We are an awfully coached team

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
5,078
Location
FIFA Headquarters
Thanks for emphatically proving my point.
Or more likely I’ve proven the point that your so clearly missing, as others have pointed out.

You don’t compete at the top of this league and be top scorers without ‘patterns of play’ and attacking intent backed up with coaching. You just don’t, if you don’t appreciate that then let’s save our breath.
 

Halftrack

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
2,243
Location
Chair
There’s countless examples of it. Just search up the term ‘patterns of play’. It’s now used as a sarcastic quip to make out that people are too dumb to be able to watch United games and process what goes on during it. The two people I quoted responded to this post.


It’s not a straw man at all...

And no, I don’t think there is a lack of understanding from both sides with this specific argument. It’s heavily with one side. I’ve seen people in here repeatedly say they’re happy with everything else but want to see better football only to be greeted by snobby posts see above.

A few days back I said something about if our football was easy on the eye, it would get more recognition outside the club, more pundits would speak about it and not just throw us back handed compliments about counter attacking and the person kept responding with “no that’s not true”.
You seemed to be speaking in very general terms with regards to the lack of understanding, so I responded in general terms. If we narrow it down to just this specific discussion, the only one who seems to lack understanding is you. You talk about these posters that think we're well-drilled because Shaw and Rashford did a one-two or whatever, yet I've not seen a single post suggesting that. The current discussion isn't even about that, it seems to revolve more around whether City's current defensive solidity is more due to being well drilled or if it's more because they've added a solid defensive player, and at no point was it about whether or not we are well-drilled.

As for 'patterns of play', the idea that we don't have them is laughable. They're definitely not as well-drilled and defined as City's, but do they need to be? Is it a requirement for success? The reason it's being used as a sarcastic quip is that people will cite the lack of them (which, as previously stated, is a laughable idea) as proof that we're awfully coached. Some seem to have this idea that if you don't have clearly identifiable and well-rehearsed pattern of play like City, you're awfully coached.

Cool story about you expressing an opinion and someone disagreeing with it. For what it's worth, I disagree with it as well. I think our football is easy on the eye, with the exception of our defending on set pieces.
 

Leroy The Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
13,989
Location
London
Or more likely I’ve proven the point that your so clearly missing, as others have pointed out.

You don’t compete at the top of this league and be top scorers without ‘patterns of play’ and attacking intent backed up with coaching. You just don’t, if you don’t appreciate that then let’s save our breath.
Except I’m not missing it. Again i’ve acknowledged we’re a very productive and efficient side. I don’t say we don’t try and attack. The manager repeatedly comes out and says we need to do better during games. Gary Neville says it, so many people say it.
Why can’t you just accept that a lot of people including a lot of United fans expect and hope to see better football regardless of league position or wins ? Why is this so hard to accept? It’s such a common thing. Even at lesser clubs like Newcastle, Stoke, they’ve achieved their expectations but have still expressed a desire to expect better football.

You seemed to be speaking in very general terms with regards to the lack of understanding, so I responded in general terms. If we narrow it down to just this specific discussion, the only one who seems to lack understanding is you. You talk about these posters that think we're well-drilled because Shaw and Rashford did a one-two or whatever, yet I've not seen a single post suggesting that. The current discussion isn't even about that, it seems to revolve more around whether City's current defensive solidity is more due to being well drilled or if it's more because they've added a solid defensive player, and at no point was it about whether or not we are well-drilled.

As for 'patterns of play', the idea that we don't have them is laughable. They're definitely not as well-drilled and defined as City's, but do they need to be? Is it a requirement for success? The reason it's being used as a sarcastic quip is that people will cite the lack of them (which, as previously stated, is a laughable idea) as proof that we're awfully coached. Some seem to have this idea that if you don't have clearly identifiable and well-rehearsed pattern of play like City, you're awfully coached.

Cool story about you expressing an opinion and someone disagreeing with it. For what it's worth, I disagree with it as well. I think our football is easy on the eye, with the exception of our defending on set pieces.
The posts are there, I’m not in the habit of making things up. You’ve just not seen them. I even gave you a quote of someone using the snarky ‘patterns of play’ line.

If you recall, it was you who responded to my post initially. So you can’t really sit there and tell me what the discussion I was having was about. You interjected into a post that I had quoted.

