[Paul the Wolf]

That’s a very weird comment. We haven’t won any trophies with almost any player in this team, are all useless?

Maguire and Lindelof were the main CB pair two years ago when we finished second in the league (and went to the EL final). We conceded 44 goals and scored 73. Since then we’ve added Varane, Casemiro, Martinez, Sancho, Antony, Eriksen, Ronaldo, and more. Investments worth 100s of millions. Still, I am not convinced we will finish so much better this season. I am not even 100% sure we will concede less than 44 goals. But we’ll see, maybe I’m wrong and we finish this season with a couple of trophies.

If Maguire and Lindelof aren't our centre back combination we'll win a trophy. When we finished second it was an odd season with Covid, we didn't lose away in the league. Maybe he's scared of the crowd. Still 44 goals is not exactly a tight defence.
Most of those named have just come in.

This season he's played against Real Sociedad, we lost. He's come on against City. We conceded six. Varane was off the field for the second and injured for the 3rd; Lindelof comes on and we looked even worse.
He plays against Omonia and conceded two including giving away the second Omonia goal. Against Everton they showed no attacking threat except for the last few minutes when EtH sent on Varane who cleared away most of the danger.

I have absolutely no idea why you can't see that he's not good enough, not even as a back-up.

 

[edcunited1878]

If Maguire and Lindelof aren't our centre back combination we'll win a trophy. When we finished second it was an odd season with Covid, we didn't lose away in the league. Maybe he's scared of the crowd. Still 44 goals is not exactly a tight defence.
Most of those named have just come in.

This season he's played against Real Sociedad, we lost. He's come on against City. We conceded six. Varane was off the field for the second and injured for the 3rd; Lindelof comes on and we looked even worse.
He plays against Omonia and conceded two including giving away the second Omonia goal. Against Everton they showed no attacking threat except for the last few minutes when EtH sent on Varane who cleared away most of the danger.

I have absolutely no idea why you can't see that he's not good enough, not even as a back-up.

Name all the other back up CBs across the top 5 teams. They would be in the same predicament as Lindelof.

City has Dias and Stones as first choice. You can say Laporte is first choice over Stones, then Ake.

Arsenal have Holding as a the main backup and Gabriel starting with Saliba.

Spurs best w CBs are Dier and Romero, but use a 3rd CB like Davies. Lenglet and Sanchez are average and no better than Lindelof.

Chelsea also have 3 CBs start and they have a viable backup such as Chalobah or a veteran like Azpli. And that is after buying Fofana and Koulibaliy for big bucks the past summer.

He's a backup player at best for a team trying to win trophies at the highest level.

 

[golden_blunder]

Name all the other back up CBs across the top 5 teams. They would be in the same predicament as Lindelof.

City has Dias and Stones as first choice. You can say Laporte is first choice over Stones, then Ake.

Arsenal have Holding as a the main backup and Gabriel starting with Saliba.

Spurs best w CBs are Dier and Romero, but use a 3rd CB like Davies. Lenglet and Sanchez are average and no better than Lindelof.

Chelsea also have 3 CBs start and they have a viable backup such as Chalobah or a veteran like Azpli. And that is after buying Fofana and Koulibaliy for big bucks the past summer.

He's a backup player at best for a team trying to win trophies at the highest level.

I’d argue that they are, they can both head and are not afraid of physical challenges

city’s cover is better, spurs cover is better, Chelsea’s cover is better.

arsenal no as I think holding is rubbish

ETH has spoken about having a better squad and I’m sure that laurel & hardy will be on the replace list

 

[andersj]

I’d argue that they are, they can both head and are not afraid of physical challenges

city’s cover is better, spurs cover is better, Chelsea’s cover is better.

arsenal no as I think holding is rubbish

ETH has spoken about having a better squad and I’m sure that laurel & hardy will be on the replace list

Did not you have a similar stance on Dalot? «Way too poor»? Might it be a bit down to preference for type of player?

Dalots biggest asset is in the build-up and transition. I think it is the same with Lindelof, and I would not be surprised at all if EtH actually prefered him over Varane (and Maguire). There is not much between Maguire (in form) and Lindelof on the ball. But both Lindelof and Maguire is a lot better in the build-up than Varane. And I think that will be important to EtH.

 

[golden_blunder]

Did not you have a similar stance on Dalot? «Way too poor»? Might it be a bit down to preference for type of player?

