Villa (a), Newcastle (h) and Tottenham (h)

[Rich_H_1989]

7 points from the first 3 games could be considered a good return... But when you consider that's two home games against Spurs and Newcastle and an away game against Villa who are rebuilding I don't think it's exceptional. It's decent, it's steady but the performances haven't been good.

Our next two games are huge though! Swansea and Liverpool are really tough games. The way Swansea have started and the fact they will have confidence from beating us twice last season and their early season form makes it a tricky game.

We could conceivably have 13 points from 15 if we win the next two! And if we do then we have to give LVG credit for that. To have beaten Spurs, Swansea and Liverpool would be a very good start.

But... We could quite easily pick up 1/2 points in the next 2 games and suddenly 9 from 15 isn't so great.

For me I'm happy with the points return so far. If you'd have told me 7 points from those 3 games I'd have been happy. Especially with 3 clean sheets. But if you'd have told me we'd have only scored twice (one an own goal) then that's much less impressive. And the fact that we've managed what 8-10 shots on target in 3 games? Two of which were home games?

 

[Roboc7]

In terms of points it has been a good start but we look very poor and one paced in the final third and are set up to be cautious which improves us defensively but makes it even harder going forward.

Also worth remembering that none of the three teams we have played have won a game yet and as good as our defenders have been they won't get many easier games all season.

 

[Red-Jeff]

 

[Red-Jeff]

7 points from the first 3 games could be considered a good return... But when you consider that's two home games against Spurs and Newcastle and an away game against Villa who are rebuilding I don't think it's exceptional. It's decent, it's steady but the performances haven't been good.

Our next two games are huge though! Swansea and Liverpool are really tough games. The way Swansea have started and the fact they will have confidence from beating us twice last season and their early season form makes it a tricky game.

We could conceivably have 13 points from 15 if we win the next two! And if we do then we have to give LVG credit for that. To have beaten Spurs, Swansea and Liverpool would be a very good start.

But... We could quite easily pick up 1/2 points in the next 2 games and suddenly 9 from 15 isn't so great.

For me I'm happy with the points return so far. If you'd have told me 7 points from those 3 games I'd have been happy. Especially with 3 clean sheets. But if you'd have told me we'd have only scored twice (one an own goal) then that's much less impressive. And the fact that we've managed what 8-10 shots on target in 3 games? Two of which were home games?

That distinction is superfluous, pretty sure Rooney would have finished that one had the defender not put it in (correct me if I'm wrong). Granted our finishing does need to be better but to minimize the attacking play in that instance because of an own goal is incorrect in my view. It was stuck into the net by the defender because it was an extremely dangerous chance that we created.

 

[Rich_H_1989]

That distinction is superfluous, pretty sure Rooney would have finished that one had the defender not put it in (correct me if I'm wrong). Granted our finishing does need to be better but to minimize the attacking play in that instance because of an own goal is incorrect in my view. It was stuck into the net by the defender because it was an extremely dangerous chance that we created.

OK... I'm not sure Rooney on current form would have put it away only kidding.

Yes it was a well created chance I will say that but they have been few and far between and that's a real concern.

 

[Red-Jeff]

OK... I'm not sure Rooney on current form would have put it away only kidding.

Yes it was a well created chance I will say that but they have been few and far between and that's a real concern.

The way his first touch has been...

I think that is a legitimate criticism of the first two games but the games against Brugge and Newcastle had plenty of chances. The worry for me is the ability to put those chances away but I do think that will improve, I am not a huge Rooney fan but this form will not last. He is a class player and he will score a decent number of goals if played as our #9 all season. Obviously he is not top level with the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Mueller, etc... But if Depay and Mata kick on I think we will have enough goals in our team when you take into account how solid our defense and midfield are. Just doesn't look like a world-class goal-scoring player is on the cards this year so we will have to make do with what we have. That may be enough for a title challenge depending upon form and injuries (ours and our opponents) but even if it isn't we are definitely improved from last year and on the right track.

 

[steve zizou]

Meaning that you can't rely on players scoring wonder goals every week and good attacking teams create more clear goalscoring opportunities than we currently do

Fellaini would have been great yesterday - his ariel ability makes up for our lack of cutting edge at times it seems -

You have misunderstood my post

Well that's fair enough. Memphis' goals were very good but it's not anything we haven't seen any good player score before.
Also I believe yours, and a few others in this thread's views on chances are misguided. Chances are by definition a moment or opportunity to score a goal. Thus, a free-kick from 30 yrd from goal IS a chance; likewise, a corner kick etc. Some chances are harder to convert than others. A clear cut chance (i.e 1v1, Penalty kick) are the easiest to convert but are also relatively rare.

