Whatever happens we have a nest of vipers in the dressing room

tomaldinho1

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I can’t help feeling this is a bit dramatic.

This is just how modern football works now. Managers/head coaches don’t have that kind of totalitarian control of a club anymore, bar a few examples like maybe Pep at City at the moment they’re not as integral to the day to do running of a club as they used to be. Managers are even more disposable than players, they cost less, get paid less, and it’s much easier to get rid of one manager and replace him than it is to clear out 10 (or however many players it may be in any given situation) players who want him out and replace all of them.
This is the biggest reason Pep won't take a difficult job in my mind, the psychological side of football is so hard to win back once you lose a dressing room. Look at Mou. Pep is a taskmaster and supposedly incredibly strict with his players but he can do it because he wins, as soon as he goes somewhere and doesn't win quickly, the erosion of his control begins.

You're right re: managers being disposable. Football planning is really simple but United complicate it through terrible managerial decisions.

For example, let's say we envision ourselves as an attacking high pressing team. We have the spending power to bring in 2-3 good players a window so the platform is there. Then you simply look at managers who have built a team in that style (there are a feck load) and interview them, then choose your favourite. If one doesn't work out, you line up the next one and keep going until you find the right fit.

Our issue is we have never hired a coach that fits with how we envisage ourselves and, the most bizarre thing, is we have the media talking about United not being able to press when it's not even something we coach. Why are we complaining we don't press when ole doesn't coach a high press, it's so weird and worryingly indicative of people not thinking for themselves or watching the games and just living of media articles and headlines.
 

FatTails

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  • Buy great players, at great expense, on big wages, who are doing amazing at their clubs.
  • Initial excitement as they play well and show what they can do.
  • Soon enough they turn too either “not good enough” or “snakes and prima donnas”. While that is happening, said snakes and shit players perform great on international duty.
  • Sell snakes or terrible players, only for them to go play well and win trophies elsewhere.
The great cycle of the Manchester United transfer.
 

el3mel

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The players have been the only reason this clueless manager have stayed in his job up till now.

They are free to believe that their manager isn't good enough.
 

HTG

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Of course you do. You have a huge club with loads of top players. It’s normal. Other big clubs face the same issue. Just get a coach who is competent and the snakes won’t be an issue.
 

darko

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If there is smoke, there is fire. You don't get these rumblings if the manager hasn't lost the dressing room. The fact that two of the leaders in this team in Bruno and Pogba have outright questioned the tactics in the media is sufficient enough proof. And these comments were made before Pool even smacked us around.
I wonder if Bruno has been instructed not to back track. He plays as a fourth forward.
 

SungSam7

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Wouldnt you be pissed if your manager at your job was a clueless moron and you knew yourself that the way he was running the place made no sense?
Now we add in the fact that his inability to run the place affected your bonuses or chances of winning precious accolades?

Now OGS is not a moron btw, hes a player legend but as a manager, it is has been written on the walls for a while now he isnt up to the task! Should players shut up and keep playing like they have only known each other for 10 minutes before the gane. Id be pissed, their careers are only 10 years long at the top level. Wasting it with someone that is so far away from the standard is frustrating.

Apart from Pogba, id release him from his contract if no one would buy in January, hes a clown and just poison to any of the younger stars.
 

Ali Dia

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The manager is incompetent but he was alright when it comes time to sign a new deal under him, Pogba was “happy” a few months back, he got Ronaldo in etc. The players collectively have been absolutely awful this season and it’s not just tactical. They saunter around the pitch in second gear far too often acting like they’ve won it all when in fact they are overrated and over paid. I seriously doubt the manager is instructing them to go out there and half arse it or make loads of simple mistakes. That’s on the players and they are clearly passing the buck.

