We’re not THAT bad

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

We also thought that LvG was the sole problem in 15/16, and that the squad then was absolutely fine, yet in retrospect that squad wasn't very good at all and it has since been ripped up. This was when we thought Schneiderlin would be the player we'd needed for years and once Van Gaal was gone the shackles would be taken off. Many were excited about Darmian as well.


The squad is okay, but it is disjointed. Goalkeeper is fine, but the defence is shambolic, ageing makeshift full backs (except Dalot, and Shaw's into his 5th season here and is still nowhere near making that position his) and a pool of centre backs that can't stay fit.

In midfield, Matic looks finished. I don't have anything against Fellaini, I appreciate the fight he plays with and the important goals he has brought, but I don't like what he brings overall. Herrera is hot and cold but I'd keep. Pogba is top class when he wants to be but he doesn't always want to be. I have no idea if Fred or Pereira are any good because we don't see them except when they're forced into makeshift lineups in cup games, it seems.

We have no right wing. Lukaku is our only true centre forward, and he is garbage right now. Martial is supposed to be a centre forward, but I think he is more effective as a left forward cutting in. He'll probably be off anyway. Rashford's best position is running all over the place. Lingard and Mata are also hot and cold. I don't have faith Sanchez will return to form, nor do I think he wants to be here.


There are some good players in there, but that's all it is - a smattering of decent to good individuals. It isn't a team. It's hard to know if it can be a good team until a good manager comes in and coaches the hell out of it to play reasonable football. I'd assume a new manager is going to want to rip it up as well. And if morale is rock bottom and our better players want out before the ship sinks, then that's an even bigger problem for a new manager to deal with.

 

[Leftback99]

It's still not as good as the top 4 best XIs and lacking in key areas. So we'd end up 5th/6th like we are.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In my opinion we ARE that bad. Roy Keane summed it up best, they are good players but not good enough for United. No doubt the vast majority are really trying but they are not up to it. If you get really ruthless about it we genuinely have 3 or 4 really good players in the squad, that’s it. Manager has to go but far more needs to change too, and the playing personnel is something that needs major surgery imo.

 

[youmeletsfly]

Compared to the level we want to be, yes, we are that bad.

 

[Smores]

How anyone thinks this is a title winning squad is beyond me

I can only think the OP started watching us in the last few years because if you've witnessed the Fergie era this lot pale in comparison.

We don't need a complete overhaul but we need 5 successful transfers in and 5 out to be anywhere near competing.

 

[Red Devil Rising]

No, we're not that bad.

Are people really suggesting that the dozen or so teams in this league (and Derby) that play far better football than ourselves have more talented players?

A great manager doesn't just make fantastic signings, they get the best out of all of the players at their disposal.

Look at how Guardiola and Klopp have elevated the game of the majority of their players (2 of which are now the best in the league who Mourinho shipped out)

Poch is doing it at Spurs, and Emery is doing it at Arsenal.

How many players can you honestly say have improved under Mourinho? He can't even get the best out of players that he himself has brought to the club, and refuses to play a £50 million midfielder because the £70 million centre backs that he also purchased are not good enough.

I wish I could just slip into a coma and get someone to wake me up when this complete farce is over.

 

[arthurka]

News flash we are only as bad as our last match...
So we are absolutely horrible.

 

[RedFan84]

Don't recollect the last time i've seen Man Utd so toothless. Even under the Moyes, LVG eras. Most of the times, the goals were due to individual mistakes and not to colossal team failures and ineptness.

This Man Utd side yesterday might not be that bad compared to Allardyce's Everton but that's not really worth talking about now.

 

[Alex99]

Our problem is that there is no spine to the team.

The only position that is truly settled is De Gea in goal.

We lost Vidic and Ferdinand in the summer of 2014, and 5 summer windows later, we still don't know what our best centre back pairing is. We've not had a settled right back since Neville was last fully fit circa. 2005/06. Evra left in 2014 too, and we've still not replaced him, switching between Shaw, Young and Darmian. We've no idea who our best midfield partnership is, and haven't since Scholes retired in 2013. We haven't the foggiest what set up and personnel are most effective in attack, and haven't since van Persie's form dipped in 2014.

It's a shambles. We've spent hundreds of millions on players for all of these positions, and have somehow assembled a team of squad players that we're angry at for not being good enough, when the reality is we're asking too much of them.

Looking at our squad, the players I'd highlight as "Key" are De Gea, Pogba, Lukaku and Sanchez. The reality is that we can only rely on De Gea (and I think this is almost entirely down to the management), while we still have a gaping hole in our defence.

 

[Siorac]

It's just a giddy Liverpool fan, that's all. Don't forget Fergie's last title winning teams had players like Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, O'Shea, Park etc, etc. Of course it has a-lot to do with the coaching and management. Our team under a progressive, attack-minded manager would look a-lot better than the shite we have been serving up. That Liverpool team on paper does nothing for me, but they are being coached well and even bang average players like Shaqiri are looking good.

