White civil rights activist pretending to be black...

[maniak]

No one can choose their gender or race.

People can't choose their gender?

 

[surf]

And again - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/berkel...gizes-false-indigenous-identity-admits-white/

Colleges get good publicity, and hence money in their coffers, from hiring a poster child for diversity. And the applicant gets a great job. And the culturally appropriated group benefits if the subsequent job performance of the faculty member is effective. Win-win-win.

 

[RedTiger]

People can't choose their gender?

People can't choose their race?

 

[maniak]

People can't choose their race?

I don't understand your point.

 

[The Corinthian]

There is clear history of those people doing it for a benefit; either sympathy, credibility, scholarships etc.

There is no comparable motive for being transgender.

There’s a multitude of reasons just as the guy who wants to be Korean for his love of Korean culture and aesthetics.

That's just a flippant remark to highlight the stupidity of your post.

Ah, I get it - you were making stupid comments because you were unable to discuss like an adult.

 

[The Corinthian]

If there was a long documented record of that happening, as well as science backing up the distinctions, then yeah I'm sure people would start to consider why it is happening and if there were something we, as a society, could do to help. Not you though I presume - just the people with some empathy.

If people are killing themselves because they identify with something other than themselves I’d say there should be therapy and psychological mechanics in place to help them through as a first port of call.

When you say ‘science backing up the distinctions’ what do you mean specifically?

And it’s weird that you think I’m unempathetic just by asking questions. Does everything have to be so emotional or can we discuss civilly?

 

[The Corinthian]

People can't choose their gender?

Come on. I know you know that removing the rest of my post makes it devoid of context. I’m clearly talking about people can’t choose their gender or race from birth.

 

[maniak]

Come on. I know you know that removing the rest of my post makes it devoid of context. I’m clearly talking about people can’t choose their gender or race from birth.

I'm not sure I follow. At the moment of birth the concept of gender is pretty much meaningless. However, it would possible to identify your race.

 

[The Corinthian]

I'm not sure I follow. At the moment of birth the concept of gender is pretty much meaningless. However, it would possible to identify your race.

The concept of gender is not meaningless at birth. In fact, if you had 10 different babies of varying colours you’d be able to identify all of their genders and not all of their races.

 

[maniak]

The concept of gender is not meaningless at birth. In fact, if you had 10 different babies of varying colours you’d be able to identify all of their genders and not all of their races.

Fair enough, that's true about races. However, in terms of changing those, how would you go on about changing race? Maybe some weird genetic procedure, I dunno. As for gender, plenty of people identified with one at birth, now have a different one as adults. Doesn't that mean you can change gender?

 

[DOTA]

I've met very few babies with strong opinions on what pronouns you should use for them.

 

[The Corinthian]

Fair enough, that's true about races. However, in terms of changing those, how would you go on about changing race? Maybe some weird genetic procedure, I dunno. As for gender, plenty of people identified with one at birth, now have a different one as adults. Doesn't that mean you can change gender?

Yea - I’m not talking about changing gender (or race) as a consenting adult. The convo’s genesis started off about from birth where horsechoker made the point that race is ‘given’ to the baby but gender isn’t. Which doesn’t make any sense at all as both are out of their control.

In answer to your question specifically - there’s a fair few examples in this thread about how a person would change their race. And similar to transgender there’s people who have changed their name, their appearance, their style of attire, as well as having some form of surgery. So the overlap is there.

 

[RedTiger]

I'm not sure I follow. At the moment of birth the concept of gender is pretty much meaningless. However, it would possible to identify your race.

How is gender meaningless at birth yet race isn't? Are you basing this on physical appearance at birth because race in our current human understanding comes down to the level of melalin in the skin, there are plenty of babies born without the same level of melanin as their biological parents yet you'll happily asign a preconceived race to that baby but not asign a gender to same baby.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

There’s a multitude of reasons just as the guy who wants to be Korean for his love of Korean culture and aesthetics.

Ah, I get it - you were making stupid comments because you were unable to discuss like an adult.

He can do a number of things to scratch that itch. He can move to Korea and tell everyone he's there because he loves the culture and be accepted by the people there. He can fill his home with Korean art and eat bibimbap every day and feel fulfilled. He will not experience an existential crisis, violence or discrimination from his appreciation of Korean culture. Some plucky racist might drive by and shout 'Korean lover' at him, I suppose, but that's less likely today than it was in say the 1950s.

In reference to the more high profile cases, it is illogical for white people in the Americas to want to be a member of the two lowest races on the social ladder here. Those who do are gaining a significant benefit from it such as academic credibility in the case of the fake Haudenosaunee/MicMac anthropologist. This behaviour actively hurts the survivors of attempted genocide and years of systemic discrimination. The guy who loves Korea doesn't do that.

