A club this size should be going for everything. We aren't relegation candidates, we are supposedly, according the the clubs PR, one of the biggest clubs in the world.
"Who cares about cups?"
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
- Start date
I never want us to lose, but it’s hard to get excited about the cups. It’s not a logical thought, just that feeling deep down. I can’t MAKE myself excited for them, and I’m just not. CL yes, anything else, not really (unless it’s the final). I get far more down when we lose in the league than when we lose in a cup. I think seeing teams like Chelsea and City constantly get piss easy draws while we always play a decent side, reminds me how much luck is involved in cups and subconsciously devalues the whole thing. I’m not consciously deciding I don’t care so much about them, but it’s just my gut reaction that I don’t. Weird one. CL is an obvious exception.
Î don't mean it just in terms of mindset, I don't deny that there's a hierarchy of competitions.
But I wonder if it's actually rooted in reality that good performances in the cup are accompanied with weaker performances in the league or vice versa. I don't think that's actually what happens, I think that momentum is a huge factor in footballing performances, and losing momentum by, say, losing a cup game or even just approaching it half-heartedly, will be detrimental to your league performances too.
Oh this thread gonna be great for the future. You bunch were drooling after EL win that pushed us ahead of Liverpool in total throphy count at the time but its not important now. feck winning a throphy, top 4 is were cool kids are at, just in our case we dont mingle with top dogs, more like at some corner with tail between our legs but hey at least we are in the same yard with them.
Also, giving examples like LvG sacking, it was deserved from fans PoV but he was sacked by those cnuts that have top 4 ambition only, just enough so they can leech money out of that competition. Why is that familiar, ah yes, Arsenal model, get into top 4 celebrate it like you won something, next season go through grp stage and then get spanked 10-2 on agg. by a proper football club, rinse and repeat next year.
What happened with shitting on Poch about him not being a winner due all those failures to win CC or FA cup? Wonder if different manager is in charge now, would people turn those semi final fails into knifes.
Also, giving examples like LvG sacking, it was deserved from fans PoV but he was sacked by those cnuts that have top 4 ambition only, just enough so they can leech money out of that competition. Why is that familiar, ah yes, Arsenal model, get into top 4 celebrate it like you won something, next season go through grp stage and then get spanked 10-2 on agg. by a proper football club, rinse and repeat next year.
What happened with shitting on Poch about him not being a winner due all those failures to win CC or FA cup? Wonder if different manager is in charge now, would people turn those semi final fails into knifes.
I think winning trophies puts your players in a better place mentally to win more trophies later on. I always felt once we won things (be it the champions League or the league cup even), our players approach improved to games - we were visibly less anxious in the closing stages of games, particularly future finals.
You missed out the third part of those options:
A 2nd place finish and NO cups - which I think would veer more towards a disappointment and not a great season.
I agree you can't just take winning a cup as a great season if you finish in a comparatively poor league position. But I don't think you can take it as a great season for a club like United if you finish top 4 but trophy less - especially when the number of years without a trophy are adding up.
As one of the biggest and richest clubs in the world then we should be able to assemble a squad that allows us to compete for trophies in the league and cups. Same as the likes of City and the other top teams in respective countries. Poor management and / or squad assemblage may have hindered us in recent years, but we're getting back on track and have enough in this squad to secure a top 4 place without sacrificing the FA Cup or EL this season. It really shouldn't be an either / or.
I agree that some games we seem to come out half arsed, now is that down to the players attitude that they can just stroll through some games, or has the coaches unwittingly instilled that attitude. People saying it is great when we go out of a cup are lowering the standards of this club, it has been going on since SAF left. It is a rebuilding process, well if they were my builders I would be mightly angry, yet fans just seem to accept the unacceptable. Winning games should breed confidence and it is up to the players and management to keep those standards high.
It's a poor attitude and it's important for the mentality of the club and the players to aim to win trophies. I think we should be focusing just as hard on cup competitions, even harder in our previous years when winning the league wasn't possible. We need a winners mentality, we need players who have lifted trophies in our colours and want that to happen again. Have you ever seen players unhappy to win a trophy?
Also it's makes good business sense. Clubs who win trophies get recognition, people remember the names that win trophies, it helps enforce the brand. That will help with sponsorship deals, and also transfers. If you're flopping out of the cups and scraping 4th place, you seem like an Arsenal in the last years of Wenger. It's not an attractive look, the best players look at that and think "i don't want to waste my prime years at a club without ambition". If you're winning trophies, it glosses over that a little.