Maybe there are some people who don’t think we coach/train or have patterns of play. Obviously these people don’t know anything and are probably not worth listening to. However people who come up with solid arguments are still greeted with the same sarcastic tripe. Just look at the last poster who quoted me.

And yes it is definitely a requirement to be a success. We’ve had no success as a result of it. Unless of course you deem 3rd and Semi finals a success? But the last eight years are a result of a sub standard style of football amongst other things.

Regulus gave the Real Madrid example which is an anomaly but that was achieved with a genuinely world class eleven. Something we are very far away from having.

And yes you can disagree that our football isnt easy on the eye. Unfortunately it is not an opinion that is shared amongst most in the football world.
If your take from the games this season against Brighton, Arsenal twice, West Brom twice, Sheffield United, Newcastle, Wolves, Istanbul etc is that it is only defending from set pieces is what was missing that then that’s your prerogative but expect a lot of people to disagree with it.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
5,078
Location
FIFA Headquarters
Such a crap lazy argument.

Aside from DvB, Cavani, Telles and Diallo, who the feck did you want the club to sign during that last Covid hit window? Which clubs had a better window?
It was one point of multiple points in my post and it was a disappointing window, we were chasing Sancho, fecked that up totally.

After finishing top four we needed to clearly strengthen, if you discount Diallo as he’s one for the future then we didn’t improve the starting 11 one bit, aside from the fact that Martial is so awful this season that Cavani is an upgrade on him.

If you handed anybody here that list of players before the start of the last window they would have been absolutely disappointed, rightly so.

Anyway my point was more broadly about this point that apparently we are awfully coached and that we just throw some talented players on the pitch and score more than any team in the most competitive league in Europe. Perspective needed.
 

RedChisel

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
158
Call me primitive but I actually prefer to watch a team like ours with fast, exciting wingers and break neck counters than watching a load of midgets play pretty triangles and bore everyone to death.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
5,078
Location
FIFA Headquarters
Except I’m not missing it. Again i’ve acknowledged we’re a very productive and efficient side. I don’t say we don’t try and attack. The manager repeatedly comes out and says we need to do better during games. Gary Neville says it, so many people say it.
Why can’t you just accept that a lot of people including a lot of United fans expect and hope to see better football regardless of league position or wins ? Why is this so hard to accept? It’s such a common thing. Even at lesser clubs like Newcastle, Stoke, they’ve achieved their expectations but have still expressed a desire to expect better football.
So what do you describe as ‘better football’ ?

We press, we play a nice interchangeable front three, we have Bruno dictating the attacks, a broad spread of the goals between the attack rather than a single striker like some teams (which can be a weakness.).

Attacking football with lots of goals and chances including some brilliant counterattacks... that literally describes United and what attracted so many to the club in our pomp.

Now clearly there are improvements to be made in a handful of positions, namely CB, DM, CF and RW. If we get two top level players in two of those positions this summer then we will challenge.

I don’t understand what you mean by ‘better football.’ The aim is to attack and score goals in order to entertain.
Do you want to see possession sideways ball retention like LVG?
Super defensive like Mourinho?

Sure we start games slow and we have weak mentality in the starting 11 through a lack of leaders, we drop silly points. That’s where I would agree the next improvement needs to be made, signing the aforementioned players I’m sure would go a long way towards that.
 

Leroy The Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
13,989
Location
London
So what do you describe as ‘better football’ ?

We press, we play a nice interchangeable front three, we have Bruno dictating the attacks, a broad spread of the goals between the attack rather than a single striker like some teams (which can be a weakness.).

Attacking football with lots of goals and chances including some brilliant counterattacks... that literally describes United and what attracted so many to the club in our pomp.

Now clearly there are improvements to be made in a handful of positions, namely CB, DM, CF and RW. If we get two top level players in two of those positions this summer then we will challenge.

I don’t understand what you mean by ‘better football.’ The aim is to attack and score goals in order to entertain.
Do you want to see possession sideways ball retention like LVG?
Super defensive like Mourinho?

Sure we start games slow and we have weak mentality in the starting 11 through a lack of leaders, we drop silly points. That’s where I would agree the next improvement needs to be made, signing the aforementioned players I’m sure would go a long way towards that.
I’m a little surprised you mention our press. It looks really disjointed to me a lot of the time.
But anyway to answer your question I want to see better football in the sense of how we impose ourselves on a game. Starting well and fast, Dictating, dominating, pulling the opposition out of position, off the ball movement, better decision making, more expansive passing from anyone not named Bruno, Pogba or Rashford. Especially against teams that sit back.

