were you silent when we lost to Tottenham because of a more obvious penalty than todays?
VAR and Refs | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Exactly. That’s extremely inconsistent. The commentators emphasised that the rules are different in Europe, but then you see the Zinchenko incident and all logic goes out the window.
Grealish is backpeddling, trying to jump and turn at the same time, completely understandable how it ends up there. Incredibly harsh interpretation to give pens for these things, expecting players to have the body control of a ballet dancer and full awareness of where their arms are at all times. You don't want players doing the old John Terry arms wide while blocking a shot routine but the punishment is not fitting.About as close as Eriksen was today (and closer than Romero was when proximity was claimed to be the reason why it wasn't given). But like I said, arm above head is specifically mentioned as "rarely natural" in terms of body position. You can also see from the images posted that in the short time that the ball travels from the header the arm goes from shoulder-height to above head height, so there's a movement towards the ball too.
For me, the Grealish pen is a stonewall pen under the current guidelines (arm above head). You can argue about the guidelines being dumb, but they're in place and in that context it's an obvious pen. But it's telling that in the collective consciousness (you're not the only one), it's seen as a controversial call whereas another pen that's just as obvious for the same reason according to the guidelines (arm above head) is totally the right decision according to everyone.
And now we're seeing it again with all the pundits claiming that the Romero one is not a penalty due to proximity, and then in the same breath you get people (at least on Swedish TV) saying that the Eriksen one is the correct decision despite the proximity factor and the arm not being elevated. You can even see Kim behind Eriksen with his arm in a similar position as he's running/turning towards the ball. What are the odds that two players in the same image would simultaneously take up unnatural arm positions? Could it actually be that the arm is "justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation" (using the rule book's wording here)?
As I've said that should've been a penalty considering what's been given since. Guess that would've perked you up a bit as you were completely dire second half as soon as Spurs went ahead so that incident got lost compared to if you'd gone toe-to-toe with them for 90 minutes.
You got a harder deal at Arsenal. I still think the angle used for the offside was incredibly dodgy and Gabriel with Hojlund looked a fair shout for a pen given Hojlund had actually got infront so ref should've been sent to the screen to judge.
BTW all this handball talk has just made me watch highlights of Fernandes blazing that penalty v us into the Stretford end again. That came about because Hause handled from very close range (but it was always going to be given).
Cheers guys!
Cheers guys!
It was a penalty. It shouldn't be one, and the rule as it is currently interpreted is extremely stupid, but it is what it is. Those are given more often than not.
Like I've repeatedly said: The guidance for the handball law specifically states that referees should consider hand above head as rarely natural, and therefore be penalised. I can agree that I can see how the arm ends up there, but if the guidance specifically states that arm above head is unnatural and unnatural = handball, then there's not much to do about it other than petition for a law change, is there?
Eriksen's just turned his body around to watch the header coming in so you can easily say that having his arms where they are is natural, or justifiable to use the law's wording (and Kim, who can be seen in the same image, has his right arm in a similar position to Eriksen). Yet somehow they've decided that it was so unnatural that they had to overturn the on-field decision.
The VAR team clearly wanted to give that and weren't even interested in looking at the Pellistri incident in the beginning of the game. They also spent a minute trying to disallow the Casemiro goal.
What annoys me the most is that with every refereeing call, it feels like whichever is against us the pundits will agree with and fans online will deem every call going our way as controversial (as evidenced by the Grealish incident being brought up here by a non-United fan despite being totally in line with the guidances given to the referees). This will lead to referees knowing that if they give any contentious call against us, pundits will support that decision and they'll have their name out of the spotlight and be marked as having had a good game.
No person when jumping to head a ball jumps hands by their side. When ya jump you naturally try pushing yourself up on thin air, it is a natural position, maybe referees haven’t played enough to know this.
I believe ex players who aren’t high profile enough for punditry or don’t want to go in to coaching should be fast tracked to be refs. At least they know the dark arts and know how the game is played
I believe ex players who aren’t high profile enough for punditry or don’t want to go in to coaching should be fast tracked to be refs. At least they know the dark arts and know how the game is played
I do think commentators on Swedish TV would be inclined to agree with a decision made by the Swedish ref team though, so I don't think that matters much. I think it's harsh, but I also think it's correct in regards to the current rule. I think natural position of the hand only matters to some degree, and not really when you're that high and a good bit out from the body. It's true that the Kim's hands were in a similar position, but I don't really think that matters too much in the end (the same is true for the Grealish situation, Wan-Bissaka also has both his hands well above his head at times in the same situation). I'd say due to the proximity they're somewhat harsh penalties, but still nowhere near as harsh as the penalty against Dortmund yesterday.
Anyone have an image or video of the Zinchenko call?
It’s bordering on blatant corruption to play out narratives as they see fit, every game there’s a result defining decision that goes against us.. yet you see an example of the exact opposite in a game that same weekend. Football is dead..just give the trophies to whoever hands them the fullest envelopes
Utterly moronic var decision, yet again, that has cost us.
Very surprised ETH didn’t mention it.
Completely killed any momentum we might have built up.
Very surprised ETH didn’t mention it.
Completely killed any momentum we might have built up.
Natural position is literally one of the two criteria in the rulebook to judge whether a ball striking the hand is a handball offence.