The manager/recruitment might not be of the requisite quality to win the CL but you can bet your bottom dollar the same soft players that allowed this to happen aren’t committed or hand working enough either and will down tools under the next manager as soon as we lose a few games in a row. It’s all total bollocks either way. PR overdrive. At least we knew Ole was genuinely a fan and not here primarily for money. Look at the Liverpool team. They are all on less than our players. It’s not all about money and image. It’s about pride and working fecking hard for each other and we’ve fostered and coddled this flash atmosphere for far too long post Fergie and the players have all but downed tools under a second manager in 5 years. That should say it all. Get rid of these players that are here doing this for a second time. Get a young hard progressive fitness and work rate based coach and weed out the lazy players. Carte Blanche. This culture of PR statements and passing the buck needs to stop. They are demanding world class wages to perform but they have a get of jail free card with the manager, every time. Feck that
 
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Ladron de redcafe

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Of course they’d have been able to do better than 66 points, then 74 points and zero trophies for that spend. I mean, Mourinho did exactly that before Ole man, more trophies, more points :lol:

As for the midfield, you must’ve missed us just being humiliated by Hendersen, Keita and Milner. Good managers, like Fergie and Klopp, even in today’s game make their system work.
Mourinho never got any closer than within 18 points of the champions when he was here. He certainly never never came as close to a title challenge during his tenure as United came last year. As awful as Solskjaer is, Mourinho's récord was shockingly bad.
 

FerociousCorgis

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nah they know they have an inept manager and a finite time of being able to play at this level. If anything they indulged him way too long. This isnt a job where players can afford to wait 3,4, 5 years for things to change.
 

Valencia's Left Foot

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They threw Mourinho under the bus briefing the media to get rid of him and are now doing the same with Solksjaer.
There were similar tales under LVG and Moyes - it's clear we have a rotten bunch of prima donnas who are not prepared to accept blame.
The likes of Maguire and Shaw regularly put in dreadful performances and then slabber on social media about making it right and keeping the faith.
We need clowns like them out - surely if it's the end for Solksjaer it should also be the end for most of the frauds wearing United shirts these days like Maguire, Shaw, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay, AWB and Martial who simply are not good enough.
You're pissed that we have players who can't accept blame and at the same time you're pissed at Maguire and Shaw getting on social media and accepting blame...makes perfect sense. Maguire and Shaw are good enough players to win, they are suffering from some terrible form, but we can't clear house every time the team runs into trouble. A competent manager should be able to get the best out of these guys.
 

DixieDean

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Can't blame the players. Their careers are short and those careers are currently being pissed away by an inadequate coach.
 

Tomuś

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Not this overhaul bollocks again.. The squad is fine, just need a couple of players (at least one top midfielder) and a few fringe guys leaving to trim it.
 

padzilla

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You're pissed that we have players who can't accept blame and at the same time you're pissed at Maguire and Shaw getting on social media and accepting blame...makes perfect sense. Maguire and Shaw are good enough players to win, they are suffering from some terrible form, but we can't clear house every time the team runs into trouble. A competent manager should be able to get the best out of these guys.
Are they though? Has either been part of a club that's won anything of note or looked like winning anything of note?
 

Smores

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I'd agree about Pogba but that's about it really.

Players want to win if they feel the manager is a weak link holding them back then you can't just expect them to be happy about it. Their silence is only gifted for so long which is why towards the end of managers you start to hear more and more.
 

Dve

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They threw Mourinho under the bus briefing the media to get rid of him and are now doing the same with Solksjaer.
There were similar tales under LVG and Moyes - it's clear we have a rotten bunch of prima donnas who are not prepared to accept blame.
The likes of Maguire and Shaw regularly put in dreadful performances and then slabber on social media about making it right and keeping the faith.
We need clowns like them out - surely if it's the end for Solksjaer it should also be the end for most of the frauds wearing United shirts these days like Maguire, Shaw, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay, AWB and Martial who simply are not good enough.
I think you should take you take any rapport about player uproar with a pitch of salt. We´ve seen this stories before when whoever manager is struggling - also Ole - so these kind of stories are very predictable.
 

padzilla

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Let's be honest throughout the past decade managers and players good and bad have all failed but all have came and gone what's the one constant in all this? The board - I suspect we are doomed with those morons overlooking the club.
 