If we improved in these areas we wouldn’t have results like - Palace at home twice, West Brom, Sheffield Utd, Huddersfield, Burnley, Watford, Istanbul, the list is endless etc etc.
It is literally holding us back and what makes it so frustrating is that mostly everything else is there including some of the things you’ve mentioned but until this is rectified we’ll be stuck in this cycle.

I agree we need new additions, but unless we go out and sign world class established players in all those positions, they’ll come here and be stuck in the same cycle. It’s easier to get the system right and then put the players in after.

Six seven years ago I think we win trophies as we are and compete for titles. But the bar has been raised by Klopp and Pep and what they’ve done with their teams. We need to up our game. And games like West Brom and Sheff utd Cannot still be happening, two years into this regime and it happens because of our lack of quality going forward which is why people pop in here and constantly moan about it. Even after wins...
 

Halftrack

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
2,243
Location
Chair
The posts are there, I’m not in the habit of making things up. You’ve just not seen them. I even gave you a quote of someone using the snarky ‘patterns of play’ line.

If you recall, it was you who responded to my post initially. So you can’t really sit there and tell me what the discussion I was having was about. You interjected into a post that I had quoted.

Maybe there are some people who don’t think we coach/train or have patterns of play. Obviously these people don’t know anything and are probably not worth listening to. However people who come up with solid arguments are still greeted with the same sarcastic tripe. Just look at the last poster who quoted me.

And yes it is definitely a requirement to be a success. We’ve had no success as a result of it. Unless of course you deem 3rd and Semi finals a success? But the last eight years are a result of a sub standard style of football amongst other things.

Regulus gave the Real Madrid example which is an anomaly but that was achieved with a genuinely world class eleven. Something we are very far away from having.

And yes you can disagree that our football isnt easy on the eye. Unfortunately it is not an opinion that is shared amongst most in the football world.
If your take from the games this season against Brighton, Arsenal twice, West Brom twice, Sheffield United, Newcastle, Wolves, Istanbul etc is that it is only defending from set pieces is what was missing that then that’s your prerogative but expect a lot of people to disagree with it.
The sarcastic posts making fun of people moaning about patterns of play? Of course they are, because there are people who are taking us not having as clearly defined patterns as City as proof that we are awfully coached and have been moaning about it for nigh on two years.

The discussion you were having? Pardon me, but quoting two posters and going "I agree with you, these people are dumb and can't understand all of our complex thoughts" is not having a discussion, that's just (shit)posting on the internet. You added nothing, you just took an opportunity to moan about how others are inferior for not agreeing with you.

"We've had no success as a result of it." We've literally had one full season under Ole, only a raving tosspot would think that's a big enough sample size to make any definitive statements about whether or not his approach has merit.

And that final line is pure biased assumption. Have you polled most of the footballing world? Or do you have access to numbers from someone who has? Or are you talking out of your arse?
 

Leroy The Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
13,989
Location
London
The sarcastic posts making fun of people moaning about patterns of play? Of course they are, because there are people who are taking us not having as clearly defined patterns as City as proof that we are awfully coached and have been moaning about it for nigh on two years.

The discussion you were having? Pardon me, but quoting two posters and going "I agree with you, these people are dumb and can't understand all of our complex thoughts" is not having a discussion, that's just (shit)posting on the internet. You added nothing, you just took an opportunity to moan about how others are inferior for not agreeing with you.

"We've had no success as a result of it." We've literally had one full season under Ole, only a raving tosspot would think that's a big enough sample size to make any definitive statements about whether or not his approach has merit.

And that final line is pure biased assumption. Have you polled most of the footballing world? Or do you have access to numbers from someone who has? Or are you talking out of your arse?
They clearly mean awfully coached in THAT aspect. Which isn’t wide of the mark. You could easily make the argument that we’re ‘awfully coached’ for our set piece defending which you yourself mentioned.
I’m sure these posters don’t literally mean or think that we turn up to training and Ole has us running laps around the field all day. Maybe the thread title needs changing as it’s too dramatic.

And Nope that’s not what I said. If you interpreted it that way that’s your problem. The two posters made solid points , ones ive seen made before and then get greeted with ridicule. Hence why I said it was wasted because people don’t seem to want to understand that view point. I’ve not said or implied people are dumb.