Dalots biggest asset is in the build-up and transition. I think it is the same with Lindelof, and I would not be surprised at all if EtH actually prefered him over Varane (and Maguire). There is not much between Maguire (in form) and Lindelof on the ball. But both Lindelof and Maguire is a lot better in the build-up than Varane. And I think that will be important to EtH.

Possibly correct but where it breaks down for me is Lindelof and maguires lack of courage in progressing the ball quickly. They both have a tendency to play it back or sideways, sometimes dropping their colleagues in trouble. They need to stop that shit before I’d agree with your post

 

[andersj]

Possibly correct but where it breaks down for me is Lindelof and maguires lack of courage in progressing the ball quickly. They both have a tendency to play it back or sideways, sometimes dropping their colleagues in trouble. They need to stop that shit before I’d agree with your post

Not compared to Varane. Varane this season in the PL has, on average with every pass, moved the ball 5,29 yards forward with a completion rate of 86 %. Lindelof in his two games (51 min against City and away against Everton) has moved the ball 6,02 yards forward on average with every pass with a completion rate of 95,4 %.

It actually looks even more obvious looking at their total numbers. In 151 minutes, Lindelof moved the ball 627 yards forward. In
445 minutes Varane moved the ball 847 yards forward.

In summary, Lindelof moves the ball further forward, completes more passed in the final third and has a significantly higher completion rate than Varane.

(Obviously, it is a small sample size, but it looks like the same case last year.)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not compared to Varane. Varane this season in the PL has, on average with every pass, moved the ball 5,29 yards forward with a completion rate of 86 %. Lindelof in his two games (51 min against City and away against Everton) has moved the ball 6,02 yards forward on average with every pass with a completion rate of 95,4 %.

It actually looks even more obvious looking at their total numbers. In 151 minutes, Lindelof moved the ball 627 yards forward. In
445 minutes Varane moved the ball 847 yards forward.

In summary, Lindelof moves the ball further forward, completes more passed in the final third and has a significantly higher completion rate than Varane.

(Obviously, it is a small sample size, but it looks like the same case last year.)

Just a bit! Obviously relevant that Varane played the full 90 vs Liverpool and Arsenal, when we were under the cosh for most of the game. So we can basically ignore total numbers.

The differences on the average per pass are the most accurate way to compare and the difference is so small it’s basically meaningless.

 

[andersj]

Just a bit! Obviously relevant that Varane played the full 90 vs Liverpool and Arsenal, when we were under the cosh for most of the game. So we can basically ignore total numbers.

The differences on the average per pass are the most accurate way to compare and the difference is so small it’s basically meaningless.

14 % and a way higher completion rate. And while Varane played a few tough games, Lindelof played away to Man City and Everton.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

14 % and a way higher completion rate. And while Varane played a few tough games, Lindelof played away to Man City and Everton.

Varane also played against City.

I’m coming at this as someone who rates Lindelof. When he’s playing well he’s an excellent, aggressive ball-playing CB. A bit like a right footed Martinez.

Consistency has been an issue for him though. And there’s no way those stats you’ve shared tell us anything useful about him vs Varane.

 

[andersj]

Varane also played against City.

I’m coming at this as someone who rates Lindelof. When he’s playing well he’s an excellent, aggressive ball-playing CB. A bit like a right footed Martinez.

Consistency has been an issue for him though. And there’s no way those stats you’ve shared tell us anything useful about him vs Varane.

Yes, but the share of minutes for Lindelof against Man City out of the total is really high. You came into the discussion pointing out that Varane had playee against LFC and Arsenal. A relevant point, but not that relevant considering 30-40 percent of Lindelofs minutes came against City away. Furthermore, Goodison is no walk in the park either.

I fully agree that the population are too small. I even noted that in my first post.

My subjective opinion is still that Lindelof is a better passer of the ball than Varane. And while I do expect Varanes numbers too improve, I still expect Lindelofs number to be better than Varane over a season. And I would not be surprised at all if EtH prefer Lindelof over Varane due to a higher potential on the ball.

Oh, and while the sample size is still small and makes it a bit irrelevant, the difference if you compare Varanes numbers in the games against Brentford, Leicester and Southampton to Lindelof against Everton is striking.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Play Lindelof with Varane?

 

[Teja]

My subjective opinion is still that Lindelof is a better passer of the ball than Varane. And while I do expect Varanes numbers too improve, I still expect Lindelofs number to be better than Varane over a season. And I would not be surprised at all if EtH prefer Lindelof over Varane due to a higher potential on the ball.

