What would make you change your opinion on Ole

Doracle

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This has been done to the death but do enlighten me about the differences in the landscape of football in 1988 and 2020.
That’s a fair point I think. It’s arguably harder to win matches now, rather than in 1988, given the number of clubs with substantial assets due to TV money/rich owners. Probably a reason to give managers a bit more time when rebuilding.

I’m not particularly “Ole in” by the way. I haven’t completely written him off and feel he’s been unlucky with injuries, but he’ll need to show real improvement for me to think he should be in place for next season. However, it’s obviously a valid point for those who do think he is worth backing to point out that our most successful ever manager didn’t exactly set the world alight in his first years at the club.
 
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RedBanker

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That’s a fair point I think. It’s arguably harder to win matches now, rather than in 1988, given the number of clubs with substantial assets due to TV money/rich owners. Probably a reason to give managers a bit more time when rebuilding.

I’m not particularly “Ole in” by the way. I haven’t completely written him off and feel he’s been unlucky with injuries, but he’ll need to show real improvement for me to think he should be in place for next season. However, it’s obviously a valid point for those who do think he is worth backing to point out that our most successful ever manager didn’t exactly set the world alight in his first years at the club.
You lost me there. So you think that in this modern cut-throat, dog eat dog, dynamic footballing landscape of today we should give non-performing managers "more" time to rebuild?
 

kkengvib

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I'm Ole out.
He would change my mind if:

We played good football consistently
Win more games and go on winning runs that are convincing (no scraping wins)
Ole has the balls to drop players and criticize the team's performance (rather than protecting the players all the time)
Make it to a final this year
Stay in the CL race and come close or get a CL spot this season
 
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This is harsh on @sammsky1 , though I don't get the SAF Ole comparisons as the game is unrecognisable today to how it was then, his start could easily be described as torrid.

SAF took over in November 1986 you were 21st he pulled you back to 11th
After his first summer he bought in 4 players and yes in the 87/88 season made 2nd
His third season was awful bought in 5 players but at Christmas we all thought you'd be relegated, you ended the 89/90 season 13th but you won the FA Cup
90/91 you finished 6th and lost at Anfield 4-0, but won the cup winners cup

This in no way means Ole will come good but calling someone uninformed and suggest someone knows nothing about Utd or Ferguson because they called this torrid is well over the top. I remember united fans at the time who thought SAF was dreadful.
A manager's "start" isn't 4-5 years @The Boy. That's more than 95% of manager's ever stay in a job.

Longer than Conte has ever managed one club, longer than Pep has ever managed one club, and I'm sure there are a feck tonne of other examples.

Fergie's start was excellent, and that was the point, then it wobbled to feck for a while. If you're gonna compare Ole's start, and that's exactly what sammsky did, then expect Ole to quickly and massively improve the situation he took over before giving him all the blind faith in the World.

That's the massive difference here, even taking away the incredible things he did at Aberdeen, Fergie had a terrific start and earned his time and patience. As you mentioned, even is his shittest of seasons he won the F.A Cup and Cup Winners Cup, instilling a winning mentality. There's only one other United manager since SAF who's "start" could be compared to this, and it aint Ole Gunnar.
 

sammsky1

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No-one is pretending anything. Fergie had a great start, not a torrid start as the poster claimed.

The poster isn’t taking a longer term view of that start as he’s comparing him to Ole now, who’s been in the job 14 months.

Fergie’s problems kicked in long after he’d already proven to the club and board what he could do at United with, in large, someone else’s squad.

That’s not even mentioning his career before United.

In short, SAF earned the patience shown to him during 89-90, and hell, even in that shittest of seasons he won the FA Cup which was much more prestigious than it is today. Let’s see if Ole manages that shall we as he’s defo getting the rest of the season to show his worth.
I think you’ve become utterly blinkered through your hatred for our manager. And your need to be right is clouding any sense of objectivity. That’s what I think.

As for my opinions on SAF, I lived through every day of his reign as my support for our club started under Ron Atkinson. Things like win percentage and all this other FM rubbish don’t interest me.

