It’s so obvious that the referees that have been paid for UAE games have been compromised.
This is now their mates over here covering up for them.
This is now their mates over here covering up for them.
VAR and Refs | General Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Yes I don’t trust anything to do with the officials either. I guess they’ve been consistent with the Casemiro, Gusto, Jones challenge so Kovacic is an outlier in that regard and oddly they didn’t even play the VAR conversation around it.
The issue is also this random intervention as you say. The Casemiro one was given a yellow but was deemed a clear and obvious error to upgrade to a red.
It would be refreshing for a ref to review something and actually stick to their decision rather than persistently be swayed.
It's astonishing stuff!
We had Mike Dean on Soccer Saturday saying that referees always have to stick to the letter of the law, yet Howard Webb says that the laws are potentially open to interpretation if it will negatively affect the game!
They can't have it both ways. You either stick to the laws or you don't!
I honestly think Webb's performance on this, especially about the Kovacic incident, is justification enough to get rid of VAR in its current form.
He says, as if it's explanation, that the ref is motivated by 'not wanting to ruin the game', as if this should trump rules and the fact that some cracking games involve red cards. (the 99 semi final anyone?) He then describes kovacic as having his left foot on the ground, over images of the guy lunging through the air with not as much as an arse hair touching the ground. It is just shocking that this is the level of mental gymnastics at play in these decisions. If it were any other club, or if the incident had been against liverpool, there would be appropriate demands to know why this incident was the only one without audio. Its just inexplicable. There are moments when Webb is describing some sort of mitigating circumstance, that seems to actually describe why it was a pure and simple red card.
To then avoid red just minutes later for a challenge that is a yellow in the next 99 instances of similar challenges, combined with webb's explanation and the lack of audio.
I've never trusted the whole process less. As for the gusto red card, when the var officials quite literally still the images on the worst possible interpretation before the ref gets to the screen - its borderline comical. You could put david brent voiceover over it. If i was a chelsea fan I'd be absolutely fuming at how it was applied in that instance. This is the same process that somehow allowed City's goal against fulham the other week.
He says, as if it's explanation, that the ref is motivated by 'not wanting to ruin the game', as if this should trump rules and the fact that some cracking games involve red cards. (the 99 semi final anyone?) He then describes kovacic as having his left foot on the ground, over images of the guy lunging through the air with not as much as an arse hair touching the ground. It is just shocking that this is the level of mental gymnastics at play in these decisions. If it were any other club, or if the incident had been against liverpool, there would be appropriate demands to know why this incident was the only one without audio. Its just inexplicable. There are moments when Webb is describing some sort of mitigating circumstance, that seems to actually describe why it was a pure and simple red card.
To then avoid red just minutes later for a challenge that is a yellow in the next 99 instances of similar challenges, combined with webb's explanation and the lack of audio.
I've never trusted the whole process less. As for the gusto red card, when the var officials quite literally still the images on the worst possible interpretation before the ref gets to the screen - its borderline comical. You could put david brent voiceover over it. If i was a chelsea fan I'd be absolutely fuming at how it was applied in that instance. This is the same process that somehow allowed City's goal against fulham the other week.
If there is a choice to not follow the law if it ruins the game then it is important for us to have tapes released. Simple. I'm still bemused by the level of bad decisions we had against Tottenham, Arsenal and Crystal Palace. Games we lost. We need answers how those wierd decisions went against us. I don't understand why our club is so silent on this matter and why don't they ask for tapes.
They should make the full audio of all games publicly available. Not just pick and choose when and which bits they will release.
It's probably not even crossed the great minds that run this club to even investigate this sort of thing!
For me, Webb seems to be all authority and not enough brain for the job. Just attending mic’d up and going over different incidents, and then specifically leaving out the audio for one of those incidents is bizarre given the weeks they’ve had. Here’s the exact communication between the referees for this incident, and here’s me interpreting the situation and what the referees might have been thinking, that’s great for transparency.