I called this one out when Varane was first starting this season. His default seems to be carry the ball forwards and play it back to DDG when there's even a tiny amount of pressure towards him. He wasn't taking any risks at all.

Maybe it's intentional and as our patterns develop more Varane will take risks and pass forwards but as of now Lindelof is a much better passer.

 

[Varane around town]

I'm a fan of Lindelof.

Are you going to be competing for the top trophies if Lindelof is playing 50+ games for you? Nope.

However, he's the perfect 3rd choice for us. Very reliable, nearly always available and I think he complements Varane and Martinez much better than Maguire.

 

[golden_blunder]

Not compared to Varane. Varane this season in the PL has, on average with every pass, moved the ball 5,29 yards forward with a completion rate of 86 %. Lindelof in his two games (51 min against City and away against Everton) has moved the ball 6,02 yards forward on average with every pass with a completion rate of 95,4 %.

It actually looks even more obvious looking at their total numbers. In 151 minutes, Lindelof moved the ball 627 yards forward. In
445 minutes Varane moved the ball 847 yards forward.

In summary, Lindelof moves the ball further forward, completes more passed in the final third and has a significantly higher completion rate than Varane.

(Obviously, it is a small sample size, but it looks like the same case last year.)

Only problem is that Varane is twice the defender Lindelof is

 

[golden_blunder]

Play Lindelof with Varane?

Are you mad?

 

[golden_blunder]

Im definitely going to specsavers on Sunday

 

[andersj]

Only problem is that Varane is twice the defender Lindelof is

Maybe he was when he was way more agile. Still better, but not that big of a difference anymore.

Furthermore, I think the added value of being good on the ball is higher. Even for a defender. Partly due to a player being more exposed to being on the ball than having to be a good defender. Even more so under EtH.

And partly due to the sample space being greater on the ball. As a defender, you either succeed or fail (a bit simplified). But on the ball, the sample space with all the options you have is huge. Fletcher was decent in the build up, Carrick was great, but Scholes was world class. They would all make different choices in build up and transition. Man Utd looked way different with Scholes in the team for years.

And finally, off the ball, the way you organize as a team can compensate for lack of individual quality.

I think Lindelof have a fair chance of becoming first choice next to Martinez.

 

[golden_blunder]

Maybe he was when he was way more agile. Still better, but not that big of a difference anymore.

Furthermore, I think the added value of being good on the ball is higher. Even for a defender. Partly due to a player being more exposed to being on the ball than having to be a good defender. Even more so under EtH.

And partly due to the sample space being greater on the ball. As a defender, you either succeed or fail (a bit simplified). But on the ball, the sample space with all the options you have is huge. Fletcher was decent in the build up, Carrick was great, but Scholes was world class. They would all make different choices in build up and transition. Man Utd looked way different with Scholes in the team for years.

And finally, off the ball, the way you organize as a team can compensate for lack of individual quality.

I think Lindelof have a fair chance of becoming first choice next to Martinez.

You’ve gone mad. Come back to me when he fecks up again, and he will

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You’ve gone mad. Come back to me when he fecks up again, and he will

Over five years of absolute garbage defending running away from the ball and the player. Are there other matches that are not shown in France in an alternative reality? It's got to be a wind up.
He is the worst defender we've ever had that's played on a regular basis for us and that's in 59 years of watching United - no question, not even close.

I now know why I put this thread on ignore and it's going back on ignore.
Just hope that either in the January window or next summer he's finally gone for good.
Lingard finally went after 8 years, this tosser must leave asap.

 

[A-man]

Not compared to Varane. Varane this season in the PL has, on average with every pass, moved the ball 5,29 yards forward with a completion rate of 86 %. Lindelof in his two games (51 min against City and away against Everton) has moved the ball 6,02 yards forward on average with every pass with a completion rate of 95,4 %.

It actually looks even more obvious looking at their total numbers. In 151 minutes, Lindelof moved the ball 627 yards forward. In
445 minutes Varane moved the ball 847 yards forward.

In summary, Lindelof moves the ball further forward, completes more passed in the final third and has a significantly higher completion rate than Varane.

(Obviously, it is a small sample size, but it looks like the same case last year.)

Agree Lindelof is better on the ball, but the metric you’ve chosen doesn’t work like that. Over a season, yes, it could maybe indicate something, but over such a few matches two 40 yards long balls could make the whole difference.

Anyways, it looked as we had better speed on the ball and played out better from the back against Everton compared to previous matches this season. I think playing Lindelof has a part of it, as well as Casemiro, but also because Everton were sitting back. Both CBs also managed press well most of the game.

