We are an awfully coached team

Andersonson

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We might end up with 75/80 points this season.

Other sides besides City struggles with the fixture list and intensity this season. We're coping very well too considering our squad.

The staff has done a really good job. I think in a season or two we'll win the league!

Ole Ole
 

OmarUnited4ever

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So after 30 games in the league, and 70+ pages and 3k posts in this thread, do we have an answer to the question if we are an awfully coached team or not?

I'm not sure if I can answer question after watching us play this season.

But what I can say for certain is that we are very inconsistent..that much is clear at least.
 

el3mel

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So after 30 games in the league, and 70+ pages and 3k posts in this thread, do we have an answer to the question if we are an awfully coached team or not?

I'm not sure if I can answer question after watching us play this season.

But what I can say for certain is that we are very inconsistent..that much is clear at least.
Really ? I honestly think the answer is really easy. Yes, we're not really a well coached team at all. We don't play a fully good 90 minutes. However we have a lot of quality and in fairness, Ole plays most of them in their best position so we're bound to win more often than not. Good luck challenging or winning a major title like league or CL with this general play though. It just won't happen, period.
 

Flexdegea

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Last two years.

Before game: We are awful and every manager is better then ours.

During game: Sack him. Sack manager. Buy Neymar or Kardashians. Or Tony Pulis.

After game: Ok, We won. It is because of individual performance.

People need to relax and give or manager and staff some credit.

Honestly this place is goal after a game :lol:



People are like robots. Getting zero joy, float between we got the worse players alive, to worse manager, to worse coaches.......to keep winning.......hard to nail down what the problems are, but it is funny.


All I know we are hard to beat and the spirit is great. Must be individual brillance people keep telling me :lol:
 

Van Piorsing

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International break, injuries and bit of mental block, unblocked in time by patience... and patience can be coached, btw.

That Cavani sub changed the game, no matter how bad we were in the 1st half.
 

Ole's screen

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Really ? I honestly think the answer is really easy. Yes, we're not really a well coached team at all. We don't play a fully good 90 minutes. However we have a lot of quality and in fairness, Ole plays most of them in their best position so we're bound to win more often than not. Good luck challenging or winning a major title like league or CL with this general play though. It just won't happen, period.
Most teams even the best ones very rarely play a full 90 minutes well.
 

Sylar

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So after 30 games in the league, and 70+ pages and 3k posts in this thread, do we have an answer to the question if we are an awfully coached team or not?

I'm not sure if I can answer question after watching us play this season.

But what I can say for certain is that we are very inconsistent..that much is clear at least.
So I guess it depends on what you were expecting before the season started maybe

If we were expecting a title win then we are under performing and need a better manager right now

If we are on par, then we need a few better players to compete with City

If we are over performing, then the team needs half a team worth of players

I think were coached well. There comes a time when awb (for example) keeps making the same mistake that you have to put it on the player for not learning or get a new player in
 

big rons sovereign

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Last two years.

Before game: We are awful and every manager is better then ours.

During game: Sack him. Sack manager. Buy Neymar or Kardashians. Or Tony Pulis.

After game: Ok, We won. It is because of individual performance.

People need to relax and give or manager and staff some credit.
Get Tony Pulis in to beat the Kardashians with a stick in the centre circle as half time entertainment.
That'd be worth the entry fee alone.
 

Ole's screen

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How refreshing is it by the way to see us chasing goals calmly by playing our way through teams and not randomly lumping it to Fellaini via Young/Blind in the LvG/Jose days? That itself speaks so much about the coaching. Its not always about telling players on where to be where and "being the brains" in their heads, its also about teaching them how to play in game situations and not lose composure and faith in their skills when the pressure is on like we have tended to do since the SAF days most of all.
 

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Well said. If anyone thinks the management/coaching staff are getting anything close to the maximum out of these players they are deluded.

