I agree.
When does Mourinho's job come under threat?
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Absolute Bullshit.
Hypocritical would be after years of disliking a man who has gouged others in the eye, forcing referees to retire, making sexist comments about another man's wife, insulting respected managers, throwing his staff under a bus, throwing his players under a bus and being in general an arrogant tosspot who our clubs biggest ever legend has expressed concerns about getting the job and then idolising him when he takes over.
The fan base on redcafe may have loved Jose but a lot of fans do not. My dad's mates who have had season tickets for years stopped going this year. They don't like Jose Mourinho. My girlfriend works for a company in Wilmslow who used to get complimentary tickets now and then which stopped this year. The boss has had enough. That wasnt due to Jose but more about the overall atmosphere of the club. Last season I bumped a thread that was made at the start of the season. We all were laughing at Jose Mourinho for his handling of Eva. Everyone was criticising him. For me it is more hypocritical to support the man through thick and thin after those insults.
What is more for years I've been criticising Mourinho's management. You know this. When there was a thread on here discussing how Mourinho would create a dynasty and no one could catch his Chelsea , I was saying they'd struggle in his third year. I've always said I don't like his management, my opinion doesn't change when he's hired. I think he takes clubs backwards.
Despite all this I was ready to give him a chance. I said as much. But all my fears are coming true. I've always argued he doesn't improve youngsters. And now Martial ( the best young player in the world last year) looks shot. Rashford who was a revelation is now... on the wing where he clearly doesn't belong. Shaw was criticised by Mourinho to the point his brother has had a go on Twitter. Smalling after being our best outfield player last year looks comical. Our first choice right back is out and TFM is nowhere to be seen. That worries me.
I've always been critical of his transfer policy. Then he signs Zlatan, a 35 year old who is more meme than footballer at the moment. He's come in and taken starts away from Rashford, annoyed Martial by taking his shirt number and generally missed more chances than anyone else in the whole league. Mikhitaryan has had such weird treatment after being a 35 million pound buy that our fambase is currently making up rumours that he cried after getting subbed off. We've broken a world record transfer fee for a player who has barely influenced any game. That worries me.
I've always criticised his style of play. I thought it was overly defensive and not making the most of his players. Well we scored one goal last month. We had lots of shots but we aren't finishing them. People are happy over that fair enough but it's Mourinho's buys who are missing these chances. And our defence which was amazing last year is now porous. As a matter of fact what noone is mentioning is that Burnley had about two wonderful chances to score against us. We're even struggling in the Europa league. This worries me.
And now for the man himself. The man who I don't particularly like personality wise. After pissing off Shaw to the point his brother went mad on Twitter, after pissing off Martial by changing his shirt number which he was building a brand around by giving it to a 35 year old. After throwing his new signing under a bus. After criticising the desire of our squad who last year come from behind to win a FA cup final. Where is he today! Banned for insulting a referee. Where was the blame on Saturday? With the players for not being prepared; that's your job Jose! To get them ready. And they aren't. That worries me.
Now the redcafe great narrative has shifted. From "Jose will have an immediate impact" and "with Zlatan and Pogba we can win the league" to "it's all the players fault. Oh that's convenient.
A) you're hard pressed to find a player in our squad who hasn't won a major honour
B) well why didn't Jose get rid of them?
C) LVG was slaughtered here last year to the point where some were not watching gsmes and others were wanting us to lose so he was out the door. But now it's the players.
So basically Cina there is a man I don't like who I have always questioned as a manager who now leads the club I love. And I still go to games and I am still desperate for us to turn it around but I'm worried. Because I don't feel a connection with the manager who has come in and sent us backwards. A manager we basically had to accept warts and all with the promise of immediate success. Well despite record transfers we aren't getting that.
The hypocrites are the ones that called Jose a cnut for years and now post "he's our cnut now". The hypocrites are the ones that called for LVGs head now are supporting a manager who is objectively doing worse and has shifted the blame onto the players. The hypocrites are the ones that said Jose would have gotten us to fourth if he come in last year and now are accepting of the results
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Twigg, let's get the #lvgback thing going on twitter. We don't need this Mourinho Utd.
