Completely deserved in my book, immense player who single handedly transformed their defense.
But let's not call him the best PL CB in history please.
But let's not call him the best PL CB in history please.
Virgil Van dijk: UEFA Player of the year
- Thread starter VJ1762
- Start date
John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic, Vincent Kompany, Jaap Stam just to name a few. It's a funny thing with Liverpool players that people always throw them into the best ever debate when they've never touched the Premier League trophy. Stevie G is a prime example.
Let me ask you, were you vouching for Cristiano last season in the same vein as this? Because according to you Messi just had a 'freakish' season but somebody had these stats last year - 26 goals in 27 league appearances. 15 goals in the CL (Winner and top scorer) in 12 appearances. 2 in the club WC in 2 apps. 4 in WC in 4 apps. Do the math. According to your logic, it qualifies as a 'freakish' season. And he spent some part of the season injured. Where were you when Modric won it after performing against the likes of Switzerland and Denmark?
Its the typical Messi fanboism when it comes to judging performances. Blame the team for defeat, appreciate Messi for the win. I don't see why Messi shouldn't be blamed for that second leg when he spent most time strolling around the pitch, just like he did in the Copa.
Again, I understand its not easy for you to understand the contribution of a defender when you cream yourselves watching Messi week in week out. Van Dijk had a 50 game streak when nobody (including Messi) could dribble past him. His mere signing calmed down a defence that conceded fewest goals and lost 1 game in the league. Lack football knowledge? Nah mate. More like trying to analyze the bigger picture which you fail to do so.
In hindsight, it's easy to say that. However, our CBs were not the real problem last year. Having Van Dijk instead of Lenglet for example would not help the likes of Busquets, Rakitic gain another speed or regain their prime selfs.It would not change Suarez inability to score more than once or twice over a whole CL campaign. And more importantly it would not make Valverde a better manager and make this team play to its strengths. This guy is a guy that tries to hold on to a result first and foremost, which is not really wrong in general, but Barcelona is not built to do that. Having Van Dijk in our defense would certainly improve the back line, that is without question, but the fact that our mid is constantly overrun by any coach that knows stuff would make even him seem a lesser player. You don't even imagine how many times our CBs are exposed by the turtles that are Busquets and Rakitic. Time and time again they have to face direct attacks by our opponents because these 2 guys can't cover a gimped snail.
So anyway, i agree that we could've used a player like Van Dijk more than Coutinho or Dembele but this is mostly hindsight 101. Our failures in the CL go beyond having lousy CB. In fact, contrary to popular belief, Pique was a damn monster last year. It was one of his best season after a shaky first month. Lenglet also had a pretty damn good season. The major problems lie elsewhere without any doubt.
He is a class act with an enormous presence on the field. I rarely look forward to watching a defender play but I think he's completely absorbing. He'd comfortably get into any team in the world and I'm gutted he plays for Liverpool! Brilliant business by them.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing.
It's a funny thing that people judge the quality of individual players based on trophies in a team sport.
You think his peak was better than Rios? I think that is recency bias
Agree with this, which makes him beating Messi to Uefa player of the year a little silly, although I think he had a very good year
Best CB in my generation.
Someone should do a scientific study about recency bias vs nostalgia. Finally prove once and for all whether the olds or the young are always right. I have no idea whether Stam was better than Van Dijk. Or that 90s pop music is better than the pop music now. It's too long ago.
I do know Stam is now Feyenoord's gaffer and I will pick his side. Go Jaap!
Fun fact, Ajax had to chose between buying Virgil van Dijk or Mike van der Hoorn (who now?) a few years ago and judged Van Dijk's on the ball abilities were lacking.
I do know Stam is now Feyenoord's gaffer and I will pick his side. Go Jaap!
Fun fact, Ajax had to chose between buying Virgil van Dijk or Mike van der Hoorn (who now?) a few years ago and judged Van Dijk's on the ball abilities were lacking.
Didn't realize he had this in him:
And of course, this:
Really is a surprise it was Southampton that took the punt.
And of course, this:
Really is a surprise it was Southampton that took the punt.
Imagine having VVD and De Ligt!
I genuinely forgot to whitetext.
I can agree with that. These kind of things usually favour the best player on the best team / team that won trophies. I think Van Dijk winning the Ballon d'Or would be less of a travesty than Modric winning it last year. People are just bored of Messi and Ronaldo sharing it between the two of them so once any other player has had a remarkable season, he'll get rewarded for it.
That's fair on both counts. If he retires tomorrow Rio is still comfortably ahead.
Which is exactly why VVD won this award over Messi. Contradicting yourself a bit there.
In terms of judging players on trophies won, it's impossible to fully judge a player unless they are in a top team, winning trophies at the top level year in year out.
Take Gerrard for example. Obviously a fantastic player, but the question still looms over him as whether he could play at the highest level every year, consistently driving his team to trophies.
Back to VVD, until he has won a couple of league trophies, with Liverpool or any other team, then he can't be regarded as one of the best to ever do it.
Edit: Disclaimer - I think Virgil is a top level player and if he carries on could go down as an all-time great.
No it's not. You can absolutely judge how good a player is when he's not in a team which is winning trophies every year.
Any examples of top players who weren't in winning teams?
It'll be a small minority, Gerrard, Totti, De Rossi etc.
You can certainly judge a player's ability but you can't judge their ability to play at the highest level.
Why not? They're not hacking about in the conference here, they're playing in the same domestic league, the same European competitions and in the same international tournaments.
Yeah, I agree with that too. He is up there looking at their peaks, but to be considered one if the all time greats in PL you need to perform at a high level season after season.
