was that barca semi where it didn't matter anyway in the end
In the end he won't be ranked above the guys I just mentioned as he seems to have regressed and for longevity's sake he ain't up there but his peak was really good and for two season he was the best defender in the world