There will come a time when we either need to back him or sack him !
When you look at pep , klopp and even conte you can plainly see how they have improved decent but not exactly world class players .
I'm not bagging mourinho but if we're being honest , how many players in our squad as he improved ?
In my opinion only Valencia ,mata and Herrera have progressed from last season and in anders case it's only the fact that he's getting game time that's the difference .
Has rashford , lingaard , martial , Rooney , fellaini , Morgan , darmian , depay , smalling , blind , young , tfm, pogba , zlatan ect ect improved on there form from last year ???
They have all regressed from last season so surely the buck stops with mourinho ?
The remit for moyes and LVG was top 4 and I see no reason why it would change for Jose .
Mourinho as never built a team so why trust him to do the same here . He looks far from happy every time I see him and his treatment of bastian and carrick as been terrible .
We're crying out for carrick to hold but mourinho insists that carrick needs to be managed at his age when zlatan (at the same age as never missed a pl minute) .
Top 4 or out I think !
When you look at pep , klopp and even conte you can plainly see how they have improved decent but not exactly world class players .
I'm not bagging mourinho but if we're being honest , how many players in our squad as he improved ?
In my opinion only Valencia ,mata and Herrera have progressed from last season and in anders case it's only the fact that he's getting game time that's the difference .
Has rashford , lingaard , martial , Rooney , fellaini , Morgan , darmian , depay , smalling , blind , young , tfm, pogba , zlatan ect ect improved on there form from last year ???
They have all regressed from last season so surely the buck stops with mourinho ?
The remit for moyes and LVG was top 4 and I see no reason why it would change for Jose .
Mourinho as never built a team so why trust him to do the same here . He looks far from happy every time I see him and his treatment of bastian and carrick as been terrible .
We're crying out for carrick to hold but mourinho insists that carrick needs to be managed at his age when zlatan (at the same age as never missed a pl minute) .
Top 4 or out I think !
Hopefully the top 4 or out thing is not applied on him. We need continuity. I hope we give him his contract period atleast. Football has changed a lot, the competition as fierce as it has been ever and we need a manager who is a winner. Jose is just that. I dont get that there is anyone else better than him out there. We need to give him at least 4 transfer windows. He will get it right there is no doubt about it.
10 fecking league games. Our 'fans' have become a disgrace.
He should be given the length of his contract and based on performance over this time, either another contract will be offered or not.
Jose is the right manager but our club now needs stability and time.
Jose is the right manager but our club now needs stability and time.
Can you edit that to include a TL;dr version?
dang. I'd be pining for LVG after reading this if I were a manc. all that is missing from this post is a mic drop.
tl;dr - twiggy wiped the floor with you, Cina.
His job will be under threat if there is a possibility that we can replace him with someone better.
There aren't many managers better than Mourinho.
There aren't many managers better than Mourinho.
Nah, I read it. He talked a load of bollocks. He is a hypocrite for defending LvG and Moyes through thick and thin and already asking if our new manager should be sacked. Considering at the start of the season he said "right, I didn't want him, but we need to get behind him because he's our manager now" or something along those lines, it's pretty hilarious to make this thread the first moment it looks like things aren't going great.
It isn't the manager who is letting us down. It's the freeloading players who lack ambition and seem happy to take their massive wads of moolah every week without feeling guilty
When he lose tomorrow I guess. The pressure will be enormous at the international break. The board should have a chat with him if things go wrong tomorrow and he should know that his job is not safe if he does not improve the team in coming weeks. He asked for 4 players, and Ed gave him his 4 players he ordered. He is being supported by the biggest fan-base in the world. He should start delivering results now. I don't care how many injuries we have.
At the moment, José Mourinho looks far from what should have been one of the happiest moments to ever happen to us, which is only bettered by the appointment of Sir Alex back in late 1986. However, the "Special one", is far from the "Special one", that we had already known when he was managing the likes of Porto, Chelsea, Internazionale and Real Madrid. In those days, it looked as though that everything he touched turned to gold. So, in that respect, it was only right to have those sort of expectations when he was finally appointed.