 

[Getsme]

It's really baffling, I don't know if it's down to building mega teams on FIFA or FM or if the information age is responsible for the proliferation of an "I want it now" mentality. A successful endeavor is a long process with lots of hard-work and *gasp-horror* failures that you build upon, not some instant gratification bullshit that you just throw together over a single season.

Spot on.

 

[Insanity]

It's really baffling, I don't know if it's down to building mega teams on FIFA or FM or if the information age is responsible for the proliferation of an "I want it now" mentality. A successful endeavor is a long process with lots of hard-work and *gasp-horror* failures that you build upon, not some instant gratification bullshit that you just throw together over a single season.

You must hate the club and our transfer policy as we have spent close to 300m pounds and bought 13 players since Fergie's retirement 2 seasons ago. Seems like not enough credence has been given to the long process of forming a successful endeavor, instead we seem to be in an instant gratification mode.

VG keeps talking like a muppet on the need for a "specia player", which must grind your gears too.

 

[Rednotdead]

Do wonder goals and Fellaini headers not count? Here's @Rednotdead arguing that goals are all that matter in attacking football; meanwhile, you are also saying that the goals don't count.

Between the 2 of you, can you describe to me what type goals are of an acceptable standard for Man Utd.?

For me, any goals. I've never said anything different.

Haven't we laughed at Arsenal for years because they've consistently played great football but failed to get the results that win you the big prizes? And how do you get those results? You score goals of course. Great attacking football goes for nothing if it doesn't lead to goals. That's the point I've been making all along in this discussion. We've scored one goal in 3 league games (discounting the Spurs OG). Platitudes like "with more luck" and "on another day" have no relevance. Title winners don't need those excuses, they're for also-rans.

People can drool over our attacking play as much as they want, if we don't score the goals it goes for absolutely nothing.

 

[Rednotdead]

You must hate the club and our transfer policy as we have spent close to 300m pounds and bought 13 players since Fergie's retirement 2 seasons ago. Seems like not enough credence has been given to the long process of forming a successful endeavor, instead we seem to be in an instant gratification mode.

VG keeps talking like a muppet on the need for a "specia player", which must grind your gears too.

The top clubs in any league don't get years to rebuild. Can you imagine the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern taking years to rebuild a squad? Of course not, if you take years you lose your place at the top table.

Employing "a long process" to rebuild is for lower level teams, those who can't afford to just go out and buy the players they need.

 

[Insanity]

The top clubs in any league don't get years to rebuild. Can you imagine the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern taking years to rebuild a squad? Of course not, if you take years you lose your place at the top table.

Employing "a long process" to rebuild is for lower level teams, those who can't afford to just go out and buy the players they need.

Yup. Some are making it as if we were some recently promoted team. Despite the blip under Moyes, we were still a squad good enough to finish top 4 under a good manager.

And if we continue buying players and discarding them a season later, then we'll be in perpetual transition. The "process" will only become longer.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The top clubs in any league don't get years to rebuild. Can you imagine the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern taking years to rebuild a squad? Of course not, if you take years you lose your place at the top table.

Employing "a long process" to rebuild is for lower level teams, those who can't afford to just go out and buy the players they need.

Can you imagine Madrid's entire team collapsing after their manager of 26 years leaves? Me neither, and if it were to happen and if it was handled as poorly as we handled it, they'd take time too to recover too.

 

[Getsme]

The top clubs in any league don't get years to rebuild. Can you imagine the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern taking years to rebuild a squad? Of course not, if you take years you lose your place at the top table.

Employing "a long process" to rebuild is for lower level teams, those who can't afford to just go out and buy the players they need.

For all the money Real Madrid have spent they have won very little, Bayern are the only real big club in Germany therefore they are always favourite for the title and have their pick of players in the Bundesliga, Barcelona are the exception to the rule but they have arguably the best player in the World to help them through their tough periods, not to mention all their other youth team players through the years. There will come a time when they have to rebuild like us.