We have a good squad which needs a few more to really challenge - a better coaching team would be the biggest difference maker though you only have to watch all the games this season sometimes they don't know what to do out there.
When I see us lining up with the same old 4231 when oppo teams start with no striker, or seeing Maguire building up from the centre at the back vs. Leicester, not even using the keeper, it makes me wonder what is actually going on sometimes.

I strongly believe we've actually got a very good squad. It's just we rarely see them playing to their potential, due to lacklustre coaching. Could we not have used van de Beek more often, deeper this season for instance? We've been winning many matches comfortably and Bruno has still played the full 90. If we rotated the squad more, maybe we wouldn't have been so dead on our feet vs. Leicester. It's things like that, that frustrate me the most I find.
 

Reapersoul20

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Last two years.

Before game: We are awful and every manager is better then ours.

During game: Sack him. Sack manager. Buy Neymar or Kardashians. Or Tony Pulis.

After game: Ok, We won. It is because of individual performance.

People need to relax and give or manager and staff some credit.

Spot on.
 

united_99

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We will never score 2 goals against B&H.
Never! You also predicted a couple of weeks ago that we wouldn’t win against Brighton and Spurs would overtake us in the top 4 race. Maybe stop making United related predictions?
 

Mickson

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If we had Brighton's players and they had our players, they would tear us apart. I guess that says something. They are better coached, but we have quality that they lack, hence why we won in the end.
 

432JuanMata

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If we had Brighton's players and they had our players, they would tear us apart. I guess that says something. They are better coached, but we have quality that they lack, hence why we won in the end.
Too be fair that is nothing on Ole even if that was true. It’s the reason Porter gets loads of praise yet Brighton are no better off since he’s been there. They are the only team where expected goals and expected conceded would bring them up more than 2 places. They would be 6th if it based on that.

They play well but lack the finishing they are a good side
 

tomaldinho1

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If we had Brighton's players and they had our players, they would tear us apart. I guess that says something. They are better coached, but we have quality that they lack, hence why we won in the end.
Be interesting to see any dispute this in fairness.
 

Majima

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Last two years.

Before game: We are awful and every manager is better then ours.

During game: Sack him. Sack manager. Buy Neymar or Kardashians. Or Tony Pulis.

After game: Ok, We won. It is because of individual performance.

People need to relax and give or manager and staff some credit.
We do have some highly talented individual players who are capable of winning any matches regardless of circumstances. He's getting no credit from me for that. Congrats to the players for finding a way to win. The actual performance was horrible. We was outplayed for the majority, Brighton deserved at least a point.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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Really ? I honestly think the answer is really easy. Yes, we're not really a well coached team at all. We don't play a fully good 90 minutes. However we have a lot of quality and in fairness, Ole plays most of them in their best position so we're bound to win more often than not. Good luck challenging or winning a major title like league or CL with this general play though. It just won't happen, period.

Honestly I can't agree or disagree with what you said but I understand where you're coming from,

For me personally, I've seen us win and perform strongly, I've seen us play terribly and win, or drop points, I've seen us play terribly and lose badly too.

I mean we smashed RBL, we smashed Southampton, beat PSG in Paris, and we did a number on City recently, and plenty of teams we've beaten in the league with good performances (not strong though) hence we sit comfortably in 2nd.

and then we lost to SHU, Palace, smashed by Spurs, lost to PSG at home and then beaten by RBL and crash out of UCL group stages.

This is a team that's extremely inconsistent and you don't know what you'll get on any given day.
 

Leftback99

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Everyone is running on fumes right now, which is why we make so many basic, personal errors.
Ignoring the deficiences in our squad there probably isn't a team that has had less time to rest, prepare and work on things since September (after next to no preseason). It's been relentless games every 3 days. It's all about getting over the line.

Brighton have had two clear weeks to get ready for this game with a large part of their squad.
 

el3mel

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Honestly I can't agree or disagree with what you said but I understand where you're coming from,

For me personally, I've seen us win and perform strongly, I've seen us play terribly and win, or drop points, I've seen us play terribly and lose badly too.