What I know with absolute certaincy is that the team OGS started with this season was far worse than any team under SAF. And I also know our journey back to the top will be incremental and gradual. I don’t need a quick fix to sustain my support for the club.

Maybe OGS is not the right guy, but I cant state that with any certaincy until he gets even close to the kind of teams that LVG or Mourinho were allowed to assemble. He is our manager and I’ll support him until his position is untenable. I don’t think we are close to that right now.
 
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sammsky1

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This is harsh on @sammsky1 , though I don't get the SAF Ole comparisons as the game is unrecognisable today to how it was then, his start could easily be described as torrid.

SAF took over in November 1986 you were 21st he pulled you back to 11th
After his first summer he bought in 4 players and yes in the 87/88 season made 2nd
His third season was awful bought in 5 players but at Christmas we all thought you'd be relegated, you ended the 89/90 season 13th but you won the FA Cup
90/91 you finished 6th and lost at Anfield 4-0, but won the cup winners cup

This in no way means Ole will come good but calling someone uninformed and suggest someone knows nothing about Utd or Ferguson because they called this torrid is well over the top. I remember united fans at the time who thought SAF was dreadful.
Thanks for providing the context to my earlier post. You got it all 100% correct.

Once upon a time, managers were given some time to grow into the job and establish their ideas. And they were not immediately sacked for one season in the wrong direction, like Pochintinho suffered at Spurs. Most importantly, they were backed when they demonstrated incremental progress or made significant and positive changes behind the scenes.

The industry may be totally different now but some things remain the same: certainly that progress is incremental and gradual. SAF's initial 4 years were dramatically inconsistent, up and down the table like a yo-yo. And just like it took SAF a heartbreaking 2nd place to Leeds before he won the league the following season, so Klopp had to endure the frustrations of a 95 point 2nd place before becoming all conquering this season. The same is true of Chelsea and City's rise to eminence.

This is what maddens me about our fanbase regarding Mourinho's 2nd place. In relative terms, it was a fantastic achievement and should have been celebrated. Instead some fans rubbished it as nothing ... and look where we are now.

As you say, none of us know if OGS will come good. Some fans may not like it but now he is in the job, he has to be given the space and time to grow into the job and learn as he goes along. Once the summer transfer window closed, there was universal agreement was this season would be really hard and a write off if we got major injures. Well thats what has happened. Not sure how OGS can navigate that.

From what I've seen so far, he has done a lot of fantastic work behind the scenes, with regards to culture, squad composition, wage bill management, youth development and incoming transfers. All this work will eventually bear fruit. But it requires patience and nerve.

There is no quick fix, and I doubt other manager would do much better with our current resources.
 
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Johnson Yip

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Thanks for providing the context to my earlier post. You got it all 100% correct.

Once upon a time, managers were given some time to grow into the job and establish their ideas. And they were not immediately sacked for one season in the wrong direction, like Pochintinho suffered at Spurs. Most importantly, they were backed when they demonstrated incremental progress or made significant and positive changes behind the scenes.

The industry may be totally different now but somethings remain the same: certainly that progress is incremental and gradual. SAF's initial 4 years were dramatically inconsistent, up and down the table like a yo-yo. And just like it took SAF a heartbreaking 2nd place to Leeds before he won the league the following season, so Klopp had to ensure the frustrations of a 95 point 2nd place before becoming all conquering this season. The same is true of Chelsea and City's rise to eminence.

This is what maddens me about our fanbase regarding Mourinho's 2nd place. In relative terms, it was a fantastic achievement and should have been celebrated. Instead some fans rubbished it as nothing ... and look where we are now.

As you say, none of us know if OGS will come good. Some fans may like it but now he is in the job, he has to be given the space and time to grow into the job and learn as he goes along. Once the summer transfer window closed, there was universal agreement was this season would be really hard and a write off if we got major injures. Well thats what has happened. Not sure how OGS can navigate that.

From what I've seen so far, he has done a lot of fantastic work behind the scenes, with regards to culture, squad composition, wage bill management, youth development and incoming transfers. All this work will eventually bear fruit. But it requires patience and nerve.

There is no quick fix, and I doubt other manager would do much better with our current resources.
One of the best I read here for some time, especially the paragraph about the fans reaction on Mou's 2nd season. We need patience but the fans have none of it.
 