Tomuś

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I'd be far more worried if the players actually had no problems with Ole just because he's nice.
 

Dve

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Are they though? Has either been part of a club that's won anything of note or looked like winning anything of note?
The Maguire and Shaw from last season clearly are good enough, but if you are going through all goals we have conceded this season, those two have to take personal responsibility for a broad part. If they have been performing to their best, United surely would have had a few points more. I don´t know much this is down to the coaches, but it´s not like it should be necessary to every season remind defenders how to defend.
 

Pexbo

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Listening to mitten he seems to suggest the dressing room unrest stuff is coming from agents of players who aren’t playing and the squad generally like Ole.
I mused similar yesterday. The stories seemed way to convenient for Donny.
 

Valencia's Left Foot

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I'd be far more worried if the players actually had no problems with Ole just because he's nice.
Good point. These players have seen what managerial changes have done for Chelsea...and they saw it first hand when Jose was let go for Ole. Sometimes, the team just needs a new voice in the locker room, a new pair of eyes to see the team without any biases that have been built up towards the players.
 

HailtotheKing

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The Maguire and Shaw from last season clearly are good enough, but if you are going through all goals we have conceded this season, those two have to take personal responsibility for a broad part. If they have been performing to their best, United surely would have had a few points more. I don´t know much this is down to the coaches, but it´s not like it should be necessary to every season remind defenders how to defend.
It's definitely up to the manager in continuing to pick them. Maguire was atrocious before his injury, now he's even worse because he's not even fit. He should've been taken off when he first got injured. Instead, he played on and could easily have cost us more goals. Bad decisions all around. And Shaw needs to be dropped if he's not playing well. He needs a kick up the backside. But I think it's also the case that he's trying to cover for Maguire's mistakes and ending up making more of his own. This is all on Ole. Maguire should not be playing right now, end of.
 

padzilla

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Yes, I've seen them play at very high levels for us and their national team.
The national team where they are part of a back seven? Three central defenders- two wing backs and two defensive midfielders?
I think they get an easy ride compared to other players in our squad who are dropped at the first sniff of a mistake.
 

Dve

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It's definitely up to the manager in continuing to pick them. Maguire was atrocious before his injury, now he's even worse because he's not even fit. He should've been taken off when he first got injured. Instead, he played on and could easily have cost us more goals. Bad decisions all around. And Shaw needs to be dropped if he's not playing well. He needs a kick up the backside. But I think it's also the case that he's trying to cover for Maguire's mistakes and ending up making more of his own. This is all on Ole. Maguire should not be playing right now, end of.
I tend to agree, although I can see it´s a tough call when the option is Lindelöf + Bailly + Telles. But yeah, that was what I was asking for as well after the Leicester game. Basically, we need Varane back soon as hell.
 

amolbhatia50k

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When you have a top class manager, your dressing room suddenly becomes full of leaders and when he's not up to scratch they become 'vipers'
 

Laurencio

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Then he can feck right off. We do not need players who pick and choose who they play for. He isn't good enough to have that kind of influence. He's a liability in defence that doesn't track back, and it's honestly even possible we'd be better without him.
 

Stig

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There are vipers in every football dressing room in the world, and especially in every successful dressing room. They are, by the nature of their jobs, highly competitive men looking to advance themselves as much as the team.

We all need to read the following excerpt from Evra's book. In the title-winning team that Moyes took over, some players just did not respect him (read the excerpt to know why!) and actively tried to get him into trouble. When you have world-class players and an average manager, it is bound to happen.

For the United job, you need a big enough personality. Ole is not one; he is just an ex-player who has no standing in the game as a manager. We need to hire and fire managers until we find the right man, while demanding standards from them all the time. It works for other big clubs, especially Chelsea. We, along with Arsenal, are the only big club in the world that indulges the idea of "re-build" so much. Look where that got them.