I mean we smashed RBL, we smashed Southampton, beat PSG in Paris, and we did a number on City recently, and plenty of teams we've beaten in the league with good performances (not strong though) hence we sit comfortably in 2nd.

and then we lost to SHU, Palace, smashed by Spurs, lost to PSG at home and then beaten by RBL and crash out of UCL group stages.

This is a team that's extremely inconsistent and you don't know what you'll get on any given day.
I don't disagree there're some matches in which we put on great performance and showed we're capable of being a class team. The problem is these matches seem to me like the exception rather than being the rule, while the majority of matches we have general awful play and barely scrap wins.

I just feel like we don't have a system of play at all. Our general play really needs to improve imo.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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So I guess it depends on what you were expecting before the season started maybe

If we were expecting a title win then we are under performing and need a better manager right now

If we are on par, then we need a few better players to compete with City

If we are over performing, then the team needs half a team worth of players

I think were coached well. There comes a time when awb (for example) keeps making the same mistake that you have to put it on the player for not learning or get a new player in
If I am honest, I didn't expect Liverpool to drop off this badly, and I thought Chelsea could have done much better than what they are doing now, before the season started I hoped that we should be comfortable in top 4 and not far off from the likes of City and Liverpool who I expected would go head to head for the title and maybe us and Chelsea chasing them from afar, so for now and league wise I would say I am fairly happy where we are now.

But if we just look at games in isolation, not only we are inconsistent across games, we are inconsistent within the game sometimes, we will play terribly 1st half and come out in the 2nd half another team and turn it around, so I can't tell is the inconsistency caused by awful coaching? Injuries? Bad form of players? Lack of quality in certain areas? What is it exactly that makes us so inconsistent.
 

Glideman

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I’m confused, if we are so bad how are we second? Especially if when there are key areas to improve on? I guess it’s luck right...
 

Bobcat

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We do have some highly talented individual players who are capable of winning any matches regardless of circumstances. He's getting no credit from me for that. Congrats to the players for finding a way to win. The actual performance was horrible. We was outplayed for the majority, Brighton deserved at least a point.
But how do you separate whats "individual ability" and whats not? Like the two goals we scored today, not exactly highlight reel goals. Pogbas feck up that lead to 0-1, was that a coaching issue?

I agree that we can probably improve as a collective, but i cant really think of any players who have played at a much higher level under a different coaching team
 

OmarUnited4ever

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I don't disagree there're some matches in which we put on great performance and showed we're capable of being a class team. The problem is these matches seem to me like the exception rather than being the rule, while the majority of matches we have general awful play and barely scrap wins.

I just feel like we don't have a system of play at all. Our general play really needs to improve imo.
Indeed, far too many times our general play isnt that good, that much is obvious at least and it could excused few times but not acceptable if it keeps on going.
 

Number TwentyFive

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But if we just look at games in isolation, not only we are inconsistent across games, we are inconsistent within the game sometimes, we will play terribly 1st half and come out in the 2nd half another team and turn it around, so I can't tell is the inconsistency caused by awful coaching? Injuries? Bad form of players? Lack of quality in certain areas? What is it exactly that makes us so inconsistent.
If someone knows the answer to that question, he or she will be a very rich person. Until someone find that answer I would guess that the lack of leaders with a strong will to win and winning mentality is some of the answer. In the squad right now there is only one of those and that is Bruno. Maguire might be the captain and a leader in someways, but look back at the last league winning team. They were mentality monsters. Do Maguire have the mentality of Vididc and Ferdinand? Some of the players in that squad wasn't the best inidvidually, but their winning mentality was extraordinary. Rafael at right back not the best like AWB, but mentalityvice he was by far better than AWB. Compare Evra to Shaw and it is the same. Then it was Giggs and Scholes who were way over the top, but the mentality was to win. Compare their mentality to Pogbas, it is a big difference.

I could have mentioned more, but my view this squad don't have enough of the players with the correct mentality.
 