The comparison to gender dysphoria is dishonest and is advanced only to further an anti-trans agenda. It also shows a blatant disregard for the lived experience of the oppressed people who are being further victimized by white folks pretending to be like them for social media likes, career progression, etc.

 

[maniak]

Yea - I’m not talking about changing gender (or race) as a consenting adult. The convo’s genesis started off about from birth where horsechoker made the point that race is ‘given’ to the baby but gender isn’t. Which doesn’t make any sense at all as both are out of their control.

OK fair enough, I guess if you're talking about newborns then nothing is under their control. But I was under the impression your first post was comparing the situations between adults, no?

In answer to your question specifically - there’s a fair few examples in this thread about how a person would change their race. And similar to transgender there’s people who have changed their name, their appearance, their style of attire, as well as having some form of surgery. So the overlap is there.

Can you point me to some articles that show similarities in the experiences of transgender people and people who change races?

 

[maniak]

How is gender meaningless at birth yet race isn't? Are you basing this on physical appearance at birth because race in our current human understanding comes down to the level of melalin in the skin, there are plenty of babies born without the same level of melanin as their biological parents yet you'll happily asign a preconceived race to that baby but not asign a gender to same baby.

To be honest they're both meaningless, none of them tells us anything about the person. I'm not sure what my original point was anymore, so I'll just leave it at this, it's just getting weird.

I still don't see how race and gender are comparable, but ok...

 

[The Corinthian]

He can do a number of things to scratch that itch. He can move to Korea and tell everyone he's there because he loves the culture and be accepted by the people there. He can fill his home with Korean art and eat bibimbap every day and feel fulfilled. He will not experience an existential crisis, violence or discrimination from his appreciation of Korean culture. Some plucky racist might drive by and shout 'Korean lover' at him, I suppose, but that's less likely today than it was in say the 1950s.

This is an awful take. Imagine someone made a similar type of argument (and I know that certain folks in government have) for people who want to change gender.

But anyway - don't take my word for it - here it is from the person himself:

The influencer, who has hundreds of thousands of followers across social media platforms including TikTok and Instagram, said they had been "very unhappy with who I am deep down for the last eight years".

"I'm not about negativity or sparking controversy. At the end of the day I'm a human being living in my truth. It's an unfortunate reality for so many to have to hide who they truly are."

In their video statement showing the results of their surgery - which includes a face lift, a brow lift, and work on their teeth - they said: "I know a lot of people don't understand me, but I do identify as Korean and I do look Korean now, I do feel Korean...

"That's just my culture. That's my home country. That's exactly how I look now. And I also identify as Jimin, that's my career name."

London said they understood there is "a little bit of confusion for some people" but after struggling with identity issues they finally "feel beautiful" and wanted to speak out during Pride month.

They said they had lived in Korea and speak the language and "have the Korean look now, I look completely Korean".

"And, you know, people might think, 'oh, I'm such a joke'. But you know what, guys? You don't understand. If you're trapped in the wrong body your whole life, you don't understand."

You tell me how that is any different to a person experiencing gender dysmorphia.

In reference to the more high profile cases, it is illogical for white people in the Americas to want to be a member of the two lowest races on the social ladder here. Those who do are gaining a significant benefit from it such as academic credibility in the case of the fake Haudenosaunee/MicMac anthropologist. This behaviour actively hurts the survivors of attempted genocide and years of systemic discrimination. The guy who loves Korea doesn't do that.

The comparison to gender dysphoria is dishonest and is advanced only to further an anti-trans agenda. It also shows a blatant disregard for the lived experience of the oppressed people who are being further victimized by white folks pretending to be like them for social media likes, career progression, etc.

I (sorta) agree with the principles here but the same argument can be made, and has been made by TERFs fighting for equality in a patriarchal society. Why would a man who has now transitioned into a woman understand the lived experiences of a woman?

The other thing is, not every case in the USA is about career advancement or academic credibility. There's many examples of even celebrities who you could make a case for being 'transracial'. There's people in everyday society who identify with another race or culture and 'live' it without going to the extremes of the guy above.

 

[Spoony]

He can do a number of things to scratch that itch. He can move to Korea and tell everyone he's there because he loves the culture and be accepted by the people there. He can fill his home with Korean art and eat bibimbap every day and feel fulfilled. He will not experience an existential crisis, violence or discrimination from his appreciation of Korean culture. Some plucky racist might drive by and shout 'Korean lover' at him, I suppose, but that's less likely today than it was in say the 1950s.