Only a raving tosspot would think when I say things like “But the last eight years are a result of a sub standard style of football amongst other things.” Am I only referring to Oles reign. What that obviously implies is that this happened under all previous managers post Fergie.

Pure biased assumption or listening to pundits, fans, friends and fellow United fans.
Do I need to go around and take a survey to be able to come to the conclusion that in general people don’t see United as a great footballing aide?
I would suggest that someone suggesting United play great football and that it’s widely recognised is talking out of their arse and being biased.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
5,073
Location
Manchester
Call me primitive but I actually prefer to watch a team like ours with fast, exciting wingers and break neck counters than watching a load of midgets play pretty triangles and bore everyone to death.
I agree.

The issue is, not every team is going to allow you acreas of space on the counter. And in those games the lack of any sort of plan, cohesion and understanding on how to break them down becomes evident.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

I can't drive...55
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
1,321
Putting aside the Solskjaer issue, we may have appointed big name managers - but that's all they were at that point. big names, who were no longer big managers.

We still haven't gone down the road of appointing great managers.
You can never be sure, though. It's one of those "the proof is in the pudding" things. I'll only judge a United manager on what he's done at United. Past achievement is not a guarantor of much in the future.

There are big question marks over every manager out there. Pep and Klopp have managed rivals, so we won't take them, and even if we did, they seem to be on the wane. Zidane, but can he do it outside of Real Madrid? Allegri, Conte etc are a bit meh. There are some exciting younger managers, but are still unproven in terms of winning.

I just don't see any sure bets.
 

Amir

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
22,837
Location
Rehovot, Israel
I just don't see any sure bets.
Oh, there are never sure bets in football, on managers or players. I'm just pointing out that since we seemed to just appoint whoever had the most trophies and was available, we neglected to examine people deeper. The warning signs were there with Van Gaal and Mourinho. They had a great past, but were no longer great managers. Their tenure with us just confirmed it.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

I can't drive...55
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
1,321
Oh, there are never sure bets in football, on managers or players. I'm just pointing out that since we seemed to just appoint whoever had the most trophies and was available, we neglected to examine people deeper. The warning signs were there with Van Gaal and Mourinho. They had a great past, but were no longer great managers. Their tenure with us just confirmed it.
Good point, and I agree. It does however point to another issue that I think is the cause of all this; the owners and the board. That doesn't look like it's going to be addressed or fixed any time soon, and there's nothing to suggest they would appoint a good manager if they sacked Ole, or if they would back said manager with the transfers he needed.

There's some discrepancy between what we as fans want and what the owners/board want. That's before even discussing their competence.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
2,120
Exactly, and that is why keep going on about patterns of play. It worked then, because United had Bobby and Best, and teams in general maybe weren't so great tactically. We are spoiled by usually having the best players, and therefore dictate the game. However, that is an obsolete tactic because every team is so tactically drilled, and has so good footballers, that you can't get away with it as often. United still has one of the best squads, but United can get outplayed by Brighton because Brighton is tactically inferior (in that game). It's not a modern tactic, relying on individuals. That's why the best teams (like City and Liverpool) have the best coaches with a clear pattern. I'm not a football star in any sense, but I have been playing fairly high up. I, and I can only talk for myself but it's my general feeling, like it best when I know what my coach wants. When I know how our attacking play is gonna happen, and when I know how we will set up our defense. I have played under managers that do both, under one manager I had no confidence because he was very unclear in how we were going to set up the team. I'm sure he had a vision, but he couldn't implement it. Then I had another manager that was so clear from day one. This is how we are going to do, and this is how it will look. No bullshit. We played simple football, but effectively. I knew what I was going to do before I got the ball, and I knew where my teammates were because we practiced it all the time. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Every training. My picture of United is that Ole is very unclear in what he wants, and therefore makes it more difficult for the players. Some like system and some don't. Is it any wonder that Martial was better with LvG? Then again, Bruno probably prefers his freedom and takes it as it comes. There is a good reason why Pep and Klopp, the most successful managers, is having a clear system. Because it doesn't make them too vulnerable if players drop in form. I remember a Klopp b team winning against Arsenal at Anfield, they had almost no first-teamers. They won because every single player knew exactly what they would do, and they were confident in that. When United rotates, particularly, then you can see that we kind of look lost. That's because of this.
I don't disagree about the logic and that other teams especially in the PL, are much now better, than say the opposition was in the old Div 1 and present 'stiffer opposition because of the way they are set up to play. However if we want to be difficult to beat then we should not have a preferred method/style/tactical play, because as has been seen this season in particular, once your system is 'rumbled' by the opposition, they will adapt and you have to change it. Getting players to 'game manage' or manage different situations arising within the game, is very difficult and relies on at least half the team recognising, during the game, what's going on and changing their approach and taking the others with them. If you listen to such as Gary Neville and Roy Keane talk about their experiences you will appreciate how good SAF teams were at doing this. You could argue it was because half the team were leaders, not just the recognised captain.

