We are so fecked! (Knee-Jerk Overload)

[Foxbatt]

We are fecked and as a marquee signing we will sign Fellaini at the last minute from Shandong Luneng and will be parachuted down to OT and hopefully land on top of Woodward and get him incapacitated so that he cannot create any more trouble for Manchester United.

 

[AshRK]

I have very little expectation going into the next season, but that could also be good. Maybe we might surprise everyone for a change and start doing something good. Those saying we will be outside top 10 are just making knee jerk reactions.

 

[MUFC OK]

Lukaku money
Pogba money
That '100m' we had left over last season
This years budget.

Really, if we're a club with ambition, we should be able to spend around 350-400m or so. Not that I see it happening, but things could look good if we recruit well.
Names circulating fill me with some confidence this season at least. I see Ole being the potential problem

If you think we are getting all of that for player recruitment, I'd respectfully suggest you are living in cloud cuckoo land. We will not spend more than £200m regardless in my opinion; James £18m, Maguire £70m, AWB £50m, Longstaff £25m, Tielemens £40m.

 

[Josep Dowling]

If you think we are getting all of that for player recruitment, I'd respectfully suggest you are living in cloud cuckoo land. We will not spend more than £200m regardless in my opinion; James £18m, Maguire £70m, AWB £50m, Longstaff £25m, Tielemens £40m.

And I would suggest on AWB would make us a better team amongst that lot.

 

[InspiRED]

Don't really get the people getting triggered that someone's made a thread pointing out the obvious.

The warning signs and red flags are plainly apparent. I wouldn't be surprised to finish 8th to 10th next season. It really does seem to mirror Pool's demise. Like watching a train crash in slow motion.

It's down to a complete failure of ownership and management. Was probably going to happen sooner or later though, empires don't last forever. We'll bounce back eventually and even if it does get bad at least we might get rid of the appalling ownership. It's just a new dark chapter in the fascinating saga, but I think this period is just beginning.

 

[Adcuth]

but it doesnt work like that does it , would be nice if it did

It does when your club is ran as a FOOTBALL CLUB. Manchester Utd is not ran with the football and goals of a proper football team as the main objectives. The reason we have so many "marquee" signings on high wages is for the promotional aspect of that signing. I wouldn't be surprised to see some type of high paying Welsh sponsor be announced soon since we have just signed one of the Welsh national teams most promising players. The problem simply lies with owners who know absolutely ZERO about our club, it's history or even the history of football in England.

I've seen so many posts over the years praising Ed Woodward for the sponsorship deals he has sorted out, that's literally all he has done. But ask yourself why, he's a banker by trade, so is his right hand man (these two guys are responsible for transfers currently). Now ask what bankers are best at......making money at the expense of absolutely anything not connected to their boss.

Now here's the crucial part, ask yourself as fans of this club, are the owners of this club actually connected to it on a FOOTBALL level.......if you believe so then you're deluded and know jack shit about how this club should and has been ran in the past.

People can moan about signings and players for the next 10 years but the plain fact is that unless the owners and executives actually give a shit about the football aspect of a FOOTBALL CLUB then nothing will ever change. It's about time people realises that our club is now a tool for a few greedy yanks to make money off, and they've got the greediest type of people (bankers) to help them do it.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Don't really get the people getting triggered that someone's made a thread pointing out the obvious.

The warning signs and red flags are plainly apparent. I wouldn't be surprised to finish 8th to 10th next season. It really does seem to mirror Pool's demise. Like watching a train crash in slow motion.

It's down to a complete failure of ownership and management. Was probably going to happen sooner or later though, empires don't last forever. We'll bounce back eventually and even if it does get bad at least we might get rid of the appalling ownership. It's just a new dark chapter in the fascinating saga, but I think this period is just beginning.

This is how I see it, and why I find it all so interesting. The club isn’t going anywhere so a steep decline will make for tremendous storylines.

 

[Shakesy]

Manchester United + €200 million ≥ Chelsea + €0 - Hazard. (I'm being generous here. Surely it should be >)

Manchester United + €200 million > Arsenal + €40 million.