What i fail to understand is this focus on consequence rather than cause. For me, the entire focus should be on how the players are lunging into a tackle, that has much more to do with damage potential rather than coincidences afterwards. Like the Nketiah lunge at the Tottenham goalkeeper, he’s running towards the goalkeeper with plenty of pace and just throws himself in, he’s inches away from planting his studs high up his foot and he’s also just inches away from locking the goalkeepers foot between his body and the pitch, there’s so much potential for nasty long term injuries yet he escapes with a yellow. Then we have the Gusto challenge, where the outcome is much worse than the way he actually goes in, it’s more of a freak incident than anything else, instant red card. Kovacic needs to run to make up for the distance between him and Ødegaard, lunges in with plenty of pace and plants his studs on his ankle. Situational wise you literally have everything from the way you are lunging in to the end result, yet it’s a yellow card. Saka stamping Bruno’s ankle? You can clearly see he’s following through as well, there’s plenty of intent…For me, the Jones red card makes more sense because of the way he goes in, stamping downwards means that you increase the likelyhood of missing the ball and increasing the likelyhood of nasty injuries, it’s far worse than Gusto’s situation imo.
Again, this extra threshold related to “clear and obvious”, Webbs insistance on not re-refereeing matches and the referee on the pitch being the big boss, is simply leading to more problems than it’s solving. I get that they don’t want to open a can of worms, but what we’re stuck with is a system where identical situations will have different outcomes. Which was annoying enough years ago, but when you factor in VAR as a tool it just makes it more annoying. One week you get a red card and lose a key player for 3 matches, next weekend it’s an almost identical situation where the opposition only gets a yellow card. It should be fairly easy, the referee on the pitch will generally have a better feel of the game, but at the same time everything is happening at a very high speed and expecting the referee to have a proper sense of everything in front of him is naive, especially when it’s generally preventing VAR from getting involved. I easily reckon that if you remove referees and take Webb out of the VAR equation, give the job to a group of people with proper training on the actual rules, the end result would be miles better. I reckon if you sat them down, showed them clips of fouls in relation to goals, red cards etc, penalties for handball, they’d be on agreement on far more situations and create better consistency than what the current lot are doing, who seem to be a bit too much focused on it being a colleague.
Clattenburg and his admissions relating to the Tottenham vs Chelsea match was bad enough, Webb giving the vibes that it’s sort of an understanding that referees are more active than they should, to the point of ignoring the rules, is bizarre. We can’t have one set of rules for a few matches and then introduce something entirely different for the next round.
Shambles.
What i fail to understand is this focus on consequence rather than cause. For me, the entire focus should be on how the players are lunging into a tackle, that has much more to do with damage potential rather than coincidences afterwards. Like the Nketiah lunge at the Tottenham goalkeeper, he’s running towards the goalkeeper with plenty of pace and just throws himself in, he’s inches away from planting his studs high up his foot and he’s also just inches away from locking the goalkeepers foot between his body and the pitch, there’s so much potential for nasty long term injuries yet he escapes with a yellow. Then we have the Gusto challenge, where the outcome is much worse than the way he actually goes in, it’s more of a freak incident than anything else, instant red card. Kovacic needs to run to make up for the distance between him and Ødegaard, lunges in with plenty of pace and plants his studs on his ankle. Situational wise you literally have everything from the way you are lunging in to the end result, yet it’s a yellow card. Saka stamping Bruno’s ankle? You can clearly see he’s following through as well, there’s plenty of intent…For me, the Jones red card makes more sense because of the way he goes in, stamping downwards means that you increase the likelyhood of missing the ball and increasing the likelyhood of nasty injuries, it’s far worse than Gusto’s situation imo.