Renegade

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I don’t remember much criticism towards Jose during the 2nd places finish. What did he want? A open bus parade?
He lost a lot of support with his approach to the 3rd season. That summer he went into full sabotage mode and a lot of people could see it from a mile away.
 
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I think you’ve become utterly blinkered through your hatred for our manager. And your need to be right is clouding any sense of objectivity. That’s what I think.

As for my opinions on SAF, I lived through every day of his reign as my support for our club started under Ron Atkinson. Things like win percentage and all this other FM rubbish don’t interest me.

What I know with absolute certaincy is that the team OGS started with this season was far worse than any team under SAF. And I also know our journey back to the top will be incremental and gradual. I don’t need a quick fix to sustain my support for the club.

Maybe OGS is not the right guy, but I cant state that with any certaincy until he gets even close to the kind of teams that LVG or Mourinho were allowed to assemble. He is our manager and I’ll support him until his position is untenable. I don’t think we are close to that right now.
I see The Boy's post gave you some new found confidence on the topic, that's nice.

Although "my hatred of our manager", don't make me laugh man, I love OGS, but I think he's proving to be a pretty terrible manager at the top level of English football, first with Cardiff and now with Manchester United. Calling a spade a spade isn't hate, it's reality.

Win percentage always interests you, because it tells you where you are and where you are going as a club. No-one has ever made top 4 with a sub 40 win-percentage for example.
But hell, if those terms bother you so, let's just say 9 wins in 25 or a miserable 35 points in 25 games.
I'm not sure why win-percentage has anything to do with FM? a game I haven't played since it was called Championship Manager in the 90's, win-percentage has always been around, it's a really simple equation of how many games do you win compared to how many games you play.

How do you know our journey back to the top will be incremental and gradual? When right now it's that incremental in the wrong direction. I mean, I'm fine with incremental and gradual, no-one on here expects us to be wining the league in the next two seasons. Most though would like to see steady improvement, especially with such a novice manager, because the outcome of giving time, without tangible signs of improvement is that we could spend as much as Mourinho (Ole has already spent more in his first year) and be further away from the top than ever since SAF retired.

For whats it's worth though @sammsky1, I agree with you on Mourinho, fans should have seen that as massive progress, I know I did. Mourinho took over a 5th place side and in 2 seasons won the EL and LC, followed by placing 2nd in the league. That was a clear sign of a manager knowing how to build a better side, what we have right now is the complete opposite.

Why didn't fans like it though, or laud it more? Because they felt sorry for Martial, hated Lukaku, Matic and Mourinho's idea of bringing in Willian, add to that many of our fans could simply never take to Mourinho though and you have your answer.
 
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billybee99

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I think you’ve become utterly blinkered through your hatred for our manager. And your need to be right is clouding any sense of objectivity. That’s what I think.

As for my opinions on SAF, I lived through every day of his reign as my support for our club started under Ron Atkinson. Things like win percentage and all this other FM rubbish don’t interest me.

What I know with absolute certaincy is that the team OGS started with this season was far worse than any team under SAF. And I also know our journey back to the top will be incremental and gradual. I don’t need a quick fix to sustain my support for the club.

Maybe OGS is not the right guy, but I cant state that with any certaincy until he gets even close to the kind of teams that LVG or Mourinho were allowed to assemble. He is our manager and I’ll support him until his position is untenable. I don’t think we are close to that right now.
Um...he started with the exact same team as Mourinho. He has made it drastically worse.
 

sunama

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Before the season started, people said United would be mid table without Pogba. And now we´re without Rashford as well...
I remember a thread created, where we listed our predictions for the season.
I stated that we'd finish 8th and this season is a write-off.
I don't believe that anybody predicted as low a finish as I did. Many were predicting top 3. Some even thought that we'd win the title. Basically, I was by far the most pessimistic.

The problem we have is not just Ole (Ole is the worst manager in the EPL), but the rest of the employees of the club. From top to bottom we have people who should not be in their roles.
A new manager can definitely get more out of ths squad, but until a wholesale change takes place, 4th-7th place is realistically what we should expect. Even Jose (elite level manager, serial winner, etc) could get us 'only' 2nd and needed another cash injection to take us closer to 1st (which the board are unwilling to do).