It is a dilemma for Ole, he desperately wants to play in the Old 'United Way', but for that he needs world/top class players/leaders, again in at least half the positions in the team and thus far he hasn't got it.
Whilst recognising that the game has become more tactical, players who can improvise and have the skills to carry through their improvisation are worth their weight in gold. 'Pressing' is a good example, we were rubbish once, then we got reasonable, now teams like Sheffield/Newcastle can give us a game in our own third of the pitch, force errors on our keeper (De Gea mainly) and our defenders who hate taking a ball facing their own goal. In such situations we now need someone to say "they are murdering us", lets do something different, don't wait for the manager to come and signal, like pep does, Ole is not that insightful and likes to see more from the bench.
I still believe that with some players you can 'throw them the ball and say get on with it' and some players you have to tell exactly what to do and when they don't know, make sure they have the sense ask some who does!
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
8,538
I don't disagree about the logic and that other teams especially in the PL, are much now better, than say the opposition was in the old Div 1 and present 'stiffer opposition because of the way they are set up to play. However if we want to be difficult to beat then we should not have a preferred method/style/tactical play, because as has been seen this season in particular, once your system is 'rumbled' by the opposition, they will adapt and you have to change it. Getting players to 'game manage' or manage different situations arising within the game, is very difficult and relies on at least half the team recognising, during the game, what's going on and changing their approach and taking the others with them. If you listen to such as Gary Neville and Roy Keane talk about their experiences you will appreciate how good SAF teams were at doing this. You could argue it was because half the team were leaders, not just the recognised captain.

It is a dilemma for Ole, he desperately wants to play in the Old 'United Way', but for that he needs world/top class players/leaders, again in at least half the positions in the team and thus far he hasn't got it.
Whilst recognising that the game has become more tactical, players who can improvise and have the skills to carry through their improvisation are worth their weight in gold. 'Pressing' is a good example, we were rubbish once, then we got reasonable, now teams like Sheffield/Newcastle can give us a game in our own third of the pitch, force errors on our keeper (De Gea mainly) and our defenders who hate taking a ball facing their own goal. In such situations we now need someone to say "they are murdering us", lets do something different, don't wait for the manager to come and signal, like pep does, Ole is not that insightful and likes to see more from the bench.
I still believe that with some players you can 'throw them the ball and say get on with it' and some players you have to tell exactly what to do and when they don't know, make sure they have the sense ask some who does!
Good analysis. Also Ian Wright said the same thing. He said when he played for Arsenal, the Manager decides how they are going to play but someone like Tony Adams take charge on the pitch and if their defense was under the cosh he would drag the forwards back into midfield to help defending while the defense can take a breather.
We don't have a leader on the pitch apart from Bruno. I think it was a huge mistake to make Maguire the captain so early on.
We can't play the way we played under SAF. We don't have the players plus lots of other teams have as good players as we have and more experienced managers.
 

::sonny::

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
13,678
Location
Milan
Terrible managed, that second place is an unrepeatable miracle only thanks to the Bruno, Rashord, Shaw and McT form.
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
35,627
Location
Egypt
Call me primitive but I actually prefer to watch a team like ours with fast, exciting wingers and break neck counters than watching a load of midgets play pretty triangles and bore everyone to death.
Not when these midgets and pretty triangles are winning the league with 10 points difference from 2nd spot.
 

Polar

Full Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Messages
419
Terrible managed, that second place is an unrepeatable miracle only thanks to the Bruno, Rashord, Shaw and McT form.
Taking into account the quality of our squad it’s no doubt we are over performing = good management.

Central defence = pretty average (mid-table quality) in total.

Striker = pretty average

RW = pretty average

LW = top 2 quality

L/R Backs = top 2 quality

CM = maybe top 5 quality in total

AM = top 2 quality

GM = ?