Apart from goals scored by handballs, the only two criteria are:
- deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
- touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
If anything, Eriksen's hand is in front of him, and his movement is as natural as Kim's is, so if that's unnatural then we obviously have two players simultaneously turning around to look at the ball both ending up with their hands in unnatural positions (what are the odds of that), and then it gets headed at him from less than a yard with little time to react and no obvious hand movement towards the ball (because how could he react in that time?).
I think the VAR wanted to give the decision, just like he didn't want to watch the Pellistri incident, and obviously showing the incident as a freeze frame as opposed to in real-time is going to tell a different story than showing how fast it all happens when watching it at full speed. I still don't think that Eriksen's body has become so much bigger (and not in an unnatural way either) by the hand position as it's mostly forward, so from the laws of the game I can't see it being such a big error that it warrants a VAR intervention.
I missed the first 10 mins any videos of pellestri incident?
I can see within reason that it would fit into the second criteria there, given the height of the arm. Again, I think it's harsh, but I can see it.
I really, really don't think there's any great consipiracy at work where VAR don't want to give anything for United but will do anything to give something against them. There was a harsher penalty awarded for handball just yesterday. I watched the Pellestri situation back now (missed the first half), and that is a quite nothing situation IMO. A good defensive action which should never lead to a penalty.
Thanks. Was that checked by var?
Because that is a penalty.
I swear your best to act like a maniac on the sidelines as a manager. Those teams get the calls.
nope. Not even mentioned.
Why are Swedish refs allowed in the CL when they don’t even use VAR domestically?
Yeah, this. It is never ever a penalty with any sort of sensible interpretation of the handball rule. However, the way the rule is interpreted, especially in Europe, it was always going to be given.
I dont think it was, maybe they bottled as if they had have given a penalty they would have had to give a red card for DOGSO as well as Pellistri was about to tap the ball in to the net.
Var obviously is a failure. But if it was up to me and I’m sure to be ridiculed, I would have the so called experts running the thing have to watch any replay in real time. The call was in real time and if they can’t see any changes in real time then let whatever the ref called stand. Slow motion does show fouls and handballs not seen by the naked eye but it’s a human game with people who obviously cannot see in slow motion so play the dammed replays as they were seen in the first place. It’s a disaster right now.
I’ve said this previously. Replays have to be shown full speed and can only be watched a certain number of times. If by looking at that you can’t tell, well then it is not “clear and obvious” so the on field decision stands.
I just now watched that highlight. That looks to be one of the most blatant penalties I have ever seen.
It was a lot more of a penalty than the one we got against PSG a few years ago too knock them out.
I think we have been screwed by the interpretation of handball in Europe unfortunately
This is the first time I've wanted VAR scrapped. It's such a slam dunk in theory but they can't get it right and it's now ruining games.
I'll take the odd wrong call compared to whatever we have now.
I'll take the odd wrong call compared to whatever we have now.
Who would have thought a few years ago that VAR would cause more controversy than before we had it. The missed calls back then were forgotten about fairly quickly. VAR never let’s you forget because it was supposed to be an end all but the bad VAR calls stick in your mind for ages. Something that was supposed to fix all bad calls has absolutely done the opposite.
The Eriksen handball was correctly given, but the blatant foul on Pellistri was incorrectly not given.
What's more is that before VAR, the missed calls mostly felt like decisions made in the spirit of the game. It was all about what the ref saw and thought in that moment. Now each incident gets picked apart to such an extent that it misses the spirit and original purpose of the laws its enforcing.
There is no advantage gained by being a hair offside or the ball going 0.5mm out of play but VAR feels the need to analyze these incidents until the cows come home, often not even arriving at a universally accepted good decision.
I could go on and on about why VAR sucks but I'll leave it there, apologies for having a bit of a rant.
This sport is a farce at the highest level.
That defender looks more guilty than Chris Watts
That’s never handball. In real time it’s split second var should have just moved on.
I've watched it a few times and initially thought the same as you. But I think the defender amazingly gets a nick on the ball first.
I always hate to see close range ball to hand incidents given as pens. You literally can't get out the way.
Their Argument is players will just jump with their arms all over the place if they know nothing will be given.
How on earth can you clear the check and then go back and give it?!
Just watching the Bayern game now. I was going to say I can't believe the Eriksen incident was a penalty, but actually I can, because the rules have become so utterly moronic.
You have to move your arms when you move your body. He's turning to follow the ball and it's hit at him from about two feet away. His arm was in a natural position and there was no intention. At this stage players might as well be coached to just hit the ball at players arms because they'll be given a penalty.
I'm truly so sick of VAR. The way it's being used is a complete joke. Games somehow feel even less fair than before we had it
You have to move your arms when you move your body. He's turning to follow the ball and it's hit at him from about two feet away. His arm was in a natural position and there was no intention. At this stage players might as well be coached to just hit the ball at players arms because they'll be given a penalty.
I'm truly so sick of VAR. The way it's being used is a complete joke. Games somehow feel even less fair than before we had it
Agreed. And what make it so annoying is that this was all absolutely predictable.
Yeah the on pitch Ref and the VAR team went completely against the current rules to award Sociedad a penalty. First the ref gave it, then VAR didn't tell him he was wrong and asked him to look at it and then the ref after looking at it still went ahead and awarded the pen.