Vardy's challenge on Mustafi, deserved Red?

[Rish Sawhney]

So there is nothing to argue/debate for any penalty decision and red card as Ref and VAR both make the decision, so you can't argue against that.

"Its not a red card, Ref and VAR agree with me"
"It's a penalty, Ref and VAR agree with me"

I'm gonna defend him a little. He's just saying if the ref and VAR agree with him then it's not as if it's an unreasonable position to take.

As for the incident I can see it going both ways. Nketiah's is much more clear cut as he's facing the player he's lunging into and he's going in with studs showing, but I think the Vardy one - if not intentional - is not really dangerous play. Falling over and accidentally hitting someone is different from lunging in dangerously and accidentally hitting someone. Of course I would totally believe that it was intentional, even if not at the face in that case it's definitely a red.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

People still trying to argue with Rafael, for your sake just give up, he's too far gone The annoying thing is i'm sure if Nketiah gets sent off first then Vardy does that, there would have been bigger consequences. He clearly meant to get one in hoping to catch him in the back or back of his legs. We see instances of these every game from defenders or attackers that just got floored and try to get justice for themselves (Lacazette does that at least 3 times a game, it's mental) 99% of the time it just gets the opponent riled and nobody gets hurt. But when you throw blades at the face of a player and gives him 2 bloody gash then maybe, just maybe, you should have a little word and review the incident. Mustafi was clearly getting treated, they had all the time in the world to look at it. But it's Vardy so that's a no go.

It’s so simple yet you can’t see it. Just like prime Wenger.

Nketia deserved to get sent off, as he intentionally went for a tackle which he severely misstimed

Vardy was falling over. Therefore not intending to tackle etc. Not intending to do anything football related. He’s FALLING OVER. Therefore not a red, as it’s not an attempted challenge, he’s FALLING OVER.

It’s really really not that difficult to comprehend

 

[BobbyManc]

I think Vardy is deliberately careless with some intent of striking out at Mustafi but obviously not wishing to contact him in the head. It’s a red card for sure, although I can kind of understand why VAR gave him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[tenpoless]

Yeah I think it's a red. He kicked Mustafi in the face.

Although I don't really see the point of VAR since it's implementation.
Sometimes it's the ref basing his decision on VAR.
Sometimes it's the ref ignoring a clear, blatant foul on VAR.

Isn't the point of VAR to help referees replay events and make sure they get it right?

 

[El Zoido]

This.
But this is the CAF so people are going to hold steadfast to their opinion and argue back and forth even though there is zero chance of changing the other persons mind or them changing yours. Fun Times.
Yes I'm saying that I hold steadfast to my opinion just as much as everybody else on here. I just get bored quicker and move on.

You don’t have to prove it was deliberate, Nketiah’s looked accidental but he got sent off because it was dangerous. Vardy made a deliberate kick towards a player and cut their face open with his studs. What’s the difference?

 

[Rafaeldagold]

You don’t have to prove it was deliberate, Nketiah’s looked accidental but he got sent off because it was dangerous. Vardy made a deliberate kick towards a player and cut their face open with his studs. What’s the difference?

Nketia deserved to get sent off, as he intentionally went for a tackle which he severely misstimed

Vardy was falling over. Therefore not intending to tackle etc. Not intending to do anything football related. He’s FALLING OVER. Therefore not a red, as it’s not an attempted challenge, he’s FALLING OVER.

So you 100% have to prove that his was deliberate

It’s really really not that difficult to comprehend

 

[arnie_ni]

Looks completely accidental to me. No way would I give a red card for that.

Slow motion is terrible for judging intent.

Intent doesnt matter in red cards.

No one intends to put in a challenge to hurt or get a red card but it still happens.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It’s so simple yet you can’t see it. Just like prime Wenger.

Nketia deserved to get sent off, as he intentionally went for a tackle which he severely misstimed

Vardy was falling over. Therefore not intending to tackle etc. Not intending to do anything football related. He’s FALLING OVER. Therefore not a red, as it’s not an attempted challenge, he’s FALLING OVER.

It’s really really not that difficult to comprehend

You seem unable to comprehend that the falling and the kicking him in the face are completely unrelated, it's 2 different actions. Him falling didn't make him kick Vardy in the face

Vardy lost his rag and kicked out. Red card all day.

 

[El Zoido]

I'm gonna defend him a little. He's just saying if the ref and VAR agree with him then it's not as if it's an unreasonable position to take.