No I'm not, I don't I've said that Van Dijk deserved it yet. Messi is clearly the best player in the world for me and he had another stellar season, so if these trophies were just for the best player in a given season, Messi should've won it. If they win the CL, there's no doubt that he would've won it. Trophies play a major part in the outcome of these trophies whether we like it or not, but imo they shouldn't play a role when we try to judge the individual quality of a player.
That Van Dijk won it this year is just because people are tired of Messi. If Griezmann scored 51 goals in 50 games (or what are Messi's stats, don't know) and won La Liga with a CL semi-final to boot, I think he would've been very close to winning this as well. But since it's Messi, people are used to it. In that respect, he (and Ronaldo) is a victim of his own success. It's not exclusive to football either, e.g. Derrick Rose winning MVP over LeBron James was just as ridiculous as well but people were just tired of James winning it for years on end.
Robson, Gascoigne, Shearer, Lineker
Messi should have won this easily, Van Dijk is nowhere near him.
The top players horde the best players .. what's new? There's definitely plenty of players who didn't play for top level clubs. Others have given good examples.
They're still playing at pl/cl level, just not alongside as many good players and not in dominant sides. Suarez was still clearly an amazing striker before his move to Liverpool, Kane is still clearly brilliant, De Gea was still a great keeper when he wasn't in a dominant United side .. etc, etc.
A great player is a great player no matter where they're playing.
Messi fanatatics in this thread
Congrats Virgil.
Congrats Virgil.
Actually almost everyone in the Netherlands doubted Suarez when he made his move there. As they did when he moved from FC Groningen to Ajax. His style was always a bit fumbly. Everyone considered an expert said, he won't fumble his way past those strong defenders in England.
I think you are selling Van Dijk short here, he was that good last year and does deserve the award, in fairness an argument can be made for Messi too but I'm glad a defender finally gets some recognition. There hasn't been a great pure dominant defender like VVD for a very long time and there should be recognition for that too, on top of winning the biggest club trophy.
At Liverpool he was clearly brilliant though. It's hard to tell a great player when he plays in the Eredivisie, but if a player is doing some serious work (like suarez was) then it's obvious he's brilliant regardless of whether he's winning trophies or not.
I was also in the camp who thought it was outright ridiculous that Modric won the Ballon d'Or (not even the best player at the WC and he won feck all in the end), so I don't want to look at this through red glasses too much.
Between Messi and Van Dijk, I think you could argue either way depending on which criteria you value most, but it's a testament to Van Dijk's season and performances that it's even a debate given Messi's greatness.
Crazy he was at Southampton a year and a half ago.
He is the reason Liverpool became a top team for me. Sure, Salah and Mane are great, but it was van Dijk who took them to the next level. Why he isn't captain blows my mind. What is Henderson offering that he doesn't?
He is the reason Liverpool became a top team for me. Sure, Salah and Mane are great, but it was van Dijk who took them to the next level. Why he isn't captain blows my mind. What is Henderson offering that he doesn't?
The Modric one wasn't great I agree, but Modric didn't have a season like VVD has had in terms of performance and influence.
You're not up to much yourself mate. To criticise somebody for something and then do it yourself for an even more menial reason (spelling a player's name wrong) before even finishing the sentence takes some doing.
I think I've been pretty clear as to why I think Messi has been better. Yet the abuse you have to take on this place for having a different opinion to people is utterly pathetic. As always, people are entitled to disagree. But at least say why, rather than starting to insult the person without even making the smallest effort to contribute to a conversation.
No, I don't want you to argue. Simply to state why you disagree. The place becomes pretty toxic when people just want to argue.
As for the second highlighted bit..
Yes I agree, Ronaldo should have won it, not Modric.
A quick click on your name shows that your 26. I totally get that you probably don't really remember football pre Messi and Ronaldo (not a criticism, you can't help when you were born
). But I guarantee, when they're gone, you'll realise that what they've been doing is ridiculous.Growing up 1 in 2 was a phenomenal rate of scoring for a striker, and getting 20 goals in a 38 game season made you invaluable. They've completely destroyed all that, but I suspect we'll return to that once they've gone.
I'd say Rio's 07/08 is the only individual season that was better than VVD last season. Obviously the others still have consistency over a number of seasons on their side, but VVD's peak was higher. If he keeps it up for a few more seasons he'll be right up there.
Going by the quotes of his teammates he is the natural captain, and he handles the role exactly the way it should be handled. You don't have to be the best player to be the best captain. The article is a bit cringe, but the quotes are enlightening for understanding the importance of Henderson.
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/clu...-leader-culminating-in-champions-league-glory
As brilliant as they are none of them are in the conversations for best ever in their position. With the exception of Shearer when it comes to the PL, but he's actually won the league.
Yeah i started following football since 2004 maybe but wasn't that keen(lack of access to tv). However I did start following games via newspapers from 2007.Yes I agree, Ronaldo should have won it, not Modric.
A quick click on your name shows that your 26. I totally get that you probably don't really remember football pre Messi and Ronaldo (not a criticism, you can't help when you were born
Growing up 1 in 2 was a phenomenal rate of scoring for a striker, and getting 20 goals in a 38 game season made you invaluable. They've completely destroyed all that, but I suspect we'll return to that once they've gone.
Messi has better stats but for me it's clear which player has had more impact on the field since January 18(when vvd signed for the scousers). No defender can ever match what attackers achieve. But being the driving force behind a team's success for a defender is a huge achievement.
Just merely looking at facts
- VVD came out on top against Messi regardless of whatever happened in both legs.
- Eventually won the CL, finalist previous year (better finish than Messi on both occasions)
- 97 points in the league with 1 defeat (compared to barca's 87 pts and 3 defeats)