I thought in the heat of the game he didn’t do enough there, but yeah, looking at the video now he does everything right.
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Yeah, nothing wrong with preferring a different kind of defender. Petty criticisms of him, often regarding situations in which he didn't put a foot wrong, are basically the norm from a selection of posters on here, though.
I agree, I don't think this was him being passive. But it's an example of the kind of situation where that accusation will be leveled at him. I don't know if it's because the critics genuinely think going for the tackle is the better option, or if they're just accustomed to complaining about him being too passive, but it keeps happening.
He is neutralising him and giving more or less all our players time to get back in to shape .
But let’s not shift focus here. Nobody would have complained if you thought he could have done better in that situation. But you use this situation to tell us how bad you think Lindelof is.
If this is Lindelof when he is at his worst, we have a CB with an extremely high lowest level.
I literally said 'or the touchline', which supports exactly what I posted earlier:"Once the player came into our half, it was there to be won or for Lindelof to get touch tight and force him to check his run and go backwards".
Besides it's not a literal either or situation. The point is that, if he's going to 'delay the attacker' or 'control' the situation then he should forced them with little chance of advancing further or stop him in their tracks and actually delay the situation by forcing them to play another pass. Back peddling all the way onto the edge of our own penalty box, sticking a foot out to make a simple block is not elite or proactive.
When it comes to CBs or goal keepers, who often are the last man, I see nothing wrong with a low risk choice.
The feck are those videos?
What did he even do wrong? haha
What did he even do wrong? haha
He's not neutralising anything though because he didn't stop the player from advancing 30 yards or from making an inside pass. He was patient and tracked the run but that was it. There was no effective outcome. Giving our players time to get back into shape can also be interpretated as he wasn't good enough to handle the situation himself. That's not a 'neutral' engagement; in his case it was literally steps going backwards.
As for the bolded, I can agree with your opinion to an extent but I would also add, at his best, he has a low level high.
Except he was not the 'last man' in those situations and as I've mentioned many times, he has problems in the channel by selecting a low risk choice, which often doesn't give us a good foundation.
1) He's too far behind AWB as he doesn't like to come out to the channels, which in turn means we have more gaps 2) There is less opportunity to shut down the attack on the half way line and it forces our team to drop back more than we really should be 3) He doesn't commit to an effective tackle/block/pressure and enables the player to pretty much do what they want.
I've used the analogy many times but he treats 1-on-1 situations like he's dealing with Messi regardless of the actual player. He can and should impose himself more.
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That's very honest of you!
Ask @criticalanalysis. He seems to be the only person on the forum to find fault.
So, he should have immediately tried to impede the progress of the Roma player & potentially get passed by while already being out of position himself, causing both Maguire & Shaw to have to shift their positioning in response to the free attacker, further exposing our left flank & the middle of the pitch?
Got it.
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To be fair, on the goal conceded tonight there was a catalogue of errors, I think Lindelof actually did his job the best out of everyone involved in it. The fact no one was there to clean up the loose ball was a bigger concern for me, Pogba and McTominay were slow to react and then Maguire fell asleep and their attackers were played onside. Just poor defending all round really.
If Lindelof had missed a tackle in that situation there would have been a small chance that Maguire could have cover for him. Now instead he stalled the player and that resulted in that we were six players back in to defence. The guy that Lindelof followed eventually had to make a pass backwards to a guy who made a pass to a guy who made a pass to a guy who made a pass to a guy.
The situation should have been safe. That’s probably why AWB was jogging casually out of view.
Why do people always go with extremes to defend a lack of action?
So putting more pressure on the player with the ball or stopping them from advancing 30 yards can be only result in one decisive option and that's making a tackle and possible missing it.
Getting touch tight, using his body, going shoulder to shoulder, enticing them to go down the line/corner flag, making an inteception are not other viable options now? It's like a defender is incapable of stopping a player in a 1-vs-1 situations without it possibly causing some detrimental, catastrophic effect and that the only 'safe' and 'intelligent' option is to back peddle 30 yards, shepherding the player and dragging your team mates back deep into your own half.