Flexdegea

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People keep talking about individual brillance.


Are main problem is individual mistakes. Every game so many players not being able to do the basics...................


Obviously I'm being sarcastic here but it sounds actually more realistic than the brillance point we keep hearing, as the 2 goals tonight highlight reel goals. Was just pressure up front got the break and 2nd was as scrapy as you get
 

Dookingham United

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Another Fellaini you mean?

Will we get Moyes back too for 100 crosses a match?
Ya, try hiring first class coaches with experience and a vision, not "hey you played here, we won't need to get you a new key card...you can be our technical director"
 

Rossa

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If we had Brighton's players and they had our players, they would tear us apart. I guess that says something. They are better coached, but we have quality that they lack, hence why we won in the end.
And if the flat Earth Theory was true, and Trump was a good president, for North Korea.

it wouldn’t be the first time smaller teams have a well functioning tactic, but said manager is not able to make a stronger team perform. There’s so much to it, such as managing and coaching much bigger egos.
 

Abraxas

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How does one separate individual brilliance and coaching through actions on a football pitch? That doesn't seem trivial to me. If you fail to consider this in some detail and are perhaps of a particular persuasion then the danger is every bad result or action is indicative of poor coaching and every good result or action shows individual brilliance.

Or if you're a fan of Ralph Hasenhuttl for example, every bad action and result is because of the ineptitude of mid table players and cannot possibly be a function of the manager's limitations no matter how shambolic, however perceived over performance is superb coaching.

There is also the difficulty that consistently applied individual brilliance must in some way be a function of the manager's ability to get the best out of the players. Similarly, Pep has recently pointed out the obvious, that achieving the degree of technical precision that he has (indicating good coaching) is only possible with brilliant individuals.

You then also have to outline what exactly the representation of brilliant coaching is on a football pitch from a fans perspective. That isn't necessarily an objective measurement. Is it tapping the ball in after a 30 pass move? Is it quick incisive passing around the opponent's box? Is it a brilliant counter? Is it positional or possession based domination? Is it simply winning football matches or improving players? Because depending on preferences, a pretty convincing argument can be made for the manager in some of these aspects.
 

Mickson

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And if the flat Earth Theory was true, and Trump was a good president, for North Korea.

it wouldn’t be the first time smaller teams have a well functioning tactic, but said manager is not able to make a stronger team perform. There’s so much to it, such as managing and coaching much bigger egos.
Yeah I'm sure they would protest and throw bottles at each other if Ole forced them to play like Brighton. We should just stop making excuses. Ole is a decent manager (and man-manager especially) but it's clear to see that Potter is a better coach. His team is better coached.
 

OrcaFat

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I find most of the arguments in this thread ludicrous. But each to their own.

I have two criteria:

1. Points gained over a long period.

2. My personal enjoyment watching the games.

I have Ole at about 8/10 on both of these measures. Still feel he can take us up a couple more notches, surely. But for me, we are fully on track.
 

NZT-One

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How does one separate individual brilliance and coaching through actions on a football pitch? That doesn't seem trivial to me. If you fail to consider this in some detail and are perhaps of a particular persuasion then the danger is every bad result or action is indicative of poor coaching and every good result or action shows individual brilliance.

Or if you're a fan of Ralph Hasenhuttl for example, every bad action and result is because of the ineptitude of mid table players and cannot possibly be a function of the manager's limitations no matter how shambolic, however perceived over performance is superb coaching.

There is also the difficulty that consistently applied individual brilliance must in some way be a function of the manager's ability to get the best out of the players. Similarly, Pep has recently pointed out the obvious, that achieving the degree of technical precision that he has (indicating good coaching) is only possible with brilliant individuals.

You then also have to outline what exactly the representation of brilliant coaching is on a football pitch from a fans perspective. That isn't necessarily an objective measurement. Is it tapping the ball in after a 30 pass move? Is it quick incisive passing around the opponent's box? Is it a brilliant counter? Is it positional or possession based domination? Is it simply winning football matches or improving players? Because depending on preferences, a pretty convincing argument can be made for the manager in some of these aspects.
There is certainly something in there. Within my very first post I pointed out, that the whole question will never be answered as long as the the terms "awfully" and "coached" aren't defined.