Anyway, here's the excerpt:

The problems with David Moyes started soon after he’d taken over in pre-season 2013. David was really nice with everyone as he tried to settle into the job as Manchester United manager, but everything he did was compared to how things had been under Sir Alex Ferguson.

Even the slightest change would start players griping about how this wasn’t what the old boss would have had us doing. In Sydney, during a warm-up tour, David suggested that we should do some stretching on Bondi Beach near the hotel.

He wanted the players to relax, to get out of the prison that hotels can become. United’s own security, who travelled with the team, suggested that it wasn’t the best idea because we’d instantly be recognised. David just replied that he’d been to the beach with Everton and that there were no problems. “Yes, but you’re at Man United,” one of the security team pointed out.

So we went to Bondi, and started to stretch on the beach. Within five minutes, about 50 people started running towards us as word spread. Security, who were furious as the situation began to spiral out of control, tried to stop fans who were barging right into the session, but they had no chance — Man United were training right in front of people in a public place. Mounted police arrived to restore some order. It was a shambles and we had to leave for everyone’s safety.

There was every reason, however, to be optimistic for the new season but by late September, for the first time in my stay at United, we were sixth and seventh in the table. The fear other teams had of us disappeared in a few short months. Old Trafford had simply stopped being a fortress. You only had to look at David’s face to see the pressure he was under.

But the way he dealt with it and us was a big mistake. In the dressing room before one game, he said, “Guys, you’ve won everything here, you have to show me the way to win. I have never won the league, you have to show me how to do it.” I could see what David was trying to do by making the players feel responsible, but Ferguson would never have asked his players how to win a game. He would have told us how to do it.

Some players used that against him because they thought they were now in charge. Players who’d accepted being on the bench under Ferguson would complain if they were on the bench under Moyes. That made a very hard job even harder.

I remember one time when the left back Alex Büttner had a massive plate of chips in the hotel before a game, which the manager objected to and banned. Chips aren’t the best food for a professional athlete so I can understand that, and David had a point, but the story appeared in a newspaper two days later.

David was slaughtered in the media for making changes like that and he reacted by letting players eat chips again. The players knew they were in charge, and there was some sort of incident every day, always an unhappy player. Players became cruel and joked that Bebé had won more medals than Moyes.

Guys, we have to take some responsibility,” I said in training after weeks of this negativity. “We have to give the guy a chance.”

How can you kiss his arse when he tried to sign someone in your position?” one came back at me. “He’s tried to sign every fecking left back in the world.”

I’d gone to talk to David after our drubbing at City in September, where Sergio Agüero had run riot. I gave it to him straight, “There’s something wrong here, boss. The dressing room is not happy and I’ve not seen that in my time here before.” David admitted that he wasn’t the best communicator with the players, but told me that I should focus on my own game as I was playing well. What was a big issue in my mind didn’t seem to worry the manager.

As the situation deteriorated I decided to text Ferguson to see if I could talk to him at his home. Cathy Ferguson made me a nice cup of tea. “Boss, you have to help David,” I told Ferguson. “Patrice, I appreciate your concern and I’ll try and speak to him, but I’ve given him the biggest chance of his life and I think it’s fair that I keep a distance and let him do his job.”

We lost at home to West Brom at the end of September, a humiliating result for a team who had won the league five months earlier. I wasn’t alone in thinking David had made a mistake by getting rid of Ferguson’s three main coaches, Mick Phelan — a real football coach who held enjoyable training sessions — René Meulensteen and Eric Steele.

In February 2014, we lost 2-0 at Olympiacos in the Champions League. Our performance was dreadful. As I got back on to the team plane, I walked past David Moyes’s father sitting at the front. I felt for him, he should have been proud to see his son managing Manchester United in a big European game, but the defeat overtook everything.

I expected the players to be distraught on that plane; instead they were laughing around and playing video games, which admittedly was the normal thing to do on the way back home, but I didn’t feel it was the right thing to do after a humiliating defeat in Greece. The players had decided that the manager, not them, was the problem.