Again, this extra threshold related to “clear and obvious”, Webbs insistance on not re-refereeing matches and the referee on the pitch being the big boss, is simply leading to more problems than it’s solving. I get that they don’t want to open a can of worms, but what we’re stuck with is a system where identical situations will have different outcomes. Which was annoying enough years ago, but when you factor in VAR as a tool it just makes it more annoying. One week you get a red card and lose a key player for 3 matches, next weekend it’s an almost identical situation where the opposition only gets a yellow card. It should be fairly easy, the referee on the pitch will generally have a better feel of the game, but at the same time everything is happening at a very high speed and expecting the referee to have a proper sense of everything in front of him is naive, especially when it’s generally preventing VAR from getting involved. I easily reckon that if you remove referees and take Webb out of the VAR equation, give the job to a group of people with proper training on the actual rules, the end result would be miles better. I reckon if you sat them down, showed them clips of fouls in relation to goals, red cards etc, penalties for handball, they’d be on agreement on far more situations and create better consistency than what the current lot are doing, who seem to be a bit too much focused on it being a colleague.
Clattenburg and his admissions relating to the Tottenham vs Chelsea match was bad enough, Webb giving the vibes that it’s sort of an understanding that referees are more active than they should, to the point of ignoring the rules, is bizarre. We can’t have one set of rules for a few matches and then introduce something entirely different for the next round.
Shambles.
"For me, Webb seems to be all authority and not enough brain for the job."
Webb was a police officer in South Yorkshire!
"Webb giving the vibes that it’s sort of an understanding that referees are more active than they should, to the point of ignoring the rules, is bizarre."
This confirms what I have thought for a long time, particularly since the introduction of VAR.
This has got a lot of people talking and a lot moaning despite the fact there is zero proof to backup the claim
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Then why would you share it? Do you want people here to also talk and moan despite the fact there is zero proof to backup the claim?
Yeah and United would be in the titles race if we weren't getting fecked over by VAR nearly every game.
Bollocks.
Bollocks.
We should have 9 points more if we didn’t got crazy wierd decisions against us. Tottenham, Arsenal and Crystal Palace. Media don’t tell you that because of agenda against us.
Point against Spurs becaise of the handball? +1
Arsenal, Saka red card, Gabriel penalty, Garnacho offside, a foul on Evans for their second goal would have probably seen us win. +3
How were we shafted in the Brighton and Palace games?
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I read a stat that said Arsenal haver received more penalties this season so far than we've received this season and last...
The stat I really want to know is what are the amount of penalties we got over the last 2 or 3 seasons ? I think those stats would be crazy.
Webb saying Oliver is a cnut who will give out decisions that fits his agenda. Sounds about right. The best English ref.
Palace one was a handball. You don't get to turn your back on a ball travelling 40 yards and have it unfortunately touch your arm.
The worst thing is how are you going to let your refs go and ref in a country that own one of the teams in your own league.
I read something that stated Oliver was in the UAE refereeing a game in the UAE league and a week later he's reffing a City game. He's literally employed by a team in the league.
Brighton won without any problems. I have no problem with that.
Crystal Palace won because they scored a goal that we got denied against Burnley. A player standing in offside position and affected our goalkeeper. Even if the shot was unstoppable. Just like Evans header. Similar goals, different outcome. The second big decision is clear handball by Crystal Palace player that somehow referee or VAR didn't see despite 500 cameras.
Against Tottenham we were denied stonewall penalty when game was 0-0 and we all know how important first goal is against tougher sides.
If english football don't see any problem with this I don't know what to say. It is like employing referees to work in our shops or as ManUtd guide during weeks and let them take charge of games weekends when our rivals play.
Only in England VAR is shite.
One of the worst VAR calls you'll see. Dreadful
I hate football. Absolutely fuming. Disgusting officiating.
What the actual feck happend there? Makes you wonder.... Spain and all ..
So it was a foul when it was VAR'd and then updated to offside?
Yep forgot about those, that could have been another 3 points for us. Even if we drew the Spurs game, that would have been 7+ points. Would have seen us on top with 19 points.
fecking VAR.
Aye - referee made the call at the screen.
Then it was later updated to offside, I have yet to see a proper screeshot or angle that proves he was definitely offside. Even you look at the video on the tweet and pause it very carefully between 38/39 seconds as McT strikes the ball you can see how much Hendry moves between frames. I still can't see any angle that proves he was 100% offside and interfering with the keeper when he makes contact.