That's not even take by into consideration the redevelopment our club has went through, best ever manager leaves along with the most experienced players, but yeah, we should rebuild in one season.

 

[Getsme]

Yup. Some are making it as if we were some recently promoted team. Despite the blip under Moyes, we were still a squad good enough to finish top 4 under a good manager.

And if we continue buying players and discarding them a season later, then we'll be in perpetual transition. The "process" will only become longer.

Two players we discarded, one was a loan and the other had no balls. Talk about overstating.

 

[Insanity]

Two players we discarded, one was a loan and the other had no balls. Talk about overstating.

3, Herrera is in the dog house. The "no balls" left because he didn't want to waste primary years of his career fitting in some stupid philosophy/process.

Of the other 3, one if being shoe-horned into a new position because he always plays, for another one of the three, who is not good enough.

 

[Getsme]

3, Herrera is in the dog house. The "no balls" left because he didn't want to waste primary years of his career fitting in some stupid philosophy/process.

Of the other 3, one if being show-horned into a new position because he always plays, for another one of the three, who is not good enough.

Herrera is still at the club, as are the other players you didn't mention.

 

[Insanity]

Herrera is still at the club, as are the other players you didn't mention.

Ya, he can't find a game because he doesn't fit into the new "system" in any position.

Who didn't I mention? We only bought 6 players last season; two left, one is a back-up to one who always plays and another one is Herrera,and only two are starting.

 

[Rednotdead]

For all the money Real Madrid have spent they have won very little, Bayern are the only real big club in Germany therefore they are always favourite for the title and have their pick of players in the Bundesliga, Barcelona are the exception to the rule but they have arguably the best player in the World to help them through their tough periods, not to mention all their other youth team players through the years. There will come a time when they have to rebuild like us.

That's not even take by into consideration the redevelopment our club has went through, best ever manager leaves along with the most experienced players, but yeah, we should rebuild in one season.

Please don't put words in my mouth just to make your point, I've never said we should have rebuilt in one season. We're into the second season now.

Throwing the question back at you, how long then do you think this rebuilding should take?

 

[Getsme]

Please don't put words in my mouth just to make your point, I've never said we should have rebuilt in one season. We're into the second season now.

Throwing the question back at you, how long then do you think this rebuilding should take?

We are three games into his second season FFS.
Fergie usually took three season to rebuild, that's the bench mark, only Fergie never had to rebuild like LVG has.

 

[Getsme]

Ya, he can't find a game because he doesn't fit into the new "system" in any position.

Who didn't I mention? We only bought 6 players last season; two left, one is a back-up to one who always plays and another one is Herrera,and only two are starting.

He will get games, everyone will. I take it you mean Blind is the one who always plays? If so what has he done wrong to be dropped? Rojo hasn't had a break in three years and LVG is rightly resting him.

 

[RoadTrip]

That's the thing, I'm starting to believe that a lot of posters on here don't watch the matches but base their opinions on results and the media.

It's more that that guy is talking out of his arse.

 

[Rednotdead]

It's more that that guy is talking out of his arse.

Both of you stop behaving like a couple of primary school children who can't stand any opposition to their opinion.

 

[Insanity]

He will get games, everyone will. I take it you mean Blind is the one who always plays? If so what has he done wrong to be dropped? Rojo hasn't had a break in three years and LVG is rightly resting him.

Our best player in the second part of last season "will get games", I am sorry bud, that doesn't fill me with confidence.

When did I say that he has done anything wrong? I was mentioning the players from the last batch who are getting games.

He is "resting" him because Rojo first forgot to renew his passport and the returned fat.

 

[buckooo1978]

We are three games into his second season FFS.
Fergie usually took three season to rebuild, that's the bench mark, only Fergie never had to rebuild like LVG has.