I've long said that while Woodward is here, we will not win the league. I stand by that and believe this now more than ever.
 
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billybee99

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Thanks for providing the context to my earlier post. You got it all 100% correct.

Once upon a time, managers were given some time to grow into the job and establish their ideas. And they were not immediately sacked for one season in the wrong direction, like Pochintinho suffered at Spurs. Most importantly, they were backed when they demonstrated incremental progress or made significant and positive changes behind the scenes.

The industry may be totally different now but somethings remain the same: certainly that progress is incremental and gradual. SAF's initial 4 years were dramatically inconsistent, up and down the table like a yo-yo. And just like it took SAF a heartbreaking 2nd place to Leeds before he won the league the following season, so Klopp had to endure the frustrations of a 95 point 2nd place before becoming all conquering this season. The same is true of Chelsea and City's rise to eminence.

This is what maddens me about our fanbase regarding Mourinho's 2nd place. In relative terms, it was a fantastic achievement and should have been celebrated. Instead some fans rubbished it as nothing ... and look where we are now.

As you say, none of us know if OGS will come good. Some fans may not like it but now he is in the job, he has to be given the space and time to grow into the job and learn as he goes along. Once the summer transfer window closed, there was universal agreement was this season would be really hard and a write off if we got major injures. Well thats what has happened. Not sure how OGS can navigate that.

From what I've seen so far, he has done a lot of fantastic work behind the scenes, with regards to culture, squad composition, wage bill management, youth development and incoming transfers. All this work will eventually bear fruit. But it requires patience and nerve.

There is no quick fix, and I doubt other manager would do much better with our current resources.
Yes, there is no other manager in the world who could do better than Ole. Let's stand behind the man who's guiding us to a 53 point season and 9th place.
 

momo83

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Who said he was a great manager?

I dont know why you are asking about Di Matteo, is that who you would like to see replace Ole? A better option than Poch perhaps as he has actually won something in hos career, Poch hasn't even a sports day medal to his name from school.

I have never said that Ole was the greatest manager ever. I was reaponding to a previous post who claimed that he was the worst manager post Fergie which is untrue. Please re-read
Seems like being intentionally obtuse is the Ole in new tactic... but still too genuinely obtuse to realise certain things, just like with those that tried changing the history of Klopp recently. Here is why I mentioned Di Matteo


He is the manager with the best ever start as Man United manager. Ever. The only manager in the history of football to over turn a 2-0 home defeat in the champions league. Ever.
 

sammsky1

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Yes, there is no other manager in the world who could do better than Ole. Let's stand behind the man who's guiding us to a 53 point season and 9th place.
You don’t have to do anything. Carry on with whatever it is that you believe.
 

sammsky1

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Um...he started with the exact same team as Mourinho. He has made it drastically worse.
A team built by Mourinho to work under his specific philosophy and tactics.

OGS is trying to play a different way. Requires players with different qualities.

Surely you have the intelligence and nuance to understand this?
 
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RollieOle

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Seems like being intentionally obtuse is the Ole in new tactic... but still too genuinely obtuse to realise certain things, just like with those that tried changing the history of Klopp recently. Here is why I mentioned Di Matteo
Taking the quote completely out of context. I mentioned those factual things in relation to a coment which said Ole was the worst manager we had post Fergie. He is not. He is also not the greatest manager alive.

Who do you think should take over the team? Who would do a better job with this crop of players?
 

Josep Dowling

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I remember a thread created, where we listed our predictions for the season.
I stated that we'd finish 8th and this season is a write-off.
I don't believe that anybody predicted as low a finish as I did
. Basically, I was the most pessimistic.

The problem we have is not just Ole (Ole is the worst manager in the EPL), but the rest of the employees of the club. From top to bottom we have people who should not be in their roles.
A new manager can definitely get more out of ths squad, but until a wholesale change takes place, 4th-7th place is realistically what we should expect. Even Jose (elite level manager, serial winner, etc) could get us 'only' 2nd and needed another cash injection to take us closer to 1st (which the board are unwilling to do).