Also it's makes good business sense. Clubs who win trophies get recognition, people remember the names that win trophies, it helps enforce the brand. That will help with sponsorship deals, and also transfers. If you're flopping out of the cups and scraping 4th place, you seem like an Arsenal in the last years of Wenger. It's not an attractive look, the best players look at that and think "i don't want to waste my prime years at a club without ambition". If you're winning trophies, it glosses over that a little.
nobody recalls fa cup victories with the same regard as leagues and CL wins, they just don't. it's a slightly lesser tier than the other two. as a major club, our ambition has to be on the major tournaments. it doesn't mean we don't care at all about second tier cups, but it's just placing their importance according to their stature.
Apologies for the misunderstanding, I wasn't actually refering to Man United, just in general. As for your club, you are doing very well in the cup this year aren't you?
Making it past two very strong PL opponents already in those early rounds sure does not look like sign to me that your team isn't taking the competition seriously. It sure looks like you're fully competing, and doing well.
And you're also doing well in the league, as a whole, so again in my view I would consider the synergy between competitions more apparent than the friction.
Literally any cup we can win I care about. Been to FA Cup finals and league cup finals. Losing them is heartbreaking winning them is euphoric. I think the CL has tricked a lot of people into thinking cups aren’t important. It’s why we support football clubs. Not to get top four.
Yes we are doing well in the cups, we now need to take that step into a final, then it is just down to who plays better on the day. We cannot become the perennial semi-finalist. I think I am still a bit rankled by how we went out of the CL and landed back in the EL. The group was there for the taking. Sorry.
We have done well in cups in last 4-5 years, haven't won anything in last 2-3 years but we have reached Semi finals and finals.
2015-16 - FA cup winners.
2016-17 - League cup winners, Europa league winners, FA cup lost to Chelsea away.
2017-18 - FA cup finals lost to Chelsea, humiliated in league cup.
2018-19 - Lost in QFs of FA cup IIRC, too many hard draws. Won Arsenal away, Chelsea away but finally lost to Wolves away.
2019-20 - Semi finals in league cup lost to City, Semi finals of FA cup lost to City, Semi finals of Europa league lost to Sevilla.
2020-21 - Semi finals in league cup lost to City, QF of FA cup.
City and Chelsea have been pain in the arse.
The importance of the cups rises relative to our position in the league: The lower down the league we get the more important the cups get. Its that simple.
We can still win the league. City are pilling up fixtures and you can be sure that the owners want the Champions League so they could get to May exhausted. If we can keep fresh, by sacrificing the cups, we could edge the league as long as we don't let City build up too big a lead.
So if you ask me do I want to beat Sociedad next week or win in the league. I say the league every f'n time. If we were 4th and out of the title race I'd feel differently. As long as we have hope in the league though the Cups are irrelevant.
We can still win the league. City are pilling up fixtures and you can be sure that the owners want the Champions League so they could get to May exhausted. If we can keep fresh, by sacrificing the cups, we could edge the league as long as we don't let City build up too big a lead.
So if you ask me do I want to beat Sociedad next week or win in the league. I say the league every f'n time. If we were 4th and out of the title race I'd feel differently. As long as we have hope in the league though the Cups are irrelevant.
City are a definite pain, because they have money to spend at will, but also because in their eyes the more trophies they win the higher their profile in world football. We have to make sure we get the players in with the winning attitude to get us over the line. Nobody cares about losers, if you keep losing you eventually become a laughing stock.
I don't think the FA cup has ever recovered from us dropping out of it one season to accommodate some mickey mouse world competition 1999-2000 season.
I want us to win something this year, but not necessarily for the act itself, but so that it could be another thing ticked off by Ole and one less thing for the moaners to complain about while we're undergoing the process of the rebuild.
An FA Cup didn't save LvG, and even a cup double wasn't enough of a foundation for Jose to build on, so if you gave me the option of having 3 fallow years followed by strong success as opposed to some success in the cups but not much beyond that, I'd take the former option rather than the latter.