As for the incident I can see it going both ways. Nketiah's is much more clear cut as he's facing the player he's lunging into and he's going in with studs showing, but I think the Vardy one - if not intentional - is not really dangerous play. Falling over and accidentally hitting someone is different from lunging in dangerously and accidentally hitting someone. Of course I would totally believe that it was intentional, even if not at the face in that case it's definitely a red.

He literally kicks his foot out, swings it towards the player when there was absolutely zero reason to do so. So he’s not just falling over, he kicks, clearly and deliberately, in the direction of Mustafi, and in the opposite direction to which he’s falling. If he hadn’t kicked out he wouldn’t have touched him, it can only be deliberate.

 

[Van Piorsing]

I saw this many times. Two players going into challenge for the ball, both going down on the ground and wave their legs like they can't feel opponent is close. Vardy didn't saw the ball or the opponent, but made the move to kick. He didn't kicked the ball and he nearly kicked the eyes out of Mustafi.

Ref had a right to give red card, but decided they went both for physical challenge and kick happened on accident. Looked dirty enough to me. Red wouldn't be that much of overreaction, imo.

 

[roonster09]

No but VAR is the saviour you all wanted yet you don’t trust it in games.
Hilarious

 

[awop]

Nketia deserved to get sent off, as he intentionally went for a tackle which he severely misstimed

Vardy was falling over. Therefore not intending to tackle etc. Not intending to do anything football related. He’s FALLING OVER. Therefore not a red, as it’s not an attempted challenge, he’s FALLING OVER.

So you 100% have to prove that his was deliberate

It’s really really not that difficult to comprehend

I agree, Vardy's kick had nothing to do with football, glad you finally see it for what it is. If you think this is a natural thing to happen when falling, i hope nobody's ever around you if you fall. He had a petulent reaction like he has many, that's part of his style, he's agressive and there's nothing wrong with that. But it stops being cute when you leave an opponent with blood pouring down his cheek (or the possibility of a broken leg for Nketiah).

 

[Fully Fledged]

You don’t have to prove it was deliberate, Nketiah’s looked accidental but he got sent off because it was dangerous. Vardy made a deliberate kick towards a player and cut their face open with his studs. What’s the difference?

Okay I know I'm not going to change anybodies mind here but anyway.
Nketiah went into a tackle with his foot raised. He was in total control of that foot. He knew that if his foot missed the ball and impacted the player he would do so around knee level. He went into a tackle with his foot in a dangerous position so it makes no difference whether he meant to hurt his opponent or not.

Vardy had fallen over by definition he was out of control. As I've said above in some martial arts you are taught to raise you leg when you impact the ground to release the force of the impact, if you fall like a dead weight the force of the fall goes into your body breaking bones and bruising muscles. Did his leg come up as part of a well executed break-fall or did he swing out to hurt the other player I don't know so for me it's not a red.

Knowing Vardy he probably meant it but I don't think that you should judge an incident based on who is involved.

 

[Motorman]

For me it's a red. He swings it round to catch him, so any intent means it's a red based on where it hit him.

Did the ref see it in game? Wondering if FA could look back on it now and issue red? Or does the fact VAR is running all game, mean this can no longer happen?

 

[lysglimt]

Considering we didn't get Maguire sent off against Chelsea, we really can't complain too much

 

[iHicksy]

No he’s falling over. It’s nothing to do with the laws of the game ie) handball or a reckless challenge.

So yes if you’re falling over & accidentally catch someone in the face then absolutely you have to prove it was deliberate

It doesn't matter that he's falling over. If you fall over and use that as an opportunity to kick out at someone with applied force then it's attempt to do harm and is a red card. The same way that if you're falling and you use it as an opportunity to palm the ball with your hand and make it look accidental. You're entitled to think it was accidental. But you're applying the bias that you're certain it was accidental to the verdict that they can't be punished on that basis. When it's not clear cut that it was accidental. In the majority of people's opinions it is lashing out in a moment of anger, hence it doesn't have to be proved. Because like I've said there's no "proof" when it comes to these things in football, only opinions. And few people's opinions count. None of them on this forum. So this is the last i'll say on it.

 

[ghaliboy]

He falls over and his boot hits another guys head. Surprised this doesn't happen more often.

 

[WeePat]

Question is - Should intention matter when you've kicked someone in the head? It most often then not doesn't matter when you connect with someones leg/shin and get sent off.