I've long said that while Woodward is here, we will not win the league. I stand by that and believe this now more than ever.
A lot of fans said midtable. I know I certainly did. Once we got rid of Sanchez after the window closed I knew we didn't have enough numbers upfront to rotate. I can't believe the management and doctors wouldn't have realised this as well. Even if we had no European football it would have been a struggle.
 
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A team built by Mourinho to work under his specific philosophy and tactics.

OGS is trying to play a different way. Requires players with different qualities.

Surely you have the intelligence and nuance to understand this?
It's such a daft argument though, every new manager of a club would love 10 of his own new players, but rightfully they should win the time to buy that much. You can make things work with other manager's players too, whilst steadily improving your squad. That's pretty much what every successful manager has to do, it's what Poch did at Spurs, Klopp at Liverpool.

You think Frank Lampard wouldn't have loved 10 new players also this season?

There's no excuse in the World where you spend €159m and get worse, as I mentioned in another thread, Klopp sold more deadwood in his first Summer, and spent less than half of what Ole did (after Jan it's now almost 1/3), yet improved them immensely.
 

sunama

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You lost me there. So you think that in this modern cut-throat, dog eat dog, dynamic footballing landscape of today we should give non-performing managers "more" time to rebuild?
:lol:

When you put it this way, it really does go to show the lunacy in the argument, that Ole should be given a chance to build a team of his own.
Whichever way you look at it, it makes no logical sense.
 

sunama

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A lot of fans said midtable. I know I certainly did. Once we got rid of Sanchez after the window closed I knew we didn't have enough numbers upfront to rotate. I can't believe the management and doctors wouldn't have realised this as well. Even if we had no European football it would have been a struggle.
And that right there is why we are failing.
When you and I can spot this...why on Earth could the people who paid a lot of money, not have come to the same conclusion?

The Ole supporters will say that the club officials know better than us, but I don't think they do. They also claim that there is some cunning master plan in progress - I don't think there is.

The club is rotten to the core and needs to be gutted. After a change in regime, all employees should re-apply for their jobs and if they fail to satisfy the criteria, the job vacancy should be advertised externally. I know this is extremely harsh, but I can't see any other way to change our fortunes.

A DoF who consistently makes the wrong decisions and has seen us make steady regression down the league table. His latest plan has seen us hit rock bottom, with a league ranking lower than it was under David Moyes, who was sacked.
A contract negotiator who consistently gives the highest wages to players who are not fit to wear the shirt and that no other club in the World would pay.
A manager who no other EPL or (probably) Championship team would hire.
Coaches who have known nothing but failure since being appointed to first team operations.
Scouts who have failed to unearth a "gem" in several years.
Sports doctors who are unable to identify a player who is becoming overweight, which is directly affecting his performance on the pitch.
Players who find it acceptable to lose to teams at the bottom of the league and shrug their shoulders when they do, then following it up with another poor performance in the next game.

The list goes on.
 

momo83

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Erm: that’s exactly what he did!

And SAF has a torrid time to start with at the club.

I’m not saying OGS will defo replicate any of SAFs success but the start points and initial troubles are similar.
Utter nonsense. Are you intentionally deceiving people or do you just don’t know what you’re talking about?

First full season finished second. Second season finished 11th or 12th BUT in February was title challengers then just went on shit run of form. 3rd season was a disaster too old drunks.

Point is it wasn’t torrid, it wasn’t a failure and in each of his first 2 full seasons he showed a reason to be given more time. Maybe the 3rd season is the one where the club did well not to panic. Maybe the 3rd season is the one where the board could have thought he’s done the best he can and reached the end of the road, similar to Mourinho third season. Where we all assume he peaks 1-2 years then declines with no coming back.
 

momo83

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A manager's "start" isn't 4-5 years @The Boy. That's more than 95% of manager's ever stay in a job.
There's only one other United manager since SAF who's "start" could be compared to this, and it aint Ole Gunnar.
Sorry ironic. That all these Ole in clowns try comparing him to SAF but in reality it’s Mourinho whose League stats most resembles SAF early years.
 

el3mel

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A team built by Mourinho to work under his specific philosophy and tactics.