Contrary to the idea of being the "special one", could it be that hi managerial prowess be waining to the extent that he is slowly turning into a Sam Allardyce or a Tony Pulis? Could it be that the game evolved rapidly in the Premier league whilst he was manager of Real Madrid? If as a manager you have a tried and trusted technique that works, there is no reason to change it, so with that in mind, we really have to say that the game clearly evolved whilst he is away, since there is no other explanation for his incompetence at such a very high level of football.
I am not going to criticise our current manager because his record clearly indicates that he is an exceptional manager in his own respect and as fans of the game, he deserves respect for what he has won, just as we respect Sir Alex Ferguson, Pep Guardiola, Louis Van Gaal or Arsene Wenger. However, his record from the moment he started last season with Chelsea until he was sacked, and also from the moment he took over as manager (no friendly matches included, just the community shield and other cups), his record reads thus:
Played 42
Won 18
Drawn 8
Lost 16
GF 60
GA 50
GD +10
These are pretty damning statistics and with nearly 42.8% win success, what can only be described as abysmal is loss rate of 38% in all of those games. Furthermore, with him being such a "defensive" manager, the number of goals conceded worries me because to concede more than 1 goal per game is a concern. However, as I have mentioned in one of my earlier posts, as fans, we need to stick with the manager.
Contrary to the idea of being the "special one", could it be that hi managerial prowess be waining to the extent that he is slowly turning into a Sam Allardyce or a Tony Pulis? Could it be that the game evolved rapidly in the Premier league whilst he was manager of Real Madrid? If as a manager you have a tried and trusted technique that works, there is no reason to change it, so with that in mind, we really have to say that the game clearly evolved whilst he is away, since there is no other explanation for his incompetence at such a very high level of football.
I am not going to criticise our current manager because his record clearly indicates that he is an exceptional manager in his own respect and as fans of the game, he deserves respect for what he has won, just as we respect Sir Alex Ferguson, Pep Guardiola, Louis Van Gaal or Arsene Wenger. However, his record from the moment he started last season with Chelsea until he was sacked, and also from the moment he took over as manager (no friendly matches included, just the community shield and other cups), his record reads thus:
Played 42
Won 18
Drawn 8
Lost 16
GF 60
GA 50
GD +10
These are pretty damning statistics and with nearly 42.8% win success, what can only be described as abysmal is loss rate of 38% in all of those games. Furthermore, with him being such a "defensive" manager, the number of goals conceded worries me because to concede more than 1 goal per game is a concern. However, as I have mentioned in one of my earlier posts, as fans, we need to stick with the manager.
How can you say that his managerial prowess waned while at Real when he won the PL title just 2 seasons back? Comparing him to the likes of allardyce and pulis is weird too because even if you ignore all the things he's won in the past saying his ability has gone, it still doesn't make sense when he won the title so recently. I also don't see the great evolution in the PL tbh. It's still the same in most parts with a handful of managers setting teams up differently, the ones you could call radically different are even less.
He clearly lost the team at Chelsea and that showed. With us, the problems have been different in the PL. If our strikers simply finished chances, such threads wouldn't even exist. Whatever things a manager is responsible for, a striker failing to put the ball in the back of the net isn't something he can help.
Lastly, I do think he's tweaked the way he's used to setting up in the PL of late. With Chelsea, the approach was to defend in a deep block and hit the opponent with pace. It's not the same here and we play a much more open style in most games. He reverts to his usual plan vs the big teams but that's always been the case with him. In other games though, a definite change in how we play so I'd not call him someone who's not willing to adapt.
That's my worry IF it did happen.
I think the majority of fans are behind the manager and will give him time to rebuild.Its the owners Id be more worried about that they don't get too impatient and pull the trigger.
A lot of our also ran players are clearly hoping they can get Mou sacked before he bins them. I am sticking with him through thick and thin. If he can't fix this mess who can?