We need to stop defending mediocrity and treating whenever an opposition player enters our half like Messi is coming at you ffs.
No, actually we need to start assessing our players fairly and positively. We’re here to back them and discuss them. I thought you were too, but from these posts I see you just want to take him down as if he was an enemy.
I think over the years he’s been quietly improving all the time. Calm player, Lovely pass on him. Not aggressive enough for my taste but he’s an effective player.
Whilst my criticisms may be harsh, they are based on 'objective' points as much as subjective thoughts.
I don't hide that I don't rate Lindelof particularly and I have come around to accepting and believe he can do a job (sometimes good and even great on occasions) but I try to post with good reasoning. The three examples I've mentioned Sevilla, Burnley and in this game show Lindelof just isn't strong enough in the 1 vs 1 channel situations.
I like to believe I give equal benefit of the doubt and am critical of every player in the squad. I obviously like some more than others (which is based more on preference of ability/style rather than actual liking the person) but I will never blindly post overwhemlingly positive views or gloss over inadequacies with 'he did his job'.
I really like Fred and think he does an underrated job. I was glad someone made a comprehensive statistical post the other month about how his passing is more expansive and effective than the negative posts try to paint but it's also undeniable that we should expect more from him in terms of consistency on the ball. I hate the type of posts like 'he does his job protecting the back four and he isn't helped when the attackers are crap', which absolve him of being critiqued and that we should have less expectation for improvement. That epitomises what I feel about Lindelof and the belief that 'delaying', 'containment' and preferring to defer rather than engage is high level. It's not.
If Lindelof was dominant aerially, presses well high up the pitch or an elite ball carrier or passer, I could overlook the details of him not being particularly decisive from stopping an attacker travel to edge of our box. The issue is that he isn't so there's little leeway. 'Lindelof did the job in front of him' should not be taken as praise.
I hear he cycles backwards on a bike
in all seriousness, I can’t think of another top level defender that does so much backtracking.
in all seriousness, I can’t think of another top level defender that does so much backtracking.
Eh, whatever he's doing it seems to be working allright, so he's okay by me. Might need an upgrade somewhere down the line, but that's a worry for a time when it's our defending that's holding us back.
He buys himself time till others get back to help. Yes it does work, it’s just weird. Like i say I can’t think of another who does the same
Defenders, especially `CBs should not be trying to do last ditch sliding tackles. Lindelof did what he was expected to do. That is not commit himself and let the attacker turn back and pass it away from goal side off him. They scored because Maguire, Shaw, McTominay fecked it up. How on Earth did Mikhi get pass all those players?
I think the word 'agenda' is thrown around here way too often when someone doesn't like or agree with a contrasting opinion. But in the case of Lindelof, I genuinely think some have some weird agenda/bias against him. No matter what he does or how well he plays, some will refuse to praise him and/or praise Magiure for 'making him look good'. It's all very odd.
This.
Some people (@golden_blunder for example) just hate Lindelof, unrealistically. Many posts on Lindelof do not have any logic.
If you look I have praised him when I think he has done well.
but the bottom line is I think he lacks some basics of a top level cb. I don’t think he’s of the right standard and certainly is somewhere we can upgrade when financials allow it
I think many people have come to accept that level as ok or better, yet these are the same people who watched Vida, Rio, Stam, Pallister etc. He’s just not the same standard
Other than VVD and maybe Ramos (with his all-round level of performance), there isn't anybody in the world of that standard. It's a bit unfair to have unrealistic expectations on him.
Lindelof can be upgraded, but it's not as easy as some make out. The same could be said for Maguire to be honest.
Yeah but I have less stress around maguire because he can do the basics.
I’m not saying it’s easy, I just think we have all accepted a much lower level. Which probably explains where we are.