So, 1st and 2nd will be City/Liverpool.
3rd will be Spurs.
4th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea
5th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea
6th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea/Arsenal
7th will be A.N.other/Arsenal

Most likely fourth, maybe fifth, with a small chance of 6th? Granted, we've gone backwards (and yes, I get it - it's unacceptable for United), but I don't think it warrants this insane overreaction.

Can someone please sell me some PANIC? I'm in short supply this time of year.

 

[frookydinho]

Im joing the panic train. All the links and talk isn't very positive. We need to improve and to do so we need 4/5 first team players who can come in and slowly improve us then next year add a similar amount while getting rid of all the waste. At the moment its not very encouraging. I am very worried we are going to see alot of the same turds running around representing our club next season

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Manchester United + €200 million ≥ Chelsea + €0 - Hazard. (I'm being generous here. Surely it should be >)

Manchester United + €200 million > Arsenal + €40 million.

So, 1st and 2nd will be City/Liverpool.
3rd will be Spurs.
4th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea
5th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea
6th will be A.N.other/United/Chelsea/Arsenal
7th will be A.N.other/Arsenal

Most likely fourth, maybe fifth, with a small chance of 6th? Granted, we've gone backwards (and yes, I get it - it's unacceptable for United), but I don't think it warrants this insane overreaction.

Can someone please sell me some PANIC? I'm in short supply this time of year.

If we spend 200M and don’t lose anymore key players then top 4 does feel pretty safe. If we lose Pogba, Lukaku, De Gea on top of Herrera and only spend 200M then I think we’re in a battle for top 6. I don’t rate all of them super highly but they are probably the four most capable senior players in the squad.

From March 1 (excluding Barcelona matches):
WLWLWLLLDDL

3 wins, 2 draws, 6 defeats

We can go back to January to flip that all we want, but that is our most recent form with this squad under this manager. Definitely anxious to see how he gets them flying again with that in everyone’s recent memory.

 

[Irwin99]

There is a weird sense of inevitability and deja vu. I just don't have any faith that Jones, Smalling, Matic, Lingard, Young, Mata will be gone anytime soon or that Martial or Rashford will have a breakthrough season (that's not to say they're bad but I think they will remain as inconsistent as they were last season). Our best hope is that Chelsea and Arsenal start to slide with their own problems and the ones outside the top 6 like Everton, Wolves, Leicester don't improve further.

 

[BringKlebersonBack]

I think there may be a disconnect between what the fans think Solskjaer has been hired to do, and what he has actually been told to do.

Realistically, the club can only sign 2/3 players in this window. We are not attractive to top-level players anymore, and we are now focusing on 21-24 year olds, with clear potential. The idea is to slowly build and improve the squad, whilst moving out the older players, for a fee. While this is taking place, it’s obvious the club want Solskjaer to, at the most, reach 4th. Solskjaer is here to try to steady the ship, and attempt to keep us competing for 4th, while Ed Woodward slowly changes the profile of the squad. The big hope is that he keeps us at 4th.

It will take at least 2/3 years to move Rojo, Darmian, Smalling, Jones, Matic, Fred, Perriera, Sanchez, Lukaku etc out. So, we should not expect a “clearout” - it’s simply impossible to sell so many assets at once. Taken in this light, the club moving to sign up assets to longer contracts makes total sense - it’s the only way to try to ensure the player retains some value when we come to sell him.

We have 3-5 very hard years ahead of us.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

We've been so silent this summer and now Mata gets a new 3 year deal. All I can think of is that scene in Dumb & Dumber when Harry hands over their last $20, says "only buy the essentials" and Lloyd comes back with two crates of beer, a sombrero and one of those paddles with a bouncy ball tied to it.

 

[pocco]

I think there may be a disconnect between what the fans think Solskjaer has been hired to do, and what he has actually been told to do.

Realistically, the club can only sign 2/3 players in this window. We are not attractive to top-level players anymore, and we are now focusing on 21-24 year olds, with clear potential. The idea is to slowly build and improve the squad, whilst moving out the older players, for a fee. While this is taking place, it’s obvious the club want Solskjaer to, at the most, reach 4th. Solskjaer is here to try to steady the ship, and attempt to keep us competing for 4th, while Ed Woodward slowly changes the profile of the squad. The big hope is that he keeps us at 4th.

