[A-man]

What teams are these? Only six is not enough I think we should be better.

That Lindelof vs Bailly stat is only from this season? Or last one too?

West Ham, Everton, Brighton, Villa, City, and Liverpool have conceded fewer corners than us.
The problem is not how many corners we concede, it’s quite normal. The problem is that 12% end up in goal.
The data come from this season, so not so many matches and a large variation between matches. Don’t think I can extract this data from last season and it wouldn’t add so much anyway, as Bailly only started one game last season.

Yeah because Chris Hemsworth and Doug Stanhope both walk into bars and say hello to women, it yields the same results.

Depends on what result you’re looking at. If you’re going to a bar you’re probably looking to score. Our defenders try to stop that. Goals conceded?
Virgil van Dijk 11 goals conceded in 4.1 matches
Lindelof 15 goals conceded in 12 matches.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Sorry I don’t agree at all, and that first sentence is just very condescending

I feel like you’re thinking I’m expecting him to run around like a headless chicken and fly into tackles all over the pitch? Clearly not.

lindelof though does need to find a balance in his play - so many times he’s had the chance to shut an attack down before it gets to the box, win a foul early and don’t let the team make progress up the pitch. Instead he will retreat back into shape and let everybody else do the work, they end up getting to our goal and putting in a dangerous cross or shot.

there is no 1 way to defend, but you need to be capable of doing it both ways.

the thing for me is he’s just not great at either. We could go the physical monster approach and play a higher line, or we could play a deeper line and get somebody like dunk or vestergaard who would dominate the box a lot more.

Lindelof to me is a CDM who somehow ended up playing as a centre back. Maybe in Portugal against smaller technical players he can get away with it, but not in England.

I was being a bit of a wind up in the opener but I do think there is a gap between those who appreciate what a huge part of defending is about and those who like to see the defender physically engaging in winning a ball back.

Defending isn’t about 1-1 winning the ball off your man it’s more and more about positioning and in a team where we are perfectly set up for counters I think a player like Lindelof with the ability to slow down offensive actions is important.

Lindelof giving away fouls doesn’t help as he can get the same result (delaying the attack to get us back into shape) by jockeying. If he were to give away fouls we’d also be at greater risk of conceding as we are woeful at defending set pieces.

Retreating back into shape is absolutely what most top defenders are instructed to do what you are describing is textbook defending in most modern sides. If your press is beaten the last thing you want is your CB playing the high risk game of flying into a tackle and tactically fouling especially if you have a side weak on set pieces.

What is frustrating is Lindelof does have balance in his play but so many don’t understand the context of his actions and don’t look at how much benefit we get from him delaying they’ll instead want to see a tackle.

I would ask you do one thing and watch not just what Lindelof does but look around him at the situation he is in his to alternatively read up on defending in the modern game again I don’t know your level of coaching experience but I would guess without meaning to be rude that you’ve not ever studied and coached.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

My question would be if Lindelof isn’t good enough who exactly in world football do you replace him with?

Name me a player who is available with the necessary experience and attributes that can slot right into this side and improve it without question.

 

[MikeKing]

Depends on what result you’re looking at. If you’re going to a bar you’re probably looking to score. Our defenders try to stop that. Goals conceded?
Virgil van Dijk 11 goals conceded in 4.1 matches
Lindelof 15 goals conceded in 12 matches.

That is both funny and cute I can't lie. My point was that while Lindelof "lead attackers out" it means nothing in comparison to Van Djik who does the same when the action they take after the fact is way different. One doesn't even try to hit on any girl and instead gets laughs, and one leaves with the lady as intended. Just because they "do the same thing" doesn't mean it's the same thing they do. I will stop with the analogies if you stop with the stats.

 

[A-man]

That is both funny and cute I can't lie. My point was that while Lindelof "lead attackers out" it means nothing in comparison to Van Djik who does the same when the action they take after the fact is way different. One doesn't even try to hit on any girl and instead gets laughs, and one leaves with the lady as intended. Just because they "do the same thing" doesn't mean it's the same thing they do. I will stop with the analogies if you stop with the stats.

Yeah the reason why you miss the target again seems to be that you didn’t understand what we were talking about. If we generalise, Bailly has a style where he attacks high up to win back the ball, Lindelof has a style where he follows and stalls attackers. The best is obviously to master both ways of playing and having the ability to chose right style depending on the situation. Very few centre backs have that ability, but imo VvD is one of them and that’s what makes him so great.