Thanks for bringing it up Varun. I have nothing but praise for what he had done at Real Madrid, and he didn't really have to do anything since the team basically worked on its own. However, when I spoke about the waining process, it was clearly in relation to when he took over at Chelsea in his second stint. There was a gap of 6 years from when he last managed Chelsea back in 2007 until the moment he came back for the 2013 season. I think it is clear that the football in the Premier league has clearly evolved over that time, whereas José Mourinho's coaching style didn't evolve at all.
Further to your post about how he lost the team, I don't doubt that one little bit and there was a moment where I thought that Hazard would force a move, since he wasn't that happy at all. This same excuse could be used against David Moyes and Louis Van Gaal, where they clearly lost the team too, but their statistics are just slightly better than those of Mourinho, with José Mourinho having the same loss percentage as David Moyes (29.41% in all games managed.) Only 3 managers managed to have a loss percentage of less than 25.00%; Sir Alex (17.80%), Ron Atkinson (22.95%) and Louis Van Gaal (23.30%) With the big teams, or should we say the top 6, his record at the moment is played 3, won 0, Drawn 1 and lost 2. Louis Van Gaal 5 wins in his first 11 matches against the top 6 in his first season.
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Thanks for the response in any case Varun, my 5 posts are up unfortunately and can no longer respond.
The title win 2yrs back that I'm talking shout is the title win at Chelsea. This was after his stint at Real and dispels the notion that the PL has evolved on the time he wasn't here and he's been unable to keep up.
His stint here atm has been too short for the stats to mean much. The sample size simply isn't big enough. I think Moyes has the best record of the 3 in the first 10 games, that in itself shows how meaningless stats over such a short sample size are.
Anyways, good discussion. No worries.
IMO, Mou's pinnacle as a a manager was at Inter.
At Real he did a very good job but not brilliant, given that he worked with the most expensive squad in the world. Simeone, for instance, has done a much better job with much less money.
At Chelsea 2 he did a good job but not as good as at Real (for the competition was generally weaker than in La Liga) and the third year was an unmitigated catastrophe.
Now, the start at United is the worst start he has ever had, at least in the last 15 years. He's young enough to reverse the tendency but if he fails to win a big title at United, the decline will become all too obvious and this may turn out to be his last appointment at a big big club.
(Maybe Inter/Milan would take him even if he failed at United but they are not in top 15 of the best clubs now.)
At Real he did a very good job but not brilliant, given that he worked with the most expensive squad in the world. Simeone, for instance, has done a much better job with much less money.
At Chelsea 2 he did a good job but not as good as at Real (for the competition was generally weaker than in La Liga) and the third year was an unmitigated catastrophe.
Now, the start at United is the worst start he has ever had, at least in the last 15 years. He's young enough to reverse the tendency but if he fails to win a big title at United, the decline will become all too obvious and this may turn out to be his last appointment at a big big club.
(Maybe Inter/Milan would take him even if he failed at United but they are not in top 15 of the best clubs now.)
Woof. What a post.
FAO Niall. Can we add in signatures so I can end every post with this?
I thought I had 0 posts left. I don't think anyone can actually dispute his success with Chelsea when they had lost only 3 matches in that season he won the league, however, it is clear that something personal must have happened to José Mourinho inter-season, because there is no real explanation as to why he was sacked a few games into the next season. We know he lost Petr Cech and Drogba to other clubs during the close season, but it still doesn't really explain the reason as to why his team performed terribly just before he was sacked.
I agree that the sample size is too small at the moment and I will be keeping my eyes on the evolution, however, this month is going to be a bit hot for Mourinho, with some really massive must-win games. We do not want to be out of the title race, out of the Europa league and out of the football league cup by the end of November. Likewise, a good discussion being had.
If I was LVG I'd be crying after reading this.
Deserves a slow clap building up to a beautiful crescendo.
I had given your first post a like before replying to it which took your like count to 7, thus extending your post limit in the mains.
These are the players who finished fifth on goal difference behind city. These are the same players that finished ahead of Chelsea and Liverpool yet Liverpool and Chelsea look miles better than us....it's funny that they will give mourinho all these excuses.