It would matter if Vardy's studs accidentally caught Mustafi while Vardy was tumbling to the floor after a challenge. To me the replays showed a hint of intentional force, but it's difficult to spot by the ref. VAR should have sorted it out and given him a red.

 

[El Zoido]

Okay I know I'm not going to change anybodies mind here but anyway.
Nketiah went into a tackle with his foot raised. He was in total control of that foot. He knew that if his foot missed the ball and impacted the player he would do so around knee level. He went into a tackle with his foot in a dangerous position so it makes no difference whether he meant to hurt his opponent or not.

Vardy had fallen over by definition he was out of control. As I've said above in some martial arts you are taught to raise you leg when you impact the ground to release the force of the impact, if you fall like a dead weight the force of the fall goes into your body breaking bones and bruising muscles. Did his leg come up as part of a well executed break-fall or did he swing out to hurt the other player I don't know so for me it's not a red.

Knowing Vardy he probably meant it but I don't think that you should judge an incident based on who is involved.

Well the difference for me is that Nketiah wasn’t thinking of the opposition player, he was 100% focused on the ball and collided with the leg of another player because his stretched leg had to plant. It happened so fast, a Leicester player had got in the way. I agree it’s a red but for me was an genuine accident after an enthusiastic attempt at the ball.

Vardy on the other hand, this isn’t some advanced martial arts falling technique. His left foot is literally already grounded. Just look at the picture.


He’s already falling forward, so just drop. There’s no way in this world his roundhouse kick towards the player was at all normal or necessary. He didn’t need to do it, he chose to do it.

 

[saivet]

Considering we didn't get Maguire sent off against Chelsea, we really can't complain too much

I thought the Maguire one was a definite red card, as with Lo Celso stamp vs Chelsea. I feel like the Vardy one was probably not as bad and looked the least intentional, but on balance still should have been a red card.

It feels like VAR is letting players get away with more red card offences than harshly punishing anyone.

 

[christy87]

The man could of lost an eye there, it was pure luck he didn't, straight red for me, it is dangerous play after all and he was out of control.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

The man could of lost an eye there, it was pure luck he didn't, straight red for me, it is dangerous play after all and he was out of control.

Yes let’s stop players challenging for balls anymore as they could fall & accidentally take someone’s eye out.

Out of control falling down there- despicable.

Let’s make football like basketball with no contact allowed as any contact could lead to someone’s eye out.

 

[Kasper]

Very very sure that was intentional. You don't go down swinging your leg like that, Vardy probably slashed out in the heat of the moment trying to kick him but didn't aim for the face deliberately. Still a red card, although it's a grey zone I think one could establish intent going by the pictures.

 

[tombombadil]

In my view, falling down and accidentally kicking someone is not a red card.

So for Vardy's case, it can only be judged as either an accident and it is not his fault, or it was deliberate and he deserves a red. The second video definitely makes Vardy look dodgy but it's so hard to prove intent in situations like these, because a lot of it is a blur.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Well the difference for me is that Nketiah wasn’t thinking of the opposition player, he was 100% focused on the ball and collided with the leg of another player because his stretched leg had to plant. It happened so fast, a Leicester player had got in the way. I agree it’s a red but for me was an genuine accident after an enthusiastic attempt at the ball.

Vardy on the other hand, this isn’t some advanced martial arts falling technique. His left foot is literally already grounded. Just look at the picture.


He’s already falling forward, so just drop. There’s no way in this world his roundhouse kick towards the player was at all normal or necessary. He didn’t need to do it, he chose to do it.

As I said above we really are not going to change each others opinions.

 

[do.ob]

I really don't see the issue.

Nketia went into a tackle "open sole" and hit his opponent above the ankle, as far as I know those are two key criteria for reckless play and a red card offense, regardless of intend.

Vardy's case is much less clear, because here intend is actually the determining factor. After watching the first replay of the OP I'm not sure he even saw Mustafi and regardless it's not so easy for a ref to just say with conviction that he wasn't just swinging his leg to complete the body roll. So I can fully understand why VAR didn't call it a clear mistake.

 

[montpelier]

I'm not sure.

But I do know it's easy to send Nketiah off - ordinary football incident, looks exactly like the kind of tackle we don't like

Vardy - is falling over, leg is flailing, there's been a collision, it isn't Vardy intentionally making a reckless movement (not at the start, anyway)

VAR supports the ref's decision 98 % of time, so they've only done that again.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

He’s already falling forward, so just drop. There’s no way in this world his roundhouse kick towards the player was at all normal or necessary. He didn’t need to do it, he chose to do it.