 

[MikeKing]

Yeah the reason why you miss the target again seems to be that you didn’t understand what we were talking about. If we generalise, Bailly has a style where he attacks high up to win back the ball, Lindelof has a style where he follows and stalls attackers. The best is obviously to master both ways of playing and having the ability to chose right style depending on the situation. Very few centre backs have that ability, but imo VvD is one of them and that’s what makes him so great.

Lindelof doesn't have a similar style to Van Djik point blank because the point is Van Djik does something and defends while Lindelof imitates his movement and do nothing. He is not a proactive defender, he doesn't sense danger, he reacts to it by retreating into position. He does this well mind you, at times he can miss with his positioning sure but at least he sticks to what he does. To me this means he is disciplined. However, playing in such a cowardly way consistently isn't something you can do at a top club and is the exact reason I want him gone from the first eleven. He won't change his style of not combatting, and when he tries to do some actual defending it's really just very average.

The entire team struggle to play a high line with him and that's a fact so any stats shown will be useless to compare because until recently when Bailly hit some form we've only played the way we have with Lindelof. We haven't seen another dimension or what we can gain longterm with another defender, so it's no way of proving it to you. It's not just a gut feeling however, it is based on how the team is made up and two-three seasons with Lindelof.

He is a big reason we struggle when we concede possession because he defends deep to protect himself and plays poorly out the back. It's the exact opposite of what Van Djik tries to do, and he actually has the pace to play a high line and the physicality to be aggressive. Lindelof hasn't got those qualities so no improvement will be made in either area.

 

[A-man]

Lindelof doesn't have a similar style to Van Djik point blank because the point is Van Djik does something and defends while Lindelof imitates his movement and do nothing. He is not a proactive defender, he doesn't sense danger, he reacts to it by retreating into position. He does this well mind you, at times he can miss with his positioning sure but at least he sticks to what he does. To me this means he is disciplined. However, playing in such a cowardly way consistently isn't something you can do at a top club and is the exact reason I want him gone from the first eleven. He won't change his style of not combatting, and when he tries to do some actual defending it's really just very average.

The entire team struggle to play a high line with him and that's a fact so any stats shown will be useless to compare because until recently when Bailly hit some form we've only played the way we have with Lindelof. We haven't seen another dimension or what we can gain longterm with another defender, so it's no way of proving it to you. It's not just a gut feeling however, it is based on how the team is made up and two-three seasons with Lindelof.

He is a big reason we struggle when we concede possession because he defends deep to protect himself and plays poorly out the back. It's the exact opposite of what Van Djik tries to do, and he actually has the pace to play a high line and the physicality to be aggressive. Lindelof hasn't got those qualities so no improvement will be made in either area.

I think you need to read again. Lindelof often neutralises his opponent by following them instead of tackling them. Bailly does not have this skill but van Dijk has this skill. Bailly has the skill to win back the ball early, van Dijk has this skill as well. VvD has skills that makes him a level above any defender at United.

And drop this ridiculous talk about being a coward. Very few goals conceded in open play, obviously it works no matter what your gut feeling tells us.

 

[Kag]

He’s terribly passive. It really is the right adjective. He drifts through games and doesn’t do a great deal wrong but this isn’t really the point. It’s abundantly obvious just how much better we are when Bailly is in the team and plays well.

Lindelof is that Skrel and Agger brand of defender Liverpool had, back when their supporters would try to convince themselves that they’d found their answer to Rio and Vidic. He’s a fine player to have around the squad but he isn’t a long term option for us.

 

[MikeKing]

I think you need to read again. Lindelof often neutralises his opponent by following them instead of tackling them. Bailly does not have this skill but van Dijk has this skill. Bailly has the skill to win back the ball early, van Dijk has this skill as well. VvD has skills that makes him a level above any defender at United.

And drop this ridiculous talk about being a coward. Very few goals conceded in open play, obviously it works no matter what your gut feeling tells us.

Following opponents isn't dope enough though. How is following someone neutralising to them? You have to actually stop them don't you for it to be neutralising. Lindelof is like a mall cop, when in trouble call real police.

 

[Jibbs]

He can be an amazing defender in a possession based team or in la liga but he would continue to struggle in man united setup.