Nevertheless, I think, it certainly is possibly to see a few aspects that surely are down to coaching. A repeated issue defending set pieces would at some point become a coaching issue. A lack of movement over several games (many) games becomes a coaching issue. A suboptimal use of the space of the pitch the same.

So I agree, some posts sound like everything is down coaching which certainly isn't the case but as soon as clear individual issues become a pattern, it becomes a coaching issue due to the "supposed wish" to stop the issue.

Yeah I'm sure they would protest and throw bottles at each other if Ole forced them to play like Brighton. We should just stop making excuses. Ole is a decent manager (and man-manager especially) but it's clear to see that Potter is a better coach. His team is better coached.
I agree but I am sure the use of the word "better" will provoke overreactions. So far I know two things: a) Brighton played good stuff despite the lack of awesome players in the team so there must be some sort of factor to enable them and b) a good result is a good result but it doesn't transform a mostly solid performance into a good one. We were good in 2nd half but we were abysmal in the 1st. We could have conceded a pen quite easily, so the result tells a story but certainly not the whole story.
 

Real Name

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So if our 2nd position is all down to players individual brilliance and other teams being bad combination we have a brilliant, brilliant team? Team which wins on their own despite the awful coaching or no coaching at all.

God forbid to give any, even the smallest credit to the coaching stuff and to think our position is a combination of individual brilliant and coaching which isn't 'awfully bad'.
 

Abraxas

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There is certainly something in there. Within my very first post I pointed out, that the whole question will never be answered as long as the the terms "awfully" and "coached" aren't defined.

Nevertheless, I think, it certainly is possibly to see a few aspects that surely are down to coaching. A repeated issue defending set pieces would at some point become a coaching issue. A lack of movement over several games (many) games becomes a coaching issue. A suboptimal use of the space of the pitch the same.

So I agree, some posts sound like everything is down coaching which certainly isn't the case but as soon as clear individual issues become a pattern, it becomes a coaching issue due to the "supposed wish" to stop the issue.



I agree but I am sure the use of the word "better" will provoke overreactions. So far I know two things: a) Brighton played good stuff despite the lack of awesome players in the team so there must be some sort of factor to enable them and b) a good result is a good result but it doesn't transform a mostly solid performance into a good one. We were good in 2nd half but we were abysmal in the 1st. We could have conceded a pen quite easily, so the result tells a story but certainly not the whole story.
Yes, I would think set pieces have all fans watching from behind the sofa. However there's a definite individual element to that too of course. There is possibly no coincidence in the fact we are neither a massive threat in the opposition box nor particularly decisive in our own. We very much rely on Harry Maguire in both. Well, one man can't mark every area or opposition threat, of course. Against a team like Brighton, and possibly many others, how many individual matchups do you like the look of?

That said, I don't wish to absolve the coaching system of all responsibility as the defending side should have a massive advantage no matter what the matchups. The Everton one was a clear blunder in terms of set-up and there have been others. How much of that is management and how much decision making on the pitch is hard to say but ultimately the result is the same, clearer thinking was needed. Also, some of our zonal marking does appear to cause the odd issue, but the alternative of man marking doesn't look that appealing, I would think the idea is to defend key areas with our (few) strong aerial presences.

I agree, the movement is an issue. I do think the management is very much aware of this judging from what we can hear on TV these days. Whether that is something they could and should have improved..possibly, probably. There is some kind of disconnect between the runs being made, the forwards expectation of passes forward from our defence and midfield and also the frequency and types of runs being made. However, as usual it's not such a black and white thing either because Martial has struggled his whole career with this, and Greenwood is still very young and learning, and Bruno is a very clear exception in his ability to consistently find space. So again it's back to coaching v individuals.