OGS is trying to play a different way. Requires players with different qualities.

Surely you have the intelligence and nuance to understand this?
How many players should he buy first before he can judge him then ? I'm going on with your logic, tell me a number please.
 

Withnail

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How many players should he buy first before he can judge him then ? I'm going on with your logic, tell me a number please.
Ohh I'd say at least 11 so that'll take us up to Sep 2022, City will have just been promoted to the Championship and will still have a better squad than us.
 

sammsky1

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Utter nonsense. Are you intentionally deceiving people or do you just don’t know what you’re talking about?

First full season finished second. Second season finished 11th or 12th BUT in February was title challengers then just went on shit run of form. 3rd season was a disaster too old drunks.

Point is it wasn’t torrid, it wasn’t a failure and in each of his first 2 full seasons he showed a reason to be given more time. Maybe the 3rd season is the one where the club did well not to panic. Maybe the 3rd season is the one where the board could have thought he’s done the best he can and reached the end of the road, similar to Mourinho third season. Where we all assume he peaks 1-2 years then declines with no coming back.
Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about. :rolleyes:

If only I possessed your superior levels of intelligence and acumen.
 

fps

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I'm very much jury out on Ole while not wanting him to be sacked. I believe Man Utd, with City's suspension, have to get Champions League football for next year. Anything else and I believe Pochettino will be brought in and I think that's the right move. All the *progress* at the back end of the season couldn't make up for missing out given how poor all the direct rivals have been - CL qualification is there on a plate for the team that puts a run together and the manager is key to that.
 

gerdm07

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After reading a number post it's clear to me that some of you would rehire Mourinho if given the chance. Amazing.
 

el3mel

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Ive already told you: a few more than the 'deadwood' that he has to sell.

We got rid of 8 first team players post Mourinho. You can do the math.
So 8 more players above the 4 he already bought ?
 

The Boy

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I wouldn't despite how well I think he did all things considered. We need to hire a proven, modern, forward thinking manager that fits the club.
only picking on this post as it is the most recent, there are plenty of others. This thread is about what would change your mind about Ole - if you want to rehash the arguments there’s plenty of threads with hundreds of pages where ins and outs have already made these arguments over and over and over again.
 

sammsky1

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After reading a number post it's clear to me that some of you would rehire Mourinho if given the chance. Amazing.
No I wouldn't rehire him now.

But I will always believe that it was crazy to restrict his transfer desires that summer and build on 2nd place, which made his position untenable and led to his self destruction.
 

OleTheGreat

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I'm not one of those guys who thinks Ole should not continue. In fact i want Poch to take over at City and want Ole to continue. I have 2 reasons, one- he's done all the work in cleaning up the deadwood regardless of their stature in the squad or their personality. He really got the squad trimmed up with quality players and has virtually sent out every player we shouldn't keep at United. Jones will go soon but he's got almost everyone out. Secondly, he has the best team of experts as a coaching staff to help him in terms of playing positions, tactics, rotation and so on. Anyone who comes in after this will take a long time with this squad to succeed but if we gave Ole some time, i think he can bring a massive change in the way we play and in our results. Keep patience and see the magic happen. OLE AT THE WHEEL!
 

bondsname

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I've been on the fence but I'm Ole out.. Obviously if things change drastically I will change my opinion, but I just don't believe things will change under Ole.
 

el3mel

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Egypt
I'm not one of those guys who thinks Ole should not continue. In fact i want Poch to take over at City and want Ole to continue. I have 2 reasons, one- he's done all the work in cleaning up the deadwood regardless of their stature in the squad or their personality. He really got the squad trimmed up with quality players and has virtually sent out every player we shouldn't keep at United. Jones will go soon but he's got almost everyone out. Secondly, he has the best team of experts as a coaching staff to help him in terms of playing positions, tactics, rotation and so on. Anyone who comes in after this will take a long time with this squad to succeed but if we gave Ole some time, i think he can bring a massive change in the way we play and in our results. Keep patience and see the magic happen. OLE AT THE WHEEL!
You're trolling surely right ? Please say you're trolling.