 

[A-man]

Following opponents isn't dope enough though. How is following someone neutralising to them? You have to actually stop them don't you for it to be neutralising. Lindelof is like a mall cop, when in trouble call real police.

You follow but obviously also steer them to a poor angle. Quite standard defending. Football is a team effort, especially at this level even if some fans still believe in the hero CB who must do everything himself.

 

[MikeKing]

You follow but obviously also steer them to a poor angle. Quite standard defending. Football is a team effort, especially at this level even if some fans still believe in the hero CB who must do everything himself.

I think our team is fine, Lindelof isn't. If it's a tactic to be proactive and attack but also defend deep as a team that is fine. The problem with Lindelof is that he doesn't make the team better, he just gets help from the team. It's not only about his style, it's about his abilities. I think he would probably be a much more aggressive and dominant defender if he had the choice, the fact is he can't get much stronger or quicker and he knows it so he actively avoids proactive defending. It's an issue.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I think our team is fine, Lindelof isn't. If it's a tactic to be proactive and attack but also defend deep as a team that is fine. The problem with Lindelof is that he doesn't make the team better, he just gets help from the team. It's not only about his style, it's about his abilities. I think he would probably be a much more aggressive and dominant defender if he had the choice, the fact is he can't get much stronger or quicker and he knows it so he actively avoids proactive defending. It's an issue.

Reading the posts who praise Lindelof's 'ability' to stall attackers and be disciplined, you would think we have prime Maldini on our hands

The amount of over rating and use of stats to make it out like he is some undroppable elite talent, who is single handedly the reason for our defensive solidity and not our defensive, reactive, 2 x DM and extremely workman like style play is remarkable.

 

[Remember the geese]

In the post match press conference, Ole said that Lindelof, Shaw and Pogba missed out today through injury.

 

[A-man]

I think our team is fine, Lindelof isn't. If it's a tactic to be proactive and attack but also defend deep as a team that is fine. The problem with Lindelof is that he doesn't make the team better, he just gets help from the team. It's not only about his style, it's about his abilities. I think he would probably be a much more aggressive and dominant defender if he had the choice, the fact is he can't get much stronger or quicker and he knows it so he actively avoids proactive defending. It's an issue.

He clearly doesn’t avoid defending. We would not be in the position we are if he was half as bad as you make out. Most people would agree he’s had a good season so far. And if you look at his ratings in English newspapers his ratings are quite high. It’s mostly a handful of United supporters who believe he is completely worthless.

Reading the posts who praise Lindelof's 'ability' to stall attackers and be disciplined, you would think we have prime Maldini on our hands

The amount of over rating and use of stats to make it out like he is some undroppable elite talent, who is single handedly the reason for our defensive solidity and not our defensive, reactive, 2 x DM and extremely workman like style play is remarkable.

Lindelof had played most matches the last 2.5 years and is clearly part of the team. Weird that some can’t recognise that he has part in our current success in the league. It’s not only because of Fred and McT.
If you find stats difficult to understand, you can focus on the simple fact that our “defensive, reactive, 2xDM” set-up score more goals than we have in years.

 

[MikeKing]

He clearly doesn’t avoid defending. We would not be in the position we are if he was half as bad as you make out. Most people would agree he’s had a good season so far. And if you look at his ratings in English newspapers his ratings are quite high. It’s mostly a handful of United supporters who believe he is completely worthless.


Lindelof had played most matches the last 2.5 years and is clearly part of the team. Weird that some can’t recognise that he has part in our current success in the league. It’s not only because of Fred and McT.
If you find stats difficult to understand, you can focus on the simple fact that our “defensive, reactive, 2xDM” set-up score more goals than we have in years.

Nobody thinks he is completely worthless, and 'nobody' thinks he is Van Djik although it does seem like you're stretching it these days. We're having a considerably balanced debate on him I think so no need to paint those who don't rate him as less, with your stat game vs gut feelings. We have had plenty of valuable arguments to support our views and providing legitimate reasons for why we don't think he is all that, especially longterm, while you mostly in here to say 'we're doing well, eat it'. I haven't seen you debunk any claim of mine yet and I'm open to it generally if you can convince me logically, but random numbers isn't going to change my mind I'm not a robot.