In reference to the more high profile cases, it is illogical for white people in the Americas to want to be a member of the two lowest races on the social ladder here. Those who do are gaining a significant benefit from it such as academic credibility in the case of the fake Haudenosaunee/MicMac anthropologist. This behaviour actively hurts the survivors of attempted genocide and years of systemic discrimination. The guy who loves Korea doesn't do that.

The comparison to gender dysphoria is dishonest and is advanced only to further an anti-trans agenda. It also shows a blatant disregard for the lived experience of the oppressed people who are being further victimized by white folks pretending to be like them for social media likes, career progression, etc.

Come on Doc, have you forgotten Snow? He thought he was Afro-American/Jamaican. Proper black bloke trapped in a White Canadian Western European body. In fact I'm going to play Informer now.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

You tell me how that is any different to a person experiencing gender dysmorphia

It certainly sounds like a case of body dysmorphia seeing as the cosmetic surgery seems to have met his needs. I used to think that gender dysmorphia was comparable to body dysmorphias like anorexia and such and could be fixed but I don't think the evidence supports this. The right approach is to let gd be gd. Unlike anorexia or bulimia, no one gets hurt from transitioning, at least in a world where people have respect and tolerance.

I (sorta) agree with the principles here but the same argument can be made, and has been made by TERFs fighting for equality in a patriarchal society. Why would a man who has now transitioned into a woman understand the lived experiences of a woman?

In this instance I'm speaking of the race fakers specifically. As far as I know, trans person has a trans experience. Until they start transitioning they only have that. Only when they are able to live as their perceived gender would they begin to gain some of the lived experience of that gender.

The other thing is, not every case in the USA is about career advancement or academic credibility. There's many examples of even celebrities who you could make a case for being 'transracial'. There's people in everyday society who identify with another race or culture and 'live' it without going to the extremes of the guy above.

The celebrity examples are certainly about career advancement. The few cases I've seen it is their manager or record company telling them 'you need to look more urban, it'll increase your market share/sales'.

Living it is one thing, using it to advance your interests over others with a legitimate claim to that ancestry and the voices it speaks for, especially in the case of the anthropologist, is dishonest, wrong and harmful.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Come on Doc, have you forgotten Snow? He thought he was Afro-American/Jamaican. Proper black bloke trapped in a White Canadian Western European body. In fact I'm going to play Informer now.

Etobicoke is a special place, Spoons. He just grew up in a place with a blend of cultures that accepted everyone.

 

[Sweet Square]

Is this any different to people who are transgender? There’s obviously a feeling of identity to another group which isn’t inherent or native to the individual. But in the case of transgender it’s encouraged to transition. In the case of transracials it’s consider abnormal. Where is the line drawn?

Transgenderism is a radical choice one that appears to people as essential. Changing a ethic identity form isn’t.

 

[Ted Lasso]

The concept of gender is not meaningless at birth. In fact, if you had 10 different babies of varying colours you’d be able to identify all of their genders and not all of their races.

I believe you're referring to "sex" not "gender". The latter is pretty unanimously considered a social construct. Point stands otherwise.

 

[stw2022]

I believe you're referring to "sex" not "gender". The latter is pretty unanimously considered a social construct. Point stands otherwise.

So someone in your view cannot change sex?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Transgenderism is a radical choice one that appears to people as essential. Changing a ethic identity form isn’t.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Maybe when Zizek was a young man. Not now though. Not when more and more people are sitting on the fence and opting to be non-binary. That doesn’t fit with some sort of radical, essential choice.

 

[Spoony]

I believe you're referring to "sex" not "gender". The latter is pretty unanimously considered a social construct. Point stands otherwise.

Why do we even need the term then? Why not just 'sex'? I think most people think gender and sex are the same thing.

 

[Halftrack]

So someone in your view cannot change sex?

Can't wait to see what kind of insanely transphobic angle you're playing here.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

The concept of gender is not meaningless at birth. In fact, if you had 10 different babies of varying colours you’d be able to identify all of their genders and not all of their races.

Well, seeing as newborn babies don't even identify as their own human (as opposed to being part of their mother) it's unlikely that they would be able to identify as a male or female gender.

 

[SilentWitness]

Why do we even need the term then? Why not just 'sex'? I think most people think gender and sex are the same thing.

because they’re different thinhs s and why don’t people who think they’re the same educate themselves as to why they’re not?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Every now and then it strikes me as a bit mad how quickly we’ve moved on from the notion that gender is a social construct we inflict on children against their will to it being this powerful and immutable internal sense of identity that kids are born with and must not be suppressed. That’s a hell of a u turn in a very short space of time. You can see why a lot of people get confused about this stuff.