Many thanks Varun. I will save my last 3 posts here for later on.
Van Gaal was much worse, he was like a dictator. Only good thing he did was bringing in youngsters like Rashford, Martial, Lingard.
Ah, the Caf. I see that "Sack the Manager" is back on the menu again. I vaguely seem to recall that some wise ass started a Mourinho Sackwatch thread the day he was hired that was closed immediately. In all honesty we probably should have left it open.
I think it's fine, those of you who are concerned about Jose, but I'm honestly still fully on board with Mourinho. Citing Moyes' record vs. Mourinho is frankly revisionist bullshit, anyone who watched remembers that he started alright, basically trying his best to play exactly like Fergie with the same players, then he started tinkering, and by the end it all fell apart and the football was atrocious.
LVG had a plan, followed it, but again his transfers mostly flopped, and the end product was efficiently boring.
Personally, I'm all in on valuing performance over results. Some of my favourite United did not win everything in sight but I loved those players and the football, especially in the early nineties.
I'm comparing that to now, and we have a thread where people can name about 10 players they want out. I still struggle to comprehend how we've brought in DiMaria (Pansy), Schneiderlein, Schweinsteiger, Depay, Darmian, Mikitaryan, etc. and it seems like we are just fecking cursed when it comes to transfers. These are bloody quality footballers, and it seems the minute they get to Manchester they're injured, robbed, or totally forgot how to play football. Given that, I suppose we should blame the medical staff, the manager, the training regiment, criminal elements in greater Manchester, or making 19 and 20 year olds multi millionaire global stars, but it's frankly bad luck. And we have to couple that with the simple fact that the holdovers from SAFs' era have been spotty to say the least: Rooney, Carrick, Jones, etc.
So back to Mourinho, personally I've seen some proper performances. Sure, the result didn't go our way. Fenerbache away was pretty shite. But overall, Mourinho's side has passed the eye test for me on occasion, and for me that's enough to keep the faith, results be damned. Play good football, and the results follow, not the other way around. For me at least.
I think it's fine, those of you who are concerned about Jose, but I'm honestly still fully on board with Mourinho. Citing Moyes' record vs. Mourinho is frankly revisionist bullshit, anyone who watched remembers that he started alright, basically trying his best to play exactly like Fergie with the same players, then he started tinkering, and by the end it all fell apart and the football was atrocious.
LVG had a plan, followed it, but again his transfers mostly flopped, and the end product was efficiently boring.
Personally, I'm all in on valuing performance over results. Some of my favourite United did not win everything in sight but I loved those players and the football, especially in the early nineties.
I'm comparing that to now, and we have a thread where people can name about 10 players they want out. I still struggle to comprehend how we've brought in DiMaria (Pansy), Schneiderlein, Schweinsteiger, Depay, Darmian, Mikitaryan, etc. and it seems like we are just fecking cursed when it comes to transfers. These are bloody quality footballers, and it seems the minute they get to Manchester they're injured, robbed, or totally forgot how to play football. Given that, I suppose we should blame the medical staff, the manager, the training regiment, criminal elements in greater Manchester, or making 19 and 20 year olds multi millionaire global stars, but it's frankly bad luck. And we have to couple that with the simple fact that the holdovers from SAFs' era have been spotty to say the least: Rooney, Carrick, Jones, etc.
So back to Mourinho, personally I've seen some proper performances. Sure, the result didn't go our way. Fenerbache away was pretty shite. But overall, Mourinho's side has passed the eye test for me on occasion, and for me that's enough to keep the faith, results be damned. Play good football, and the results follow, not the other way around. For me at least.
Not our fans mate but the insidious little wretches that plague most forums.
There are a handful of usual suspects who start threads as soon as they get a whiff of negativity. It's a mixture of sad and pathetic individuals who love to spread the misery and inadequacy of their lives to others and out and out cretinous losers. For some it's a cry for help.