Our team is trying it's best, and doing well. However, I don't think going out of semi-finals is cool longterm. I don't think we play amazing football and play out from the back very well or that our defence inspire confidence and trust going forward. We want to play a high line but succeed very rarely, why? We need to develop yes, but it's totally appropriate to notice that Lindelof doesn't have the ceiling of talent we're looking for in a first teamer. Even if you do like him, he is dispensable, you have to admit that.

 

[A-man]

Nobody thinks he is completely worthless, and 'nobody' thinks he is Van Djik although it does seem like you're stretching it these days. We're having a considerably balanced debate on him I think so no need to paint those who don't rate him as less, with your stat game vs gut feelings. We have had plenty of valuable arguments to support our views and providing legitimate reasons for why we don't think he is all that, especially longterm, while you mostly in here to say 'we're doing well, eat it'. I haven't seen you debunk any claim of mine yet and I'm open to it generally if you can convince me logically, but random numbers isn't going to change my mind I'm not a robot.

Our team is trying it's best, and doing well. However, I don't think going out of semi-finals is cool longterm. I don't think we play amazing football and play out from the back very well or that our defence inspire confidence and trust going forward. We want to play a high line but succeed very rarely, why? We need to develop yes, but it's totally appropriate to notice that Lindelof doesn't have the ceiling of talent we're looking for in a first teamer. Even if you do like him, he is dispensable, you have to admit that.

1. He is, like everybody else, dispensable. But it’s still weird to not acknowledge that he has been part of the performances behind our position in the league.
2. I never said he was VvD version 2. Quite the opposite if you read. You jumped in to a discussion and still don’t understand what was discussed. It was you who started comparisons. We discussed different styles of defending, not who is the best.
3. I understand that stats aren’t for everybody. I’m not saying that in a condescending way. I use statistical tools in my every day profession and am use to back up most of my statements with stats. I don’t think football need to be that and a gut feeling is fine. But stats are still valuable to understand our weaknesses as example. With stats you can see that Lindelof /Maguire concede very few goals in open play but a lot around corners. We can all have a gut feelings about things, but if we look at the stats we can see it’s not always true.
4. I’m not sure our goal is to play a very high line. Personally I don’t think Maguire is suitable for that, and he should definitely not be partnered with someone who also likes to attack high up. Better to have someone who always cover for him. I also don’t think our midfielder are perfect for that tbh.
5. It is still strange that you believe he is so poor. Would be interesting hear your view on the fact that he has got good ratings by football analysts in newspapers for most of the season. Why, if he is so poor?

 

[Mibabalou]

Very very big game for him today - I think if he plays well it will be massive for the fans / Ole. If he is bullied and plays poorly I fear it could be beginning of the end.

 

[Majima]

I'm not worried about the Lindelöf selection at all. His calmness and passing ability will be much needed. He's been preparing all week for this match, i expect him to play very well today.

 

[A-man]

If he’s fit and still on the form he was before the injury took him off, it’s the right decision imo. Anyway, I think it’ll do both him and Bailly good to alternate to avoid fitness problem.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

God forbid he makes a mistake today. The caf will have a meltdown.

 

[Based Adnan]

Class game, MOTM

 

[BenitoSTARR]

He was excellent today.

 

[Nick7]

Fair play. He was outstanding.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Quality performance.

 

[Litch]

Great today...

 

[Raven]

Predictably very good.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Lindelof was brilliant there after people questioning his selection. He’s been fine this season.

 

[slored1]

Very good. I was scared that we'd get caught on the counter but he did his job extremely well.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Amazing today

 

[Man-United]

Super game.

 

[ReallyUSA]

Lindelof was brilliant there after people questioning his selection. He’s been fine this season.

Did really, really good. Hste off

 

[Prodigy24]

Our best player today followed by Shaw. Brilliant game.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thoroughly justified the decision to play him.

 

[jem]

Excellent performance. I was worried but thought he was great.

 

[acnumber9]

Played really well. Put the moaners to shame.

 

[Devil77]

Superb game from Victor. Didn’t put a foot wrong tonight. Glad he proved Ole right with the team selection.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Absolutely phenomenal. My MOTM, although Shaw was excellent, too.

 

[11101]

Great game. Said all week he was the better choice and he showed why. We needed that composure, dont know why everybody wanted Bailly. Not the game for him.

 

[Maagge]

Great game after people shat the bed following him being in the starting XI.