Yes, although the Mourinhoist revisionism now got to the point where Liverpool's squad is deemed to be far superior to ours in terms of individual quality.

A few more months and his last remaining acolytes will stubbornly claim that we don't really have better players than Watford.

 

[bludsucker]

We are bad. Very bad. Hang on the squad has some quality in it but not enough imo. Right now everyone in the squad seems to be on a different page altogether. No cohesion at all in our play. That is down to jose and the coaching team. But it’s been five years since saf retired and there have been three different managers since then and it’s been the same story or a slightly different variation of it under each of them. So is it going to be any different under a new manager? I am not saying that Jose shouldn’t be fired but at some point we need to be looking at the players and asking more of them.

 

[Devil77]

Still think that most of our players would look good in a City or Liverpool team. Teams with lots of movement, creativity and, most of all, confidence. Of course you could argue that e.g. De Bruyne is a better player than Herrera, but then again Milner and Henderson are doing great for Liverpool and don't tell me they are world class players.

 

[Tarrou]

People need to stop deluding themselves into thinking this squad is good - it's not, it's gabarge even worse than the Moyes era. What we saw last night are players in Man Utd shirts unable to do simple 5 yard passes, that is a joke! Jose was right to downplay expectations because this team isn't good enough for top 4 which is gone for a while. Let us not forget this is hugely the same team that finished 2nd place ahead of Spurs and Liverpool with the best defence in the league. This now should be taken as a miracle because this same squad can't even do the basic right.

I know you lot are gonna have none of Jose's words so I tell you this simple fact - he is the same manager that taught players do the basics right which got him success in everywhere he goes including United. Did he forgot his principles in just one season half or did the players went "feck this! We can do whatever we want"?

This same shitty attitude bought down LVG and same is doing for Jose. Whoever comes in need to get rid of the poisonous dressing room before the same happens to him.

He didn't forget anything but the game has evolved and left him behind. He seems to have issues accepting any responsibility and won't adapt his approach as a result, like other great managers have done before him.

 

[SteveTheRed]

Individually we have a great team, how many times have we seen that fail? We used to take the piss out of City for the same thing.

They are all v. good players in their position, and no doubt when a new face steps in as manager they will suddenly learn how to pass a ball. State of football these days.

 

[Alex99]

People need to stop deluding themselves into thinking this squad is good - it's not, it's gabarge even worse than the Moyes era. What we saw last night are players in Man Utd shirts unable to do simple 5 yard passes, that is a joke! Jose was right to downplay expectations because this team isn't good enough for top 4 which is gone for a while. Let us not forget this is hugely the same team that finished 2nd place ahead of Spurs and Liverpool with the best defence in the league. This now should be taken as a miracle because this same squad can't even do the basic right.

I know you lot are gonna have none of Jose's words so I tell you this simple fact - he is the same manager that taught players do the basics right which got him success in everywhere he goes including United. Did he forgot his principles in just one season half or did the players went "feck this! We can do whatever we want"?

This same shitty attitude bought down LVG and same is doing for Jose. Whoever comes in need to get rid of the poisonous dressing room before the same happens to him.

Both LvG and Mourinho undertook fairly substantial squad overhauls. If the players aren't listening to them then they've only themselves to blame for not replacing them. Neither have lacked financial backing.

Mourinho's outlook and attitude towards football is dated and ineffective. His main concern is always himself, which is why he repeatedly falls out with players, boards and fans, and he repeatedly leaves clubs in turmoil. We were naive to think it'd be any different with us.

We finished 2nd last year, and many thought we'd be able to build on that, or at the very worst find ourselves in the top 4 pack. As it stands, we're miles off the pace of the top 4, and are currently performing worse than we did under Moyes. The only person to blame for that is Mourinho. We're almost halfway through the season, sat in 6th, but find ourselves closer to Brighton in 13th than we do to Arsenal in 5th, and closer to Fulham in 20th than Liverpool in 1st.

 

[Christie]

[QUOTE="Red Devil Rising, post: 23425336, member: 108037"
How many players can you honestly say have improved under Mourinho?[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head:
Ronaldo
Ramos
These two guys probably don't love him, but Mourinho was instrumental in making Ronaldo into a pure goalscorer and converting Ramos from full back to world class CB.

Benzema - undeniably became much better under Mourinho.

Lampard- from meh good player to world class.

Joe Cole

Arjen Robben

Way too many to list here

 

[VeevaVee]

Don't agree the squad isn't bad for our standards but it's good enough to be top 4.

Need at least one quality new player in each section of the pitch, if not two.

Bench is about as useful and exciting as a wet flannel too, but there's no point even thinking that far yet.