It will take at least 2/3 years to move Rojo, Darmian, Smalling, Jones, Matic, Fred, Perriera, Sanchez, Lukaku etc out. So, we should not expect a “clearout” - it’s simply impossible to sell so many assets at once. Taken in this light, the club moving to sign up assets to longer contracts makes total sense - it’s the only way to try to ensure the player retains some value when we come to sell him.

We have 3-5 very hard years ahead of us.

This squad...it's not finishing in the top 4 next season. We'll bring in a couple more players, probably defenders, and would continue to be horrendous next season in attack. Honestly, I'm very worried about next season. I also can't see Solskjaer lasting past November at this rate.

People will say that there's still plenty of time in the window but recent history suggests that we will struggle to get things done, especially since it now looks like there was no plan afterall. Not only that, but we're the worst proposition for a player right now then I've ever known in my lifetime.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

While not entirely likely, there exists as good a possibility in 30 years that we finish outside top 10. The way we finished the season cannot just be swept under the rug. It was pitiful. Daniel James, Harry Maguire and AWB arent turning that around.

 

[Shakesy]

While not entirely likely, there exists as good a possibility in 30 years that we finish outside top 10. The way we finished the season cannot just be swept under the rug. It was pitiful. Daniel James, Harry Maguire and AWB arent turning that around.

We had a dreadful end to the season, for sure.
So did Arsenal and Spurs.

The difference between us and them is that we have 200M to spend.

Oh, and Chelsea might have Lampard to complement their transfer ban. Right now I am convinced we will finish in the top 4, which in turn will increase our pulling power.

Have no fear! The football ain't gonna be pretty, but it'll be less pitiful than that of most rivals!

It sucks hoping for fourth. But hey! Cyclical and all that.

 

[Denis79]

Honestly believe we'll have a similar season like this one, I've made peace with it. Just hoping we buy some proper prospects for the future.

 

[Fergies Formula]

We had a dreadful end to the season, for sure.
So did Arsenal and Spurs.

The difference between us and them is that we have 200M to spend.

Oh, and Chelsea might have Lampard to complement their transfer ban. Right now I am convinced we will finish in the top 4, which in turn will increase our pulling power.

Have no fear! The football ain't gonna be pretty, but it'll be less pitiful than that of most rivals!

It sucks hoping for fourth. But hey! Cyclical and all that.

You are deluding yourself. I echo the negative sentiments that are being discussed. The club is in free fall.

If there was going to be any positive change we would have identified our targets and got our signings done early to clearly show our intentions and not be haggling on the cost. Unfortunately it’s like ground hog day and whilst we hope; the reality is there in front of us. We probably will make either 1 or 2 more signings who will be underwhelming and we maybe even lose Pogba lukaku and de Gea without reinvesting those funds.

The future is Bleak, the future is united.

 

[Denis79]

You are deluding yourself. I echo the negative sentiments that are being discussed. The club is in free fall.

If there was going to be any positive change we would have identified our targets and got our signings done early to clearly show our intentions and not be haggling on the cost. Unfortunately it’s like ground hog day and whilst we hope; the reality is there in front of us. We probably will make either 1 or 2 more signings who will be underwhelming and we maybe even lose Pogba lukaku and de Gea without reinvesting those funds.

The future is Bleak, the future is united.

We were never going to invest 400M, it's all about profit for our owners.

 

[SAFMUTD]

All people feeling top 4 is safe just because chelsea has transfer ban and arsenal only got 40 millions are going to get pretty mad during the season.

I dont think Ole will make it until january, the players clearly don’t have faith in him nor the project. De Gea, Pogba and Lukaku want to leave even if they stay they won't be fully commited. This is a car accident just waiting to happen.

 

[Shakesy]

You are deluding yourself. I echo the negative sentiments that are being discussed. The club is in free fall.