 

[roonster09]

Maybe he was when he was way more agile. Still better, but not that big of a difference anymore.

There is a big difference, Varane is miles better and few levels above Lindelof.

 

[nakpodiareuben]

If Maguire and Lindelof aren't our centre back combination we'll win a trophy. When we finished second it was an odd season with Covid, we didn't lose away in the league. Maybe he's scared of the crowd. Still 44 goals is not exactly a tight defence.
Most of those named have just come in.

This season he's played against Real Sociedad, we lost. He's come on against City. We conceded six. Varane was off the field for the second and injured for the 3rd; Lindelof comes on and we looked even worse.
He plays against Omonia and conceded two including giving away the second Omonia goal. Against Everton they showed no attacking threat except for the last few minutes when EtH sent on Varane who cleared away most of the danger.

I have absolutely no idea why you can't see that he's not good enough, not even as a back-up.

I think Lindelof is so underrated. He has been an absolute professional since joining us. We all know his major weakness and it has to do with his body weight. He is aggressive and fast enough for a central defender. As good as Maguire is with the ball, he is better with the ball. Not playing consistently and seen as an option has affected his game with us. He has been carrying Maguire for 2 seasons now but we still see him as the bad one. He is the captain of Sweden by the way! Right now I am very sure he is ahead of Maguire in the pecking order. With him and Martinez this past matches, united possession and dominance increased tremendously. When you have the ball most of the time in the high up from your goal, the opposition have little chance of causing trouble. The ice man is born for ETH style

 

[nakpodiareuben]

Agree Lindelof is better on the ball, but the metric you’ve chosen doesn’t work like that. Over a season, yes, it could maybe indicate something, but over such a few matches two 40 yards long balls could make the whole difference.

Anyways, it looked as we had better speed on the ball and played out better from the back against Everton compared to previous matches this season. I think playing Lindelof has a part of it, as well as Casemiro, but also because Everton were sitting back. Both CBs also managed press well most of the game.

Everton sat back because our defence were in good positions to collect the ball and pass in between the line to the forward men. Lindelof made a lot of forays from defence. He does that most times.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Class player. Better than maguire. Very happy with him as third choice cb.

 

[nakpodiareuben]

Over five years of absolute garbage defending running away from the ball and the player. Are there other matches that are not shown in France in an alternative reality? It's got to be a wind up.
He is the worst defender we've ever had that's played on a regular basis for us and that's in 59 years of watching United - no question, not even close.

I now know why I put this thread on ignore and it's going back on ignore.
Just hope that either in the January window or next summer he's finally gone for good.
Lingard finally went after 8 years, this tosser must leave asap.

Worst than Rojo, Bailey, Maguire....... Let's give this guy some respect. He may not be dominating strikers but he plays for the badge

 

[nakpodiareuben]

I called this one out when Varane was first starting this season. His default seems to be carry the ball forwards and play it back to DDG when there's even a tiny amount of pressure towards him. He wasn't taking any risks at all.

Maybe it's intentional and as our patterns develop more Varane will take risks and pass forwards but as of now Lindelof is a much better passer.

Varane is not great at passing out the ball from the back. His strength is speed, reading the game, height and organisation. Victor and Martinez are masters of playing it out

 

[nakpodiareuben]

Name all the other back up CBs across the top 5 teams. They would be in the same predicament as Lindelof.

City has Dias and Stones as first choice. You can say Laporte is first choice over Stones, then Ake.

Arsenal have Holding as a the main backup and Gabriel starting with Saliba.

Spurs best w CBs are Dier and Romero, but use a 3rd CB like Davies. Lenglet and Sanchez are average and no better than Lindelof.

Chelsea also have 3 CBs start and they have a viable backup such as Chalobah or a veteran like Azpli. And that is after buying Fofana and Koulibaliy for big bucks the past summer.

He's a backup player at best for a team trying to win trophies at the highest level.

Lindelof will go most of these clubs mentioned and be a starter. We are underating this fella

 

[edcunited1878]

Lindelof will go most of these clubs mentioned and be a starter. We are underating this fella

He would be in the same position at those other clubs. He's not underrated, just underappreciated. Been a good professional and servant to the club so far.

 

[Marwood]

He would be a good 3rd choice CB if Martinez wasn't a first choice CB.

I'm not sure I fancy the two of them together. Especially with a keeper so fond of his line.

 

[Bwuk]

Sorry what am I reading?

Varane is absolutely miles ahead of Lindelof.