 

[Red Devil Rising]

[QUOTE="Red Devil Rising, post: 23425336, member: 108037"
How many players can you honestly say have improved under Mourinho?

Off the top of my head:
Ronaldo
Ramos
These two guys probably don't love him, but Mourinho was instrumental in making Ronaldo into a pure goalscorer and converting Ramos from full back to world class CB.

Benzema - undeniably became much better under Mourinho.

Lampard- from meh good player to world class.

Joe Cole

Arjen Robben

Way too many to list here[/QUOTE]

I'm on about here, at United.

No-one doubts what he's done in the past. Look at how Terry/Lampard improved under him.

At United though?

 

[Foxbatt]

If Rio and Vidic played in this team under the same tactics and conditions, they will also look bad. No defence can hold on for so long when under pressure for 90 mins. This is what happens to us. This is why we concede. Lukaku cannot hold the ball for his life. Fellaini cannot play a simple pass or hold it. Pogba tries fancy stuff and lose it. The ball is always back as soon as the defence clears it.
Yes a better manager will get this lot playing much better football. He will also drop players like Lukaku and Fellaini.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

I think the main problem with the team is the midfield. It's the one place that is responsible for every part of the match. The tackling, passing, chance creation etc. They can't even seem to move the ball up the pitch. They play like it's a game of FIFA. Just past it up the pitch as fast as possible and there's no support around so you lose the ball and back down it goes again. They've a complete inability to play the ball through the middle. Every player is to far away from eachother.

 

[CM]

In the same way that pre-Klopp, Wijnaldum, Milner, Shaqiri, Henderson, and Robertson wouldn’t either.

No squad (apart from City’s) is loaded with star studded talent in near enough every position.

A cohesive system and player confidence does eons to a team. Ours have been at rock bottom for at least a year now.

It isn't just those players either. Firmino was a nothing player under Rodgers and looked a different player entirely after just a few weeks of working with Klopp.

It's impossible to judge many of the players in this team under current management - someone like Lukaku (who I don't even particularly rate and didn't want us to sign) went from scoring 25 league goals in his final season for Everton to becoming a useless lump up front for us. That can't all be on him.

 

[EwanI Ted]

United's squad is certainly lacking in a few areas, but there is no way we're playing at the limit of their abilities right now.

Lukaku is a prime example. Personally I never wanted the player & thought his work rate and first touch would be exposed at United. But at the same time, the guy has ~90 premier league goals by the age of 25, so he's obviously not the complete donkey he looks right now. You can go through the team and say the same of almost every player. Perhaps Pogba does lack the spark that elevates good players to great, but he's clealy not as bad as the performance we saw against Southampton. Rashford may never be hit a 30 goal season, but he's better than the headless chicken we've had all year. Maybe Sanchez will never be the player has been before, but he's better than the non-player we've had since we signed him.

I personally blame the manager, but whatever you think the reason is, this group of players is capable of way more than we've seen this season. We're dont have midtable players, despite the performances suggesting otherwise.

 

[Robbo's Shoulder]

The squad on paper isn't that bad, not great but not bad. What we severely lack however is leaders. Someone to organise and instil discapline when under pressure and drive the team on when the chance arrives. It was noticable how disorganised the team were once and after that second goal went in, that's when we needed a Robson or Keano figure, someone to drive the others on and get a grip in the game.

 

[youngrell]

Just a simple 10% increase in effort and intensity would see our performances raise instantly.

Watching highlights of Southampton's approach yesterday was unbelievable, we're lucky they didn't make the change a couple of weeks earlier.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Even when we finished a distant second last year, us fans weren't particularly thrilled, which should speak volumes about what fans really want from the team. Good, aesthetically pleasing football. There's an art to how Manchester United play, or rather, there ought to be. If nothing else, we should be adventurous, attacking and ambitious with the ball. Even if we win a trophy or finish second, it's still ultimately about how we did it.

Aesthetics aren't as important as trophies, however, a good reason we watch football in the first place is for reasons related to entertainment! Trophies without style are often unmemorable compared to success with it.

 

[Bwuk]

I can't say I agree.

I think we are that bad. I think our squad is very poor, how many of our players get in the other top 6 teams starting 11s?

 

[Buster15]

Just a simple 10% increase in effort and intensity would see our performances raise instantly.

Watching highlights of Southampton's approach yesterday was unbelievable, we're lucky they didn't make the change a couple of weeks earlier.

Yes. Agreed.
The question is why are the players not giving that extra 10% effort because it is plain as day that this would improve our performance as a team.

Is it Jose who is not pushing them hard enough.
Is it Carrick and McKenna who are not pushing them
Or is the players who are happy just going through the motions until the manager gets the push.

 

[NinjaFletch]

De Gea

Dalot
Bailly
Smalling
Shaw

Herrera
Fred
Pogba

Martial
Rashford
Sanchez

Do you seriously, honestly, look at that list of names and think 'Title winning squad'?