I suggested Dias at the time we were signing Lindelof and look where we are, still not quite there whereas Dias has looked like he’s played at city his whole life, in his first season.
We will never know if it had been the same at United but there is options out there when we have the money to upgrade
When you have the best coach in the world then obviously it's going to be different. Lindelof had to start at United under Jose who doesn't have any tolerance and at least Ole has shown that he trusts him unlike Jose and hasn't thrown him under the bus.
If you pick the all time best player in a position we will always, per definition, have to accept a lower level. None of the attacking players are as good as Ronaldo but there are still some value in keeping Bruno and Rashford.
Dias might have been good at United even though I think City suits him better. I also think Lindelof would have been good at City.
I genuinely believe he just needs to go back to his skin head days and stop looking so handsome and more of a hard bastard and will then be rated higher.
Obviously I know that, but there is much better out there than just accepting something as ok
Then we watch him backing off and getting cover powered and we know it’s a scam. As do other teamsI genuinely believe he just needs to go back to his skin head days and stop looking so handsome and more of a hard bastard and will then be rated higher.
I didn’t mean to “explain” that to you, but it’s an observation that when it comes to the CBs, a lot of people seems to demand the best in the world because Rio had that level in his time. Anything else is accepting the average. We don’t demand that for other positions.
In my opinion you get away with mistakes more in other positions. In defence you make a mistake it leads to a chance or a goal.
Absolutely. Even if missing a sitter cost the same as a stupid conceded goal, it feels worse.
If we have a good midfield then our CBs at this level is acceptable. We get turned over easily because none of our forwards have good ball control and keep possession, nor are they good in passing. Our midfield and full backs are worse. So it's obvious that our CBs are under pressure always by having not only to deal with the opposition forwards but also their attacking midfield.
What is the option for our CBs? Delay the opposition forwards or go in for a tackle and risk the option of getting beaten? The only option is delaying and hope other players can get back into position. We never see AWB sprint back to defend. We see even Bruno and Rashford sprint back to defend.
That pass Mikhi made should never have been allowed. There were three United players around him and they let him make that pass.
What is the option for our CBs? Delay the opposition forwards or go in for a tackle and risk the option of getting beaten? The only option is delaying and hope other players can get back into position. We never see AWB sprint back to defend. We see even Bruno and Rashford sprint back to defend.
That pass Mikhi made should never have been allowed. There were three United players around him and they let him make that pass.
They're doing a shite job of capitalizing on it then.
Sorry I just read my post back, damn typo
I mean you don’t get away with mistakes in defence (or as many really). It sticks with you. “Target that guy he’s weak on the left” or “throw it long and high they are poor in the air”. That comes from the defence.
Yea that’s absolutely true. However to play to the opponents’ weaknesses is also how it works all over the pitch, but maybe to a lower degree.
The only thing I’ve seen opponent target us with are high balls against Lindelof and AWB, but I can’t say it has been succesful. Then of course occasional strong but non technical forwards try to use the strength in their favour but they always do. I haven’t seen any explore our supposed lack of speed at the back. Or at least not in a succesful way. Some teams have tried to isolate Maguire as he is weak 1v1 but don’t remember us conceding much from that.
He has been much better in the second half of the season, more confident and assured, can be seen even in his passing game where he has been actively looking for aggressive passes over the safe option. Would still prefer a little more proactive defensive work, yes it might not be his natural game but attackers are often too comfortable when isolated against him.
However, can't ignore the defensive improvement after the poor start.
However, can't ignore the defensive improvement after the poor start.
To me it looks very bizarre. Some complain about his lack of pace and then also complain that he back peddles. But when he back peddles he is also keeping himself goal side always. That means the opponent is going less speed than him, so it gives time for our defence to get back in place. I would rather any of our players back peddles and gives time for the defence to get back rather than go in for a tackle and get beaten and then either he has to pull the attacker down or let him have a free run on our goal.
Have to give him credit for the long balls. He does them better than Maguire, whom I thought would specialize in them when he joined.
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