This should be /thread. As you say, his foot is planted. It’s hardly accidental that he then goes on to flail himself 180 degrees and throws out a leg in that situation, with some force too.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

He’s already falling forward, so just drop. There’s no way in this world his roundhouse kick towards the player was at all normal or necessary. He didn’t need to do it, he chose to do it.

It's a very nicely executed roundhouse alright. No one falls like that.

 

[DarkChild™]

I thought it was a red card on replay. I was surprised it wasn't under red card review while Mustafi was getting treated. Hope they review this and ban him, could have been way worse if he connected with his eye.

 

[Eugenius]

It's clearly a red card. Intent or not, he definitely knows the player is there and
his foot is in an unnatural and avoidable position - there's no reason for him to be swinging his left leg around, he doesn't seem to be trying to plant it to stop his momentum.

 

[baskinginthesun]

So I guess we are at the point where it's ok to kick some in the head (accidental or not) and still be allowed to remain on the pitch. So much for concussion protocol, which is a hot topic in football.

This is borderline accidental at best. I feel Vardy is aware of Mustafi falling close to him and he should have done everything he could have to limit the motion of his leg and boot. I just don't feel he's trying hard to enough to avoid contact. This should have been a red.

 

[MadMike]

Well the difference for me is that Nketiah wasn’t thinking of the opposition player, he was 100% focused on the ball and collided with the leg of another player because his stretched leg had to plant. It happened so fast, a Leicester player had got in the way. I agree it’s a red but for me was an genuine accident after an enthusiastic attempt at the ball.

Vardy on the other hand, this isn’t some advanced martial arts falling technique. His left foot is literally already grounded. Just look at the picture.


He’s already falling forward, so just drop. There’s no way in this world his roundhouse kick towards the player was at all normal or necessary. He didn’t need to do it, he chose to do it.

He's not falling forward only, the static image is deceiving you. They have momentum towards the right, which is the direction of the ball they are challenging for and the direction they were heading towards when they collided.

I'm not saying it's intentional or not. But simply using a static image to infer momentum doesn't work.

 

[montpelier]

So I guess we are at the point where it's ok to kick some in the head (accidental or not) and still be allowed to remain on the pitch. So much for concussion protocol, which is a hot topic in football.

This is borderline accidental at best. I feel Vardy is aware of Mustafi falling close to him and he should have done everything he could have to limit the motion of his leg and boot. I just don't feel he's trying hard to enough to avoid contact. This should have been a red.

I could go along with that. The argument Vardy doesn't take any care = red card.

It's better than everyone being sure it was deliberate, because I don't think you can be.

 

[El Zoido]

He's not falling forward only, the static image is deceiving you. They have momentum towards the right, which is the direction of the ball they are challenging for and the direction they were heading towards when they collided.

I'm not saying it's intentional or not. But simply using a static image to infer momentum doesn't work.

Watch it again, his rotating momentum has almost completely stopped by the time he swings his leg around. In fact, his left leg planting on the ground is what stops the momentum of his left foot. Then he lifts it and swings it in a roundhouse kick style. The ONLY way this can happen, is if he did it on purpose.

I’ll give him the benefit of that doubt in that he didn’t deliberately attempt to kick someone in the face. He’s just leaving a bit of afters and didn’t expect Mustafi’s head to be there. But I really feel this is clearly deliberate, I’m only getting so invested in this because I can’t possibly see an argument for this being an accident. It’s so obvious what he’s doing.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think we should give Vardy the benefit of the doubt here, it's not like he has a history of being a cnut and making horrible tackles. besides it's obviously difficult to have a good center of balance with a chin that huge.

 

[Evans999]

I don't think it was intentional. But I also think he had ample opportunity to stop his foot from hitting mustafis head and once he saw the situation that was unfolding actively did nothing to prevent it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I don't think it was intentional. But I also think he had ample opportunity to stop his foot from hitting mustafis head and once he saw the situation that was unfolding actively did nothing to prevent it.

So you do think it was intentional.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Bigger point for me is that Arsenal red card was identical to a challenge a Bournemouth player did to us, which was only yellow (The one which made Solskjaer shake his head watching the TV Screen)

VAR is so inconsistent that I’d rather not bother with it

 

[Evans999]

So you do think it was intentional.

I think he hung his foot out there to see what happens, don't think meant to cut his face.