If there was going to be any positive change we would have identified our targets and got our signings done early to clearly show our intentions and not be haggling on the cost. Unfortunately it’s like ground hog day and whilst we hope; the reality is there in front of us. We probably will make either 1 or 2 more signings who will be underwhelming and we maybe even lose Pogba lukaku and de Gea without reinvesting those funds.

The future is Bleak, the future is united.

That sounds like a great movie slogan.

The Battle for Fourth
The future is bleak, the future is United

At the risk of repeating myself - I am pessimistic about United's immediate future, but I am MORE pessimistic about the chances of some of the others. In fact, I am hopeful that we timed our train smash to perfection.

 

[Fergies Formula]

Put it this way, we finished 6th, we will be even worst due to players leaving and lack of investment, I don’t see how you can compute that we will finish higher when we are getting worse and teams around us will improve. Even the teams below us with catch up some ground.

 

[Red Devil's Advocate]

Put it this way, we finished 6th, we will be even worst due to players leaving and lack of investment, I don’t see how you can compute that we will finish higher when we are getting worse and teams around us will improve. Even the teams below us with catch up some ground.

Why would we be worse? It it takes another season without Champions League, let's have it. It's a slow purge but is definitely happening.

 

[Shakesy]

Put it this way, we finished 6th, we will be even worst due to players leaving and lack of investment, I don’t see how you can compute that we will finish higher when we are getting worse and teams around us will improve. Even the teams below us with catch up some ground.

What do you mean by "lack of investment"? 200M man. That's not a lack.

And yes, we finished 6th, but we also had Mourinho. Confidence is what it is all about. If a team full of losers play like champions then they will fly! Who says we won't suddenly play with confidence? I'm on the fence, but to say it definitely won't happen, or to condemn us before the season has even started is just foolish.

 

[Red Devil's Advocate]

What do you mean by "lack of investment"? 200M man. That's not a lack.

And yes, we finished 6th, but we also had Mourinho. Confidence is what it is all about. If a team full of losers play like champions then they will fly! Who says we won't suddenly play with confidence? I'm on the fence, but to say it definitely won't happen, or to condemn us before the season has even started is just foolish.

Well you know what's the name of this thread, right?

 

[Fergies Formula]

Fair enough you want to remain optimistic but there is nothing within the organisation to suggest we are on an upwards crest.

We have the following:
- board who don’t align with our footballing aspirations
- inexperienced and unproven manager
- lack of timely investment
- poor squad
- lack of identity
Amongst other things.

Not sure how you can draw from our current state any positive.

 

[Red Devil's Advocate]

Fair enough you want to remain optimistic but there is nothing within the organisation to suggest we are on an upwards crest.

We have the following:
- board who don’t align with our footballing aspirations
- inexperienced and unproven manager
- lack of timely investment
- poor squad
- lack of identity
Amongst other things.

Not sure how you can draw from our current state any positive.

So who would we get from the list of proven managers? We have tried the best ones that were available and it didn't work well.

 

[Fergies Formula]

What do you mean by "lack of investment"? 200M man. That's not a lack.

And yes, we finished 6th, but we also had Mourinho. Confidence is what it is all about. If a team full of losers play like champions then they will fly! Who says we won't suddenly play with confidence? I'm on the fence, but to say it definitely won't happen, or to condemn us before the season has even started is just foolish.

In recent times we have invested in players but with a scatter gun approach, which has been all for nothing because we have a royal mess in front of us, have we invested in the structure of the business, recruitment, facilities etc? It’s chaotic and with Woodward solely in charge, we are doomed.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

So who would we get from the list of proven managers? We have tried the best ones that were available and it didn't work well.

Having a capable manager is not a sufficient condition but it is a necessary condition.

https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Confusion-of-Necessary.html

Just count up the large-scale results of proven vs. non-proven managers and the risk weighted benefit of having a proven manager is clear.

Or stated in another way, the expected return (stats) from a proven manager is higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value .

That's how bookmakers largely price their books.

Your statement is an oft repeated canard around these parts.

 

[Fergies Formula]

So who would we get from the list of proven managers? We have tried the best ones that were available and it didn't work well.