 

[Vidyoyo]

The oddest thing about all these takes is that somehow people have decided we should have a world class third choice centre back at the helm.

Reality is calling and it wants you to know what you've been up to.

 

[A-man]

There is a big difference, Varane is miles better and few levels above Lindelof.

Varane on form and fit to play is defensively a level above all our CBs, especially when we play the low defence we have seen until Everton. However he has not exactly been on form or fit that much since he joined us. Now he had 4 good games and then he faced city, where he didn’t play well and also got injured.

Then of course, further in to the future, our new manager might want more from the centre backs than just a good low defence, and he might need better ball handling than Varane can offer.

 

[roonster09]

Varane on form and fit to play is defensively a level above all our CBs, especially when we play the low defence we have seen until Everton. However he has not exactly been on form or fit that much since he joined us. Now he had 4 good games and then he faced city, where he didn’t play well and also got injured.

Then of course, further in to the future, our new manager might want more from the centre backs than just a good low defence, and he might need better ball handling than Varane can offer.

It's laughable to come up with "Varane is good low block defender", he is lot better than Lindelof in any system. Only thing Lindelof has over Varane is, long range passing that he plays 2-3 times a season. Lindelof himself hasn't proven anything in high line and for sure he hasn't proven to be a ball playing CB. If he had passing range of Pau Torres or passing ability like David Luiz then it would have been easy to overlook his poor defensive ability. He is decent to good passer of the ball and that's it. Apart from that, everything is average.

Good that our new manager might want more than good low defense, we have only 2 CBs who are capable of that and they are our first choice players. Martinez and Varane will be first choice CBs under any manager and any system. If the manager for some reason don't want to play either of them, then for sure they won't be playing Lindelof. Manager will go for better CB than Varane, Martinez, not a downgrade one.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Kept a clean sheet tonight against world class opposition

 

[pascell]

Hopefully he's sold next summer and replaced with someone that has the right qualities of a CB.

This guy is too slow, weak, horrendous in the air and his passing ability is average also.

 

[criticalanalysis]

@GifLord clip of Lindelof chasing shadows/their player Bruno down the left wing circa 41-42mins I think. Thanks.

It's laughable to come up with "Varane is good low block defender", he is lot better than Lindelof in any system. Only thing Lindelof has over Varane is, long range passing that he plays 2-3 times a season. Lindelof himself hasn't proven anything in high line and for sure he hasn't proven to be a ball playing CB. If he had passing range of Pau Torres or passing ability like David Luiz then it would have been easy to overlook his poor defensive ability. He is decent to good passer of the ball and that's it. Apart from that, everything is average.

Good that our new manager might want more than good low defense, we have only 2 CBs who are capable of that and they are our first choice players. Martinez and Varane will be first choice CBs under any manager and any system. If the manager for some reason don't want to play either of them, then for sure they won't be playing Lindelof. Manager will go for better CB than Varane, Martinez, not a downgrade one.

The clip I requested proves exactly your first point in bold. I'll need to see it again but the strange thing is, he wasn't even necessarily 'beaten' for pace as he could have potentially got across to pressure/slow the attacker down; the problem was Lindelof had no intensity to close the space and just gave him all the time to run forward. It's been 6 years of this.

It's incredible how people exponentially elevate a player's ability in their head and use it as a basis to say 'well in this scenario, they are a better player than xyz'. They actually believe Lindelof is like the Xavi of passing.

Tonight's game and that incident at 41-42min is exactly why any sane manager would not pick Lindelof over a fit Varane. Against Everton and against Omonia, where he has little defending to do and can pass with little pressure, he still came off with less involvement and actual game influence (defensively and passing) than Martinez. Somehow, people extrapolate this to 'well he's not made any mistakes defensively and can look pleasing on the ball, therefore, he's more of an asset to us than Varane'. Absolutely shameless and insane takes from the usual suspects

 

[golden_blunder]

I can’t believe so many are now defending him, he’s atrocious

 

[izec]

His loyal fans are back again. He will never be good enough, no basic defending skills.

 

[Volumiza]

I can’t believe so many are now defending him, he’s atrocious

He didn’t have a great game but he wasn’t terrible either. Ok cover for Varane while he’s out.

He moves like he needs WD-40ing all over. Like a rusty gate.

 

[golden_blunder]

He didn’t have a great game but he wasn’t terrible either. Ok cover for Varane while he’s out.

He moves like he needs WD-40ing all over. Like a rusty gate.

He moves like shaggy from scooby do.