Once could you say he took 3 years to rebuild and he didn't spend anything like Moyes and Van Gaal have

In 95 he changed the team considerably bringing the kids through and getting shot of top international players like Hughes, Ince and Kanchelskis - that took a Summer as he started to phase out players

Fair enough we are 3 games in but the 62 goals we scored last year in the league was a pitiful return for the investment in the team and if we are to progress in terms of actually mounting a challenge until even March we need to score a lot more goals

If own goal keeps up his scoring rate this season we are on course for around 33 league goals.... sensationalist I know after 3 games but this has to improve

The problem is that knowing Van Gaal as we do we know he is likely to stick with a system that isn't working offensively out of sheer stubbornness - yes we had a lot of shots on goal at the weekend, much more than against Spurs but Krul was rarely tested and we predominantly had shots from distance - meanwhile players like Herrera who can offer a bit of diversity in attack but aren't as rigidly obedient aren't getting a chance

even our good spell last year came by accident - tactically we were very poor at times, boring as we are this year. It wasn't until we had RVP injured that he reverted to the system that served us well with Fellaini at 10 and he found his most effective team by chance rather than design

 

[RoadTrip]

Both of you stop behaving like a couple of primary school children who can't stand any opposition to their opinion.

Ok sir.

 

[Getsme]

Our best player in the second part of last season "will get games", I am sorry bud, that doesn't fill me with confidence.

When did I say that he has done anything wrong? I was mentioning the players from the last batch who are getting games.

He is "resting" him because Rojo first forgot to renew his passport and the returned fat.

Yes, he will get games, the midfield is playing pretty well at the moment, I do rate Herrera but I think he is becoming somewhat of a Kagawa figure on here.
You said Blind is being shoehorned into the team, he has done nothing wrong to date playing as CB, that is backed up by the fact the only goal we conceded this season came curtesy of a double deflected shot.
It has nothing to do with Rojo forgetting his passport, he would have missed one game, a game he would most likely not have played in, as for returning fat, where’s your evidence of that?

Ok sir.

 

[dsch]

In this thread: people who are able to consider context in disagreement with those who can't.

 

[steve zizou]

For me, any goals. I've never said anything different.

Haven't we laughed at Arsenal for years because they've consistently played great football but failed to get the results that win you the big prizes? And how do you get those results? You score goals of course. Great attacking football goes for nothing if it doesn't lead to goals. That's the point I've been making all along in this discussion. We've scored one goal in 3 league games (discounting the Spurs OG). Platitudes like "with more luck" and "on another day" have no relevance. Title winners don't need those excuses, they're for also-rans.

People can drool over our attacking play as much as they want, if we don't score the goals it goes for absolutely nothing.

Yes, but scoring goals in a football match goes without saying. Caftards were not happy with our lack of chances and shots in 1st 2 league games. So in our next game, we create a shed load but just can't finish them off. So Caftards become unhappy with lack of goals. So against Swansea, we will score a couple of wonder goals in the game but from fewer chances. Watch as the moan topic fall back to we're not creating enough.
I know people tend to use the words "standards are dropping" just to place unrealistic expectations on the team. Said people rarely watch other football outside United. Else they'd notice that teams (even Barca) rarely reate 20+ chances, have 15+ shots on goal and score 3+ goals every game week!

 

[Red-Jeff]

You must hate the club and our transfer policy as we have spent close to 300m pounds and bought 13 players since Fergie's retirement 2 seasons ago. Seems like not enough credence has been given to the long process of forming a successful endeavor, instead we seem to be in an instant gratification mode.

VG keeps talking like a muppet on the need for a "specia player", which must grind your gears too.

Yes because all we have done is go out and buy superstars We have, for the most part, bought young guys that are not in their prime that we can shape into a cohesive unit. Saying over the top things such as "you must hate the club and our transfer policy" takes away credence from your argument and any valid points you make. Not sure why you are making it about me and putting words in my mouth but you should probably stick to the discussion at hand.

Of course when I mention "the process" 3-4 years is a long time for a team at our level, I'm not talking a decade here.

 

[Insanity]

Yes because all we have done is go out and buy superstars We have, for the most part, bought young guys that are not in their prime that we can shape into a cohesive unit. Saying over the top things such as "you must hate the club and our transfer policy" takes away credence from your argument and any valid points you make. Not sure why you are making it about me and putting words in my mouth but you should probably stick to the discussion at hand.

Of course when I mention "the process" 3-4 years is a long time for a team at our level, I'm not talking a decade here.

Mata
Fellaini
Herrera
Falcao
Di Maria
Schweinsteiger
Schneiderlin
Valdes
Romero
Darmian
Rojo

Just the list of guys "not in their prime" that we have bought/loaned/acquired.

Besides Depay and Shaw, none of our buys are "not in their prime".

I am not making it about you. You made a self-righteous and preachy post without a hint of reality; I was merely disputing it. If you spend 300m on mostly ready made fixes in 2 seasons, then you are not trying a "process", you are doing what others oil money clubs have done before you.