We could have had Poch if we wanted to I believe, there are plenty of managers who are more proven than Solskjaer.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I have zero faith in Ed delivering any success on the football front under his role as CEO. If the past 6/7 years have taught us anything, his ego will cause this club a mighty fall.
We over pay for players and sell them on too cheaply. We gave players who are not of the standard required new contracts ( Jone Smalling Young-Young was possibly our worst player during the last 9 games) and let go of the one who should have been kept on (Herrera-when he got injured we started losing and we will notice when he goes and plays well for whatever team he will be at)
We should clear out all the deadwood and promote the youngsters, Instead of looking at bringing through prospects from the youth team to fill the gaps in the squad we are wiiling to go and spend obscene amounts of money on average English players (Mcguire), why not bring in players from the u21 and let them have a go at cementing a place in the first team? As a fan id rather one of our own youngsters getting a chance than spending millions on overpriced players who probably arent even as good as we think they are. This is something we should have done 6 years ago (filling thr first team of youngsters, if nothing else it would have saved us a lot of money but also every top youngster would be wanting to come to us as theyd know they were in with a fighting chance of getting first team football! I know its all a pipedream and the majority on here would maybe not agree but had we filled the first team with youngsters would we have been that much worse of then we are now?
We are so poorly run from a footballing aspect its actually shocking. Barring a miracle i think Ole wont last longer than a year at which point we will do this all over again. Another sacked manager, another team rebuild, another excuse from those in charge!

 

[Shakesy]

Having a capable manager is not a sufficient condition but it is a necessary condition.

https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Confusion-of-Necessary.html

Just count up the large-scale results of proven vs. non-proven managers and the risk weighted benefit of having a proven manager is clear.

Or stated in another way, the expected return (stats) from a proven manager is higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value .

That's how bookmakers largely price their books.

Your statement is an oft repeated canard around these parts.

I disagree.

Exhibit A = Claudio Ranieri

Proven? Yes and No.
Capable? Yes and No.

I can pull many names out of the hat. A manager is just part of the recipe for success. Some teams can win with Mickey Mouse at the steering wheel. When the team goes on a winning run, how much of that is down to the manager? Did OGS do something different when we hit that rut as opposed to when we were winning?

Anyway, I am aware of the thread title and know this is a place where people can contaminate the fragile hopes of others. Maybe it will do us all some good to lower our expectations to absolute zero.

EDIT - I see the point you made now. Expected return of a proven manager. My bad.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

I disagree.

Exhibit A = Claudio Ranieri

Proven? Yes and No.
Capable? Yes and No.

I can pull many names out of the hat. A manager is just part of the recipe for success. Some teams can win with Mickey Mouse at the steering wheel. When the team goes on a winning run, how much of that is down to the manager? Did OGS do something different when we hit that rut as opposed to when we were winning?

Anyway, I am aware of the thread title and know this is a place where people can contaminate the fragile hopes of others. Maybe it will do us all some good to lower our expectations to absolute zero.

My suggestion was to do this:

"Just count up the large-scale results of proven vs. non-proven managers and the risk weighted benefit of having a proven manager is clear."

One anecdote does not constitute doing this. 10 anecdotes do not.

Why on earth do I have to point this out? Pulling names of a hat is not a rational approach.

Links provided in previous post ...

Next post spare the emotion.

 

[Joeace2020]

I have zero faith in Ed delivering any success on the football front under his role as CEO. If the past 6/7 years have taught us anything, his ego will cause this club a mighty fall.
We over pay for players and sell them on too cheaply. We gave players who are not of the standard required new contracts ( Jone Smalling Young-Young was possibly our worst player during the last 9 games) and let go of the one who should have been kept on (Herrera-when he got injured we started losing and we will notice when he goes and plays well for whatever team he will be at)
We should clear out all the deadwood and promote the youngsters, Instead of looking at bringing through prospects from the youth team to fill the gaps in the squad we are wiiling to go and spend obscene amounts of money on average English players (Mcguire), why not bring in players from the u21 and let them have a go at cementing a place in the first team? As a fan id rather one of our own youngsters getting a chance than spending millions on overpriced players who probably arent even as good as we think they are. This is something we should have done 6 years ago (filling thr first team of youngsters, if nothing else it would have saved us a lot of money but also every top youngster would be wanting to come to us as theyd know they were in with a fighting chance of getting first team football! I know its all a pipedream and the majority on here would maybe not agree but had we filled the first team with youngsters would we have been that much worse of then we are now?
We are so poorly run from a footballing aspect its actually shocking. Barring a miracle i think Ole wont last longer than a year at which point we will do this all over again. Another sacked manager, another team rebuild, another excuse from those in charge!