Of course, in an ideal world, it would be both and my hope is that if Ole did win something this season, that it would be the springboard to even greater success, but it's not the be all and end all for me. Look at Klopp for instance, other than his first half season in charge, he has tossed off every domestic cup in favour of the CL and the PL. Do you reckon the mickeys are crying into their shell suits because they haven't won either of them under him?
An FA Cup didn't save LvG, and even a cup double wasn't enough of a foundation for Jose to build on, so if you gave me the option of having 3 fallow years followed by strong success as opposed to some success in the cups but not much beyond that, I'd take the former option rather than the latter.
Of course, in an ideal world, it would be both and my hope is that if Ole did win something this season, that it would be the springboard to even greater success, but it's not the be all and end all for me. Look at Klopp for instance, other than his first half season in charge, he has tossed off every domestic cup in favour of the CL and the PL. Do you reckon the mickeys are crying into their shell suits because they haven't won either of them under him?
The height of arrogance
Top four alone is pointless if you're not good enough to challenge for the CL. There are financial benefits, but in terms of being a fan, you're most likely just going to see your team get completely outplayed at one point.
I wouldn't say finishing top four alone is a good season, especially if it goes on for a while.
I wouldn't say finishing top four alone is a good season, especially if it goes on for a while.
If we were genuine and consistent title contenders then I’d understand that logic but we’re not at the moment and we’re a club that needs success so if that means a cup win to continue that winning mentality then that’s fine by me.
No extra time, all PL teams play away from home unless playing another PL team. No semifinals at Wembley. Increase the prize money.
It's secondary but the domestic cups are still worthwhile. I honestly couldn't give a shit about Europa unless we play the youngsters and i can really will them on.
As for the OPs points about calls for just playing youth or the second string. I think it's just a matter of where you can take the risk, playing youth and squad players in early rounds is on balance a good decision and low risk. Once you hit the quarters then you play your better players.
As for the OPs points about calls for just playing youth or the second string. I think it's just a matter of where you can take the risk, playing youth and squad players in early rounds is on balance a good decision and low risk. Once you hit the quarters then you play your better players.
It's exactly the other way around for me. The domestic cups are mostly just... more games against the teams we play twice every season anyway. I'd much rather see Anderlecht or Real Sociedad than fecking Wolves or Everton over and over again. We might end up playing Everton four times this season.
Yeah that's a valid point and I'd agree in regards to the novelty being perhaps more entertaining on individuals games.
I just can't care about winning a second rate competition unless we do it with our lesser players so it actually represents a good achievement for them. I'd probably celebrate it like a champions league win if it was with a young team.
The PL and the CL are the two 'big dog' silverware trophies these days, such that other Cup wins; FA, ELC, Europa, are nice, but they don't replace the real thing.
That said, when you are trying to build a team/squad with a 'winning mentality', Cup success is very important, and that is not just getting to semi-finals, it is going the whole way.
In fact getting to four semi's is impressive, but losing out in all four confirms we still haven't found that winning mentality/finding a way to win capability... just yet!
That said, when you are trying to build a team/squad with a 'winning mentality', Cup success is very important, and that is not just getting to semi-finals, it is going the whole way.
In fact getting to four semi's is impressive, but losing out in all four confirms we still haven't found that winning mentality/finding a way to win capability... just yet!
I agree with this take.
I do feel that the FA Cup is a good tournament. I wish the US Open Cup had the same importance here in the States. But the EFL Cup is redundant and less prestigious and I don't think PL teams should participate for that reason.
Europa League is a different animal - it's still European football, giving real competition in a venue outside of the PL, and offers an avenue into the CL (though top four is the more legitimate route).
But winning the FA Cup or EFL Cup and finishing outside the top-4? That would be disappointing.
At this point, though, I'd say finishing outside the top-4 would be disappointing regardless of cups. Winning the Europa League might salve some of that hurt, but seriously, top-4 is ours to lose at this point.
This is my opinion also.
Actually it's the chance to see some experimentation with the tactics and formation as well as back up and youth players given the opportunity to play their way into contention for a first team place and that makes me enjoy cup games.
Let's not forget that it's these fixtures that were the platform for some of our current first team players to make the transition from a youth player to a trusted senior player.
Let's not forget that it's these fixtures that were the platform for some of our current first team players to make the transition from a youth player to a trusted senior player.
Scrap the league cup.
Scrap the 4tg place for CL.
Give the FA cup that 4th CL place.
Then you will see the magic return of the FA cup. Will be like the 80s.