Again, I went to see David and told him that I was going to call a players’ meeting because the season was turning into a disaster. “I’m telling you because I don’t want you thinking that I’ve gone behind your back,” I explained. “Do it, Pat, that’s fine.” David was really down and getting criticism from everywhere. He needed support from the people who could help him, the players.

We held that meeting at Carrington and everyone aired their opinions. The players admitted that they weren’t performing to their abilities but that they didn’t have full faith in the manager. Too many of them blamed the manager.

We won away at West Brom in the first game after Olympiacos, but then we lost 3-0 at home to Liverpool, a disastrous result. David called a meeting of the defenders the following day. Nemanja Vidic was coming back from injury and it was common knowledge that he was leaving for Inter Milan at the end of the season.

David went through all the defensive players and picked out Nemanja and Phil Jones for criticism for their positioning. Suddenly, Nemanja started swearing in Serbian. “Sorry, do you have a problem?” David asked a visibly emotional Nemanja. “We have to defend one against one, but Rafael and Patrice are always high, they think they are strikers, they need to stay back.”

I disputed that, shouting, “You have to take your responsibility, Nemanja!” We stood up and argued, unable to hear each other above each other’s shouts. We started to square up and then I pushed him. David was going mad, telling me to calm down.

David’s assistants were now keeping us apart as I shouted at Nemanja, “I’ll wait for you after training.” It escalated in no time. My plan was to wait for Nemanja and fight him after training because David’s assistants wouldn’t let me get near him at the club. I would see him in the car park and we could fight there and then, man to man.

As I was thinking my plan through, one of the coaches told me that the manager wanted to see me in his office. David was shocked — I don’t think he’d seen two players fight like that before. I told the manager that I was sorry, that I shouldn’t have pushed Nemanja. “Where did that strength come from, Pat?” he replied, surprised and laughing. “But seriously, you cannot fall out with Nemanja like that.” “I know,” I replied.

I was still really angry, though, and went back home and planned how I was going to punch Vida the next day. I’d barely calmed down the next morning when I arrived at training and changed, but I didn’t see Vida all day. David told me not to do anything stupid and I promised him that I wouldn’t.

On Easter Sunday 2014, we lost 2-0 to Everton. Giggsy, who had been dropped, went mad after that match when Everton fans surrounded our bus and started abusing us. One of them threw something that bounced off the coach window. Giggsy stood up on the coach and shouted: “fecking Everton fans are now taking the piss out of us. Enough is enough.”


Great post.
 

Van Piorsing

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Then he can feck right off. We do not need players who pick and choose who they play for. He isn't good enough to have that kind of influence. He's a liability in defence that doesn't track back, and it's honestly even possible we'd be better without him.
You're not wrong... but also he badly wants Zidane to become United manager.
 

HailtotheKing

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I tend to agree, although I can see it´s a tough call when the option is Lindelöf + Bailly + Telles. But yeah, that was what I was asking for as well after the Leicester game. Basically, we need Varane back soon as hell.
We do, but Ole's blind faith in players that have kept him in a job before and are now helping to kick him out of it by their lack of quality or form is shocking. McTominay and Maguire are playing shite and the fact he's still picking them is insane, not to mention stupid due to what it does to the dressing room. Not the greatest man-management considering that's the thing he's supposed to be good at.
 

pratyush_utd

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So having honest feedback about your manager is not acceptable now.
 

Enigma_87

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Then he can feck right off. We do not need players who pick and choose who they play for. He isn't good enough to have that kind of influence. He's a liability in defence that doesn't track back, and it's honestly even possible we'd be better without him.
When the board doesn't pull the trigger and you are managed by an amateur players will rebel. It's only natural.

At least shows some ambition from the players when fans and board lowered the bar to rock bottom. Of course Pogba would've helped his case if he actually put that ambition on the pitch and not only off it.