Are you serious about the youngster thing? Van Gaal littered the team with them. Maybe you should rather say we should never have sacked Van Gaal.

 

[red_de_pologne]

what an underwhelming 'rebuild' this is shaping up to be.. more like transformation into a proper mid table team.

 

[oz insomniac]

Already we are watching the Woody 101 signing skills, when a release clause is available, try and negotiate it down and fail, or alternately try and negotiate the price down when premier league clubs generally have sufficient finance that this is not acceptable, and get left wanting and looking at clubs like Citeh actually signing targets.

Trying to prove you are the smartest person in the room is doomed to failure, and gives what is happening currently credence. The fact that all season tickets are pre sold has condemned us to even more of his idiotic pantomime tactics, football is not his forte or passion and it shows.

Even the most dense spectator would understand that a quick strike close to the top end of available players was needed to pave the way to even a modest rebuild, we have a modest signing which may signal the path we are on, not good so far. Over to you Eddie, see if you can with the assistance of the master wage negotiator actually prove your status at the top of the club ( the Glazers are laughing anyway with the dividends you provide)

 

[BringKlebersonBack]

Having a capable manager is not a sufficient condition but it is a necessary condition.

https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Confusion-of-Necessary.html

Just count up the large-scale results of proven vs. non-proven managers and the risk weighted benefit of having a proven manager is clear.

Or stated in another way, the expected return (stats) from a proven manager is higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value .

That's how bookmakers largely price their books.

Your statement is an oft repeated canard around these parts.

It is quite difficult to argue the benefits of “proven manager”, when most managers actually seem to make little difference to results. I’m not arguing that they make “no difference”, but it is actually rare to find one who is adding value, statistically. So, what would qualify as “proven”? If it is experience, we can easily see from the data that the amount of games a manager has isn’t a strong predictor of success - the wage bill of his squad is (which makes the poor results of our own squad even more galling).

It is actually far easier and more common to employ an overpaid manager, on the basis of his “experience” and then have to get rid of him, once the club does not get the results it mistakenly imagined it would. Solskjaer may well have as much chance of success as other “proven managers” provided there is a excellent management team around him - by which I mean data analysts, performance analysts, coaching staff, and recruitment specialists. “Proven managers” in football are actually easy to find - but there is little evidence that they make much difference consistently. It is management teams that make more of a difference.

This is where we have made most mistakes, as a fan base, and as a club. Our focus on the “great man” theory has blinded us to the importance of collective wisdom and leadership. The much more successful approach would be to assemble a team of specialists, with discrete areas of expertise, and have them function under a manager whose responsibility is to synthesise the information he/she is given, and make decisions about team selections and tactics based on that information. It is a mistake to imagine that there are many managers out there who can recognise their own limitations, but if the club was serious about winning football matches consistently, this would be a more rational approach. Managers simply don’t make enough of a difference consistently, with rare exceptions, for clubs to place all their risk on them. In that limited regard, Solskjaer being appointed makes as much sense as Mourinho.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Im now officially worried..

This club are mugging off the fans here.. Where the actual fck is this rebuild!?

Ole said some of these players had played their last game.. Only person to have left yet is Herrera on his own accord..

Ole said lots of big names want to come here.. Only signing so far Daniel james form a championship side

Fact we start the season with Smalling & Jones again. Fact. Guarantee it. Same sh*t different day

 

[Bestietom]

We are presumably looking at bringing in another 5 players.Can anyone here see Woodward achieving this in this transfer window.

 

[Bruno Marques]

This just looks like last summer but with Ole with is mouth shut like a good lap dog