Discuss tactics and performances fine but calling for the managers demise 10 games in is inexcusable. Especially since the more vocal ones were defending moyes and lVG to the death but are foaming at the mouth to drum up support for causing chaos at the club. They are out for vengeance at the expense of the club and for the benefit of their pride.
You know what they say "Misery loves company"
it's a well written post but it says a lot that it's all oppo fans agreeing with it, who unsurprisingly hate Mourinho. I don't actually disagree with most of it, it's well known the man was/is a total cnut but that doesn't change the fact that you made a similar post when he was appointed saying that now he's our manager, we have to stick with him through thick and thin, and yet here you are 10 games into the season already basically calling for the man's head. It's just massive double standards.
I don't like Mourinho, by the way, he is a prick, he's done a poor job so far that's left me very frustrated. But if we gave LvG two fecking years we can't be discussing sacking Mourinho already after he has had a similar start to his first season.
Absolutely this.
We can moan, we can call for Jose's head, we can even start ta ra Jose campaigns, it still won't affect his job security. However bad the results may turn out this season, he is sackproof. The board can't keep on sacking and appointing managers every other season, it'll make them look bad in terms of decision making. Then there's the fact that there wasn't anyone else better suited for the job.
Jose all the way. Or atleast for the next 3 years.
Fair play to have your reservations and concerns, but I think Twiggs that you'd also acknowledge that it's perfectly fair to not base everything solely on results, it's performances that matter and that needs a holistic approach not just honing in the latest catastrophic result, and to put the blame solely on the doorstep of the manager is frankly short sighted and reductionism. The issues at United stretch all the way back to the latter days of SAF's reign, on through Moyes' calamitous year and the 2 seasons of "The Philosophy", which I like you, think were under appreciated and maligned a bit too much. You don't like Mourinho- fair play, but dropping all of United's problems on his doorstep is just as disingenuous as dropping all of United's problems on Moyes or LVG.
Sacking him at this point wouldn't achieve anything, give him 2 years and see. If we don't get top 4 this year then so what? I'd prefer to be like Liverpool this year with just the league to focus on no European distractions.
As of now though it's the players that need to hold their hand up and make sure they improve it's not mourinhos fault Ibra had missed countless sitters
As of now though it's the players that need to hold their hand up and make sure they improve it's not mourinhos fault Ibra had missed countless sitters
Why do you want a prick at your football club? I just can't get behind him.
oh really? The one who swapped shirt and had big smile after that embarrassing loss is exactly the one he worked and works well with. He brought that guy here to be his talisman, his warrior on field and insists to still play him even that guy had not done his job for 7 matches.
The thing is...
Even if (and it's actually quite a big 'if') Mourinho does win a few trophies, it's very likely the squad actually wont be in a better state than how he found it. He'll leave once it's gone tits up.
He's not the trophy-winning machine of before, and he's not likely to have the trophy-filled tenure that some hope. And if he doesn't, he's not bringing any other benefits.
All in all, a rather poor choice of manager for a club in this situation, to be honest. Look at Tottenham and Liverpool for the managers (or the type of managers) who should have been targeted. With a passion for youth and attacking football. With zero baggage. With recent evidence of their ability to improve teams/clubs in unfavourable positions (and without huge funds).
Even if (and it's actually quite a big 'if') Mourinho does win a few trophies, it's very likely the squad actually wont be in a better state than how he found it. He'll leave once it's gone tits up.
He's not the trophy-winning machine of before, and he's not likely to have the trophy-filled tenure that some hope. And if he doesn't, he's not bringing any other benefits.
All in all, a rather poor choice of manager for a club in this situation, to be honest. Look at Tottenham and Liverpool for the managers (or the type of managers) who should have been targeted. With a passion for youth and attacking football. With zero baggage. With recent evidence of their ability to improve teams/clubs in unfavourable positions (and without huge funds).
So much shite being posted in here it's hard to know where to start.
The thread itself is an embarrassment and I really do wish that rather than moan some of you would do the club a favour and feck off elsewhere.
The thread itself is an embarrassment and I really do wish that rather than moan some of you would do the club a favour and feck off elsewhere.
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