 

[Red-Jeff]

Mata
Fellaini
Herrera
Falcao
Di Maria
Schweinsteiger
Schneiderlin
Valdes
Romero
Darmian
Rojo

Just the list of guys "not in their prime" that we have bought/loaned/acquired.

Besides Depay and Shaw, none of our buys are "not in their prime".

I am not making it about you. You made a self-righteous and preachy post without a hint of reality; I was merely disputing it. If you spend 300m on mostly ready made fixes in 2 seasons, then you are not trying a "process", you are doing what others oil money clubs have done before you.

Telling me that I must hate the club and our transfer policy when I never said anything close to that is not making it about me and detracting from the discussion? Okay...

Almost none of those were superstars when we bought them with the exception of AdM, Mata, and BFS (whom did not cost a superstar fee). My point was and always has been that we are in a transition period and it takes time to rebuild a team, too many of our fans are too impatient and expect it to be perfect right now.

Even after spending that much money it doesn't just magically click, seems like I'm the one that is actually basing his opinions in reality and tempering my expectations contrary to what you state.

The club has made mostly intelligent buys over the last two windows, lots of solid players that will help us progress as a unit. We have a plan and we are working to execute it, seems obvious to me. That's not to say there isn't more to improve but I can definitely see progress and it seems like we are headed in the right direction.

It has nothing to do with being preachy and more to do with being sick and tired of spoiled brats that want success right now and aren't willing to give our manager more than a single year to implement his vision. Might as well turn into Madrid and fire our manager every year and buy world class talents even when they may not fit into the chemistry of the team or may not be necessary.

It is expensive to rebuild a team at this level and this rebuild has been extensive, what more could you expect?

 

[Red-Jeff]

Also 300m on 13 players averages out to about 23m per player, while it is a lot of money it is not as if we went out and signed 13 world class talents that cost a bomb. We just had to upgrade the majority of our positions if we did't want to go into a decline after the Moyes debacle. Now that we have got a decent couple of transfer windows let's give it a little time and see how it turns out.

 

[Sarni]

7 points is decent but we need to win games like Newcastle at home. Then again I don't believe that a title could be won by us this season and for a top 4 finish our current point tally is probably above par anyway (Liverpool have done better considering their fixtures that have been tougher though, cancelled out by Arsenal doing slightly worse).

 

[Sarni]

Also 300m on 13 players averages out to about 23m per player, while it is a lot of money it is not as if we went out and signed 13 world class talents that cost a bomb. We just had to upgrade the majority of our positions if we did't want to go into a decline after the Moyes debacle. Now that we have got a decent couple of transfer windows let's give it a little time and see how it turns out.

This current window could prove to be crucial. We are still missing some ingredients of a truly very good side (especially forwards) but transfers have been far more sensible and thought this year compared to senseless spending spree last year.

 

[Red-Jeff]

This current window could prove to be crucial. We are still missing some ingredients of a truly very good side (especially forwards) but transfers have been far more sensible and thought this year compared to senseless spending spree last year.

I think the only really large mistake we made last year was AdM, but how could anyone have known he would be so content to move on and not try to fight for a spot and play a part in LvGs system?

Falcao was fairly low risk, Rojo always seemed like a squad option, Blind was a great buy, Shaw will be our left back for some time, and Herrera is promising and will definitely get games as the season progresses.

I do agree we are still missing a couple of things but I think overall that our incoming transfers have been very well thought out. Those things we're missing might change as certain players gain/lose form but we have addressed our most pressing problems as far as I am concerned.

 

[Red-Jeff]

Mata
Fellaini
Herrera
Falcao
Di Maria
Schweinsteiger
Schneiderlin
Valdes
Romero
Darmian
Rojo

Just the list of guys "not in their prime" that we have bought/loaned/acquired.

Besides Depay and Shaw, none of our buys are "not in their prime".

I am not making it about you. You made a self-righteous and preachy post without a hint of reality; I was merely disputing it. If you spend 300m on mostly ready made fixes in 2 seasons, then you are not trying a "process", you are doing what others oil money clubs have done before you.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

As far as your comment regarding doing what other oil money clubs have done you are completely off the mark. We have spent a large sum over the last two years but when you put it into the context of what we have spent over the last decade it is obvious that we were going to have to spend at some point in order to rebuild.