 

[Spoony]

because they’re different thinhs s and why don’t people who think they’re the same educate themselves as to why they’re not?

Yes, they're different but why do we need the term 'gender'? I'm getting my head around it all.

 

[Bobade]

Yes, they're different but why do we need the term 'gender'? I'm getting my head around it all.

I'm struggling with this aspect of it myself. I wouldn't say I identify with a gender. I was just born male. I understand some people do identify with a gender and that's obviously up to them, but what is it they are identifying with ?

When it's someone who has gender dysphoria/feels as if they were born in the wrong body etc, I understand that. But it's said now that a lot of trans people don't have dysphoria, so I'm unclear on what aspect of being a gender they are identifying with.

 

[Ted Lasso]

So someone in your view cannot change sex?

Why do we even need the term then? Why not just 'sex'? I think most people think gender and sex are the same thing.

Na na na .. both of you take a giant step back to what @The Corinthian said. That is ALL I am referring to. If you're marking off what a newborn is by sight walking thru a hospital then that is referring to sex. That's all I'm pointing out.

Everything else your asking is beyond the scope the specific clarification I made. Please don't take a factual comment and turn it into something more.

 

[The Corinthian]

Well, seeing as newborn babies don't even identify as their own human (as opposed to being part of their mother) it's unlikely that they would be able to identify as a male or female gender.

There’s no separation of sex and gender for babies, so their sex is their gender. What you're suggesting, which is nonsensical, is that all babies are non-binary.

 

[nimic]

Every now and then it strikes me as a bit mad how quickly we’ve moved on from the notion that gender is a social construct we inflict on children against their will to it being this powerful and immutable internal sense of identity that kids are born with and must not be suppressed. That’s a hell of a u turn in a very short space of time. You can see why a lot of people get confused about this stuff.

I very much doubt the people who get the most confused about trans issues are the ones who believed the notion that gender is a social construct we inflict on children. In fact, I'd argue that the people who were already receptive to the idea that gender is a social construct are presicely the sort of people who are more willing to accept concepts like trans, non-binary, gender fluid, etc.

 

[The Corinthian]

I believe you're referring to "sex" not "gender". The latter is pretty unanimously considered a social construct. Point stands otherwise.

See my above point to PvdG.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

There’s no separation of sex and gender for babies, so their sex is their gender. What you're suggesting, which is nonsensical, is that all babies are non-binary.

Gender and sex have different definitions. Biological sex is a physical / genetical definition, gender is something you identify as, so if you don't have an identity yet, you can't have a gender.

People can assume someone's gender, based on their biological sex, but it's only the people themselves that can say what they identify as. Other people do not decide your identity

 

[The Corinthian]

Gender and sex have different definitions. Biological sex is a physical / genetical definition, gender is something you identify as, so if you don't have an identity yet, you can't have a gender.

People can assume someone's gender, based on their biological sex, but it's only the people themselves that can say what they identify as. Other people do not decide your identity

We're talking about babies here. Babies are unable to identify as anything, but that doesn't mean they don't have a gender. It means that their gender is their sex.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

We're talking about babies here. Babies are unable to identify as anything, but that doesn't mean they don't have a gender. It means that their gender is their sex.

No, it means that they have a sex. They will realize their identity later in life. Once they identify, they have an identity, until that point, all they have is potential gender.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I very much doubt the people who get the most confused about trans issues are the ones who believed the notion that gender is a social construct we inflict on children. In fact, I'd argue that the people who were already receptive to the idea that gender is a social construct are pre the sort of people who are more willing to accept concepts like trans, non-binary, gender fluid, etc.

I don’t think it’s binary (arf!) There are a hell of a lot of people who out there who were willing to give up long-held beliefs about gender roles in an effort to be more progressive. I also think these people are more likely to get confused about the various nuances than conservatives who refuse to even acknowledge a difference between sex and gender.

I know that because I’m one of them. I have a son and a daughter and was quite careful not to do what previous generations might have done and dress the boy in blue, not let him play with dolls, bake stuff instead of playing football with the girl, call the girl bossy boots while the boy is just being assertive etc etc. So it’s a leap to go from that to a notion that there are clearly defined and hardwired gender categories that both of them will feel internally, no matter how I rear them.

It’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The goalposts move all the time and we have to roll with it. It is quite a u turn though. So it’s not unreasonable for a lot of people to find it all quite confusing.

 

[The Corinthian]

No, it means that they have a sex. They will realize their identity later in life. Once they identify, they have an identity, until that point, all they have is potential gender.

No that’s wrong but we’re going round in circles now. They have a gender, and it’s considered the same as their sex.