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I do completely agree that defending is a team job not just a CB job. And I knew going into this season our defense would be more exposed without Ander in front of them. AWB is a bonus at right back instead of players like Young. But its not the same thing as having a proper ball winning DM.
A ball playing CB can pass to both fullbacks long or short. All the attacking players are also options. So there's more than just Pogba to pass it to..
A DM wouldn’t be expected to run back past the CB with a player from a routine punt downfield like that
That’s where I’m at
Isn't that the problem we have? All he can do is hit a long ball and with the opposing defence so compact and none of our strikers being good headers of the ball and none of them hold the ball up we obviously lose possession and they come back with us immediately. Yes he can pass to Maguire and DeGea and a short pass to AWB and get it back and pass to Maguire and Degea again. So what does it do? If he pass to Scott, he cannot do anything apart from pass to Pogba. So Lindelof may as well pass to Pogba too.
We're obviously struggling to break down teams who defend in numbers. But there's been many instances in the past year where there's been ample opportunities to pass through the lines due to the opposition committing men forward and leaving space for the likes of Rashford, Martial etc. Maguire played two long passes to Shaw against Palace for instance which didn't come off. With our midfield relying so heavily on Pogba to provide the creativity I think it would be beneficial if our CBs take the initiative and try and break lines instead of just pass it to Pogba like you suggested.
I agree, and would prefer playing through line more often rather than long balls as they are often inaccurate and seldom create anything more than loss of possesion. Both Lindelof and Maguore are good at driving the ball up the pitch and would like to see that more as well. Maguire has done it a few times but seem to stop because he doesn't find any midfielder and the momentum is lost.
The midfield is the big issue for us with teams sitting back and ceding possession. We really shouldn't be asking the CBs to break lines against the so called cannon fodder, but sadly our midfield is such a state right now that teams just let us have possession and control the game without the ball. Playing against us right now is simple, stay tight on Pogba and the rest will be dealt with comfortably.
I didn't suggest he pass to Pogba all the time. When teams like Palace crowd the space CBs can only do is hit long pass and none of our forward can head the ball and beat their CBs. Plus they do not have the guile to double up on one defender like they did to us. They also do not play a highline.
The issue is, we have a midfielder and a #10 (McTominay and Lingard) currently starting games for us who just aren't good enough. McTominay wasn't anything more than average coming through the ranks but is starting games for us. Lingard was above average coming through but is tasked with being Manchester United's starting #10. Keane and Scholes were great players and the aforementioned shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
Maguire had no problems passing long to Rashford and Shaw. Lindelof passes short because the opposing FBs intercept the ball everytime he gets it off the ground, deep defence or not.
You dont need to play a long pass in the air. You can play it to feet or for them to run onto. That solves everything you just described because Martial has good control and can run in behind the defense, as can Rashford. Lingard and the rest are giving options deeper. James is lightning down the right if he plays him in.
I don't think that's fair on him, I'd say him and Maguire are about the same level technically (they're both above average but nothing amazing, just one is English and 'ball playing defender' is a buzzword) - worth noting Maguire's long range passing has been pretty hit and miss in the short time he's been with us so if you're criticising one, it's only fair to criticise both on this front.
It's not really true. Maguire tried a little but it is hard when they face compact midfield. More or less all his long balls were pointless or loss of possession. I like it better when he tries to dribble or run through.
Maguire played a few longs passes out to the left wing against Palace, and they weren't pointless.
Maguire has proven at leicester that he can create with his passes. Lindelof hasnt
We are not bringing in a couple of midfielders in January! I keep hearing this but it’s fantasy and wishful thinking. We had a whole summer to do this and we never looked close to doing it.
I didn't think they were worth the risk of losing the ball as a few of them went over the line. But of course we can have different definitions of what pointless is. It offers some variation.
He didn't complete all of his attempted forward passes, but more often than not, he successfully advanced play. Lindelof on the other hand receives the ball and passes to Maguire or AWB, rinse and repeat. That's pointless passing.
Don't disagree with the rest of your post and many other's view in that it is a team and therefore fundamental issue with regards to breaking teams down. However, Maguire has definitely shown more in these three games that he is far superior to Lindelof in every aspect including ball playing.
I dont think you understand me. I appreciate the variation that Maguires long balls offer, just that I think most of them were pointless. That is not his fault. There is hardly any movement at all in the midfield. Also many of the long balls were to the FB and a moment later they were back again. Lindelof had some similar down his wing but he hit them along the ground instead. Very useful against teams who press but nothing really happens when opposite team sit back and fill the midfield with players.
He's definitely better in other aspects but as for ball playing, I'm yet to be convinced he's much different to Lindelof but here's to hoping. On the penetrative piece, I don't think that's a CB issue - both Lindelof and Maguire are capable of making those types of passes, I'd say the majority of top CBs are, but they have to have options. It's no good zinging one into Lingard's feet when he's marked and McT and Pog usually operate too deep so any pass to them seems 'simple' or 'safe'. That leaves long balls which are pretty easy to deal with for any decent defence (save ours vs Palace with the ridiculous goal that prompted all this debate) or working it wide where we always come up against the issue that we don't have natural wingers and so the ball usually gets lost or recycled back to a non threatening position and the opposition have plenty of time to get into their defensive shape.
And Sanchez was incredible for Arsenal. If you read my post, my main point is that I think even if we had 2 Rio Ferdinand's at the back, they'd be so limited in where they can pass forward maybe some fans would think they weren't great passers as well. If you ever sit in a stadium high up behind a goal, you get an interesting view of the passing lanes coming out from CB - I'd be keen to see how we compare to other teams because I'd bet our CMs pick up the ball way deeper than any other top 6 team and in far less dangerous positions.
The caf consensus was that our midfield drop that deep because of Chris Smalling. He's not playing.
His lost header against Huddersfield comes close.
I've literally never heard that before and I don't see how anyone who watches us play would think that. We play the same way with any combination of CBs.
Welp thats what I was told. I argued that too, when Smalling didnt play last season we still played those deep passes. I must admit I thought it was because of Matic though. He's not there either.
Or his ghost header against Chelsea under absolutely no pressure, just this season. Truth is, the guy is unreliable especially in the air.
The missed header led to a 1-on-1, not sure why the ‘middle of the pitch’ should alleviate responsibility.
Can you name some of these aspects you think Lindelof is definitely better than Maguire? Looking nice and tidy i.e square passes and non-tackling (by that I don't mean he has to go all AWB but pressing welll, closing space, making body contact to disrupt the momentum and not just shepherding) doesn't do anything for me.
On top of that he tends to shy away from a few physical situations as well. I'll never forget how Mooy destroyed him in his first season with us.
You've misread my post - I'm saying Maguire is definitely better than Lindelof in other aspects but I don't think they're that dissimilar when it comes to passing ability.
A lost header like that should never lead to a player being put through on goal, normally the other cb smells the danger and steps in, the goal is more on Maguire than Lindelöf.