Have you seen our rivals squads?

We're shit. We're badly managed, badly run, and have crap players relative to the amount of money we've spent on them. Burying your head in the sand about it just means we will do the same dance next year when sacking Mourinho doesn't solve every single issue.

 

[Raees]

Agree with OP - I’d enjoy coaching this squad - needs a few tweaks but it has serious potential to play very exciting football IMO.

 

[devilish]

Do you seriously, honestly, look at that list of names and think 'Title winning squad'?

Have you seen our rivals squads?

We're shit. We're badly managed, badly run, and have crap players relative to the amount of money we've spent on them. Burying your head in the sand about it just means we will do the same dance next year when sacking Mourinho doesn't solve every single issue.

In my opinion we need to stop being delusional and aim for the title. We simply are light years away from that. What we need is someone to come in, rally the troops, and make the most of the talent there is. Sure, we're not title contenders but we're not 6th place material neither. If you ask me, there's some sort of foundation to build upon. DDG is the best goalkeeper in the world, Lukaku was a regular scorer at Everton while Pogba was considered one of the best playmakers around. Sanchez and Mata have great talent if we can get the ball rolling on that part. There's some solid players to rely upon in Herrera, Fred and Smalling + there's some good young talent coming through in Martial, Rashford, Dalot, Shaw, Periera, TFM, Tuanzebe.

Sure, we need some big changes on board level. The board is indeed naive, we pay too much for players, we take ages to get rid of the deadwood and we give top contract extensions to players no one want (ex Fellaini). However lets not be kidding here. Mou plays a huge part of this disaster. He spent 400m on players who had under performed big time and the team's confidence is at the pits thanks to him.

 

[devilish]

Agree with OP - I’d enjoy coaching this squad - needs a few tweaks but it has serious potential to play very exciting football IMO.

I wouldn't say serious potential because that's incorrect. However there's some sort of foundation to build upon. We just need the right people to do it.

 

[Betson]

It is complete delusion to think that this squad is good enough to compete for major honours.

 

[red4ever 79]

Manager not good enough to coach us. At least 8 players need to go, and a DOF needs to come in. Will take us at least 5 years to be competitive again.

 

[UpWithRivers]

It is complete delusion to think that this squad is good enough to compete for major honours.

It also a complete delusion that we dont have a squad good enough for top 4.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

We only need to appoint an attacking-minded manager

I think we need to stop saying this. All we need is a manager who knows what he is doing and can implement an idea and create an environment for our players to flourish.

I do agree that as a whole the personal we have in the team is much better than it has shown and would probably benefit from not being played in the manner it is with Jose’s tactical setup. Shaquiris 2 goals yesterday game as a concequence to Jose’s tactics.

 

[kouroux]

We are fecking shit.

 

[Sterling Archer]

It's a catch 22. On the one hand some of these players have shown glimpses of genuine quality and might be able to contribute to a functional squad. And on the other hand the United I've been watching for the last five years has been so bad that I wouldn't mind never seeing the faces of some of these players in our shirt again just to help move on.

I'd keep more than enough to be a realistic clearout:
- de Gea
- Dalot
- Martial
- Rashford
- Lindelof
- Jesse
- Mata
- Herrera
- Smalling
- Pereira
- McTominay
- Fred
- Romero
- Joel

Some of that list is based off the fact we haven't seen enough of some these players in a different setup to fully judge em. But the ones below, just too much trouble too many bad memories.

Bye:
- Pogba
- Lukaku
- Matic
- Fellaini
- Jones
- Valencia
- Young
- Rojo
- Shaw
- Bailly
- Alexis
- Darmian

 

[AndyJ1985]

We are that bad. All you have to do is watch one of our matches to see that.

 

[red4ever 79]

One of the worst Utd teams I have ever seen, probably the worst. I actually dont like our players as a fan either, except big Dave and Martial. Cant stand the manager, the CEO and 99% of the playing squad.

 

[fezzerUTD]

De Gea

Dalot - young not ready, also don't see anything where he is going to be class. Looked like he was running through sand going back against Fulham
Bailly - good defender but a donkey, hoofs the ball anywhere and erratic.
Smalling - crap, grabbing, turns like a rugby player, and can tell where his passing is always heading.
Shaw - good with the ball, terrible without.

Herrera - like him, works hard, just not enough quality.
Fred - not here long enough, not sure he will succeed. gives the ball away often.
Pogba - no idea, want him to live up to expectations but doesn't work hard enough. And do simple things.

Martial - Fast and works hard, very hard. Doesn't have end product nor a natural footballing brain.
Rashford - Opposite to Rashford (except fast as well).
Sanchez - Needs to play in a attacking side to get the best out of him, maybe done.