Edit: tweet states net spend of United, City, and Chelsea over the past 11 years.

City: 600m
Chelsea: 480m
United: 326m

 

[Red-Jeff]

In this thread: people who are able to consider context in disagreement with those who can't.

Context is for people that don't want to win the argument!

 

[Insanity]

Telling me that I must hate the club and our transfer policy when I never said anything close to that is not making it about me and detracting from the discussion? Okay...

Almost none of those were superstars when we bought them with the exception of AdM, Mata, and BFS (whom did not cost a superstar fee). My point was and always has been that we are in a transition period and it takes time to rebuild a team, too many of our fans are too impatient and expect it to be perfect right now.

Even after spending that much money it doesn't just magically click, seems like I'm the one that is actually basing his opinions in reality and tempering my expectations contrary to what you state.

The club has made mostly intelligent buys over the last two windows, lots of solid players that will help us progress as a unit. We have a plan and we are working to execute it, seems obvious to me. That's not to say there isn't more to improve but I can definitely see progress and it seems like we are headed in the right direction.

It has nothing to do with being preachy and more to do with being sick and tired of spoiled brats that want success right now and aren't willing to give our manager more than a single year to implement his vision. Might as well turn into Madrid and fire our manager every year and buy world class talents even when they may not fit into the chemistry of the team or may not be necessary.

It is expensive to rebuild a team at this level and this rebuild has been extensive, what more could you expect?

I was obviously being sarcastic. For someone getting all Dalai Lama on us and preaching the virtues of patience, you completely ignored the way the club has acted in the last couple of transfer windows. We are looking for instant success, so for you teach that we need to be patient for 3-4 years for the "process" to come to fruition is ridiculous.

Anyway, our problems go well beyond transfers, it's the manager's way of playing that is the real gripe with most people, including me.

As far as your comment regarding doing what other oil money clubs have done you are completely off the mark. We have spent a large sum over the last two years but when you put it into the context of what we have spent over the last decade it is obvious that we were going to have to spend at some point in order to rebuild.

Edit: tweet states net spend of United, City, and Chelsea over the past 11 years.

City: 600m
Chelsea: 480m
United: 326m

This net spend figure should be seen in the right context. City and Chelsea had a lower starting point, of course it took more cash for them to rise to top and match a team that was champion 8 times in the decade before last.

 

[Red-Jeff]

I was obviously being sarcastic. For someone getting all Dalai Lama on us and preaching the virtues of patience, you completely ignored the way the club has acted in the last couple of transfer windows. We are looking for instant success, so for you teach that we need to be patient for 3-4 years for the "process" to come to fruition is ridiculous.


Anyway, our problems go well beyond transfers, it's the manager's way of playing that is the real gripe with most people, including me.

This net spend figure should be seen in the right context. City and Chelsea had a lower starting point, of course it took more cash for them to rise to top and match a team that was champion 8 times in the decade before last.

The Dalai Lama is wonderful, thank you We had to buy nearly a new starting 11 and squad players also, of course the club is going to have to spend a fair amount to get back into contention for silverware! Just because you have spent a lot of money doesn't mean the squad will be immediately cohesive, there is still quite a bit of work left to do on the coaching side of things. Then add in that it would have been impossible to get all of the transfers we needed in one window and it makes sense that a major overhaul would take a few years.

Just because we have a history of success does not mean that we will never have rebuilding periods. The point of the net spend numbers was to show that despite spending a large sum these last two summers it is really not that impressive when you consider how little we spend usually. This rebuild has been a long time coming and the year under Moyes made it an even more difficult task.

It should be noted that when I talked about patience I was referring to the fans, nowhere did I say the club couldn't splash the cash. I said the fans should be patient because even though we have spent a large sum of money the team will not immediately play at the highest level possible, that takes time. You are making a straw man argument, I am saying that the fans should be patient with the club because this kind of overhaul takes time. You said "For someone getting all Dalai Lama on us and preaching the virtues of patience, you completely ignored the way the club has acted in the last couple of transfer windows. We are looking for instant success, so for you teach that we need to be patient for 3-4 years for the "process" to come to fruition is ridiculous." So if I say the fans should take a patient approach then the club should also? No the club should do everything it can to get back to the top but the fans should be patient because it is a process and we are making improvements.