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It's disgusting how protected keepers are. It's like they get pity for being the least talented football players on the pitch. Fecking joke.
I've been hearing that for years. I'm not sure what it actually means.
It's a bad look but it's silly to think they're actually giving calls to different teams because of the trips to the UAE.
You can have it both ways. Some laws are open to interpretation and some aren't. Plus interpretation doesn't mean you can make up anything. It just means a small amount of room. If a midfielder is told to keep back it doesn't mean he either stays in his box or ignores the manager and plays striker.
Yep. For all the outrage over the non penalty against Onana, it was consistent with the tradition of keepers being allowed to smash into outfielders and get away with it.
Au contraire: football is a wonderful sport but its main function is to facilitate the world's greatest sports discipline - goalkeeping. Outfield players surely enjoy their football, but at the back of their minds there's an enduring sadness that they'll never be goalkeepers.
Not blowing for fouls, carding or even sending off players when it's obvious they should be.
Giving 50/50s overwhelmingly to one side (usually an underdog).
"Evening up" big calls.
There are a few ways they do it.
Fecking disgrace last night. McT absolutely robbed and Scotland robbed of a chance of beating Spain in their own back yard and qualifying with 6/6 wins. Atrocious.
Its weird seeing this called off. Teams used to do much worse to De Gea but that was never called out. To me that should be allowed and its simply a weak goalkeeper.
So firstly I think the keeper isnt saving it anyway because he's been caught by surprise and hasnt reacted. So hes lucky.
That said the player is in the keeper's eyeline and ahead of the ball being struck by McTom. And then he goes one further and makes physical contact with the keeper, even if its small, so he's clearly interacting with play around him/in his eyeline. So that would be offside unless I'm missing something
That said the player is in the keeper's eyeline and ahead of the ball being struck by McTom. And then he goes one further and makes physical contact with the keeper, even if its small, so he's clearly interacting with play around him/in his eyeline. So that would be offside unless I'm missing something
The Spanish and referees, its been the same story for years.
That was from corners though. When the player interfering with DDG couldn’t be offside. You’re allowed to stand your ground in the way of the keeper if you’re not offside.
But it wasnt called of as an offside, it was called off as a foul. They later changed it, probably to avoid backlash.
The angle the referee was shown on the VAR screen doesn't even show the moment he strikes the ball, it just shows McTominay's head. Hendry doesn't really impede the keeper he just stands his ground. There's no way the referee could clearly see he was offside when the ball was played from that clip in order to make the correct decision. They also never mentioned offside or drew any lines to prove he was offside.
They initially chalked it off for the "foul" and then changed their minds about 20 mins later. That's the real problem here, they went looking for a reason to disallow the goal and found the smallest one, made the call and then made up a new reason later on.
It was absolutely shocking decision making from the officials and if that had happened at the other end there was no way it would have been disallowed.
I think this angle from behind the goal gives the best view of the McTominay non-goal.
https://x.com/viaplaysportsuk/status/1712564534454480939?s=46&t=r8QrK9qI12I8pp7QbO3tsg
I genuinely can’t see anything close to a foul here. The keeper seems to be just wanting to avoid any physical contact by jumping behind the line, DDG-style. He makes absolutely no effort to move towards the ball. And there’s a defender who’s pretty much on the line when the free kick is taken so it can’t be offside either. Incredibly soft decision. Scotland and McT very hard done by.
https://x.com/viaplaysportsuk/status/1712564534454480939?s=46&t=r8QrK9qI12I8pp7QbO3tsg
I genuinely can’t see anything close to a foul here. The keeper seems to be just wanting to avoid any physical contact by jumping behind the line, DDG-style. He makes absolutely no effort to move towards the ball. And there’s a defender who’s pretty much on the line when the free kick is taken so it can’t be offside either. Incredibly soft decision. Scotland and McT very hard done by.
They awarded a foul then changed it to offside. Fecking nonsense.