My greatest memories of Utd were in that completion .
Whiteside volley in the 83 semi against Arsenal, Wilkins Curler, Robsons 30 yarder against the Scousers In the 85 semi.
Whiteside 85 winner
Robins winner at forest
LEE Martin wonder strike .
Would love the FA cup to be like that now.
Scrap the 4tg place for CL.
Give the FA cup that 4th CL place.
Then you will see the magic return of the FA cup. Will be like the 80s.
My greatest memories of Utd were in that completion .
Whiteside volley in the 83 semi against Arsenal, Wilkins Curler, Robsons 30 yarder against the Scousers In the 85 semi.
Whiteside 85 winner
Robins winner at forest
LEE Martin wonder strike .
Would love the FA cup to be like that now.
I don't think that's the real issue.
The truth is society has changed and football has changed.
We all remember when FA Cup final coverage started just after the breakfast news and went all the way until tea. FA Cup final day was a major event.
But back in those days there was less choice on TV. It was more common for the whole country to get together and watch the same few channels and the same stuff on them. The FA Cup final was a TV tradition that the 21st century broke. We got more channels, then pay TV services, then streaming services, different generations that are used to watching what they want when they want to. Not sitting from 10am until 6pm, watching features on Nat Lofthouse and Stanley Matthews.
Then there's European Champions League. When the European football ban was lifted European football gained some mythical significance. Being back at the top table of European football after five years away made it feel new, exciting, special. The profile and prestige of European competition has only grown since the Champions League rebrand in the 90s too. Increasingly the big teams look at the domestic cups as things that get in the way of European progress. If you had an FA Cup quarter final one week and a Champions League quarter final midweek you'd prioritise the Champions League. There is more glory in it.
I think these two things have been the biggest factors in how we see the cups.
The fa cup lost a lot of it's prestige when they started doing the semi final ties at Wembley, it killed the big occasion feeling of the final at Wembley.
I have old fashioned views on this. I want to win the cups, particularly when they are the only thing that we have even a sniff of winning.
I find cup matches boring as they lack the same intensity as the league. It's rare that we play poorly in the league but bad cup matches are like a twice/thrice-yearly occurance.
I'd say it's the same with most PL teams now as nobody prioritising it. I mean look at how crap West Ham also were on Tuesday despite them doing really well in the league.
Obviously yay if we're in the final but it's a festival of snore until that point
I'd say it's the same with most PL teams now as nobody prioritising it. I mean look at how crap West Ham also were on Tuesday despite them doing really well in the league.
Obviously yay if we're in the final but it's a festival of snore until that point
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Actually winning something is what matters to me. I guess it is what it is with fans just wanting money and sign fancy big names players.
Actual performance comes in second place and actually doing something with what you got.
I care about all cups and always have. CL is the biggest thing to win, but all cups can give great joy.
Seeing Man City win it all would hurt me deeply far more than Liverpool getting a few league wins.
Although I feel hurt already so maybe it is the next step making every year worse than the previous year post SAF.
Actual performance comes in second place and actually doing something with what you got.
I care about all cups and always have. CL is the biggest thing to win, but all cups can give great joy.
Seeing Man City win it all would hurt me deeply far more than Liverpool getting a few league wins.
Although I feel hurt already so maybe it is the next step making every year worse than the previous year post SAF.
We need a cup win end of
Isn’t it so obvious. We want EPL and UCL and we have already won EFL, FA, EL in the last 7 years, we want something bigger now, the main ones. We won’t get anywhere if we are aiming for just Mickey Mouse trophies, make progress every season in the league is the most important one right now. Cup trophies are just for consolation now.
To be clear winning the League isn't good enough for a club of this size.
It's fine to only win the league if you are City or Chelsea but we are Manchester United.
Every year we must try to win the treble. Either we succed or have glorious failure
It's fine to only win the league if you are City or Chelsea but we are Manchester United.
Every year we must try to win the treble. Either we succed or have glorious failure
I think it is pretty obvious that virtually all the Prem teams put out a competitive but not their best team in the early and mid rounds of the domestic competition and then if they make it to the quarters they put out a stronger side because it only takes three games to win the trophy.
As I have stated before that there is no excuse for any of the big teams not to honour the integrity of the competition as they have huge squads and can make five subs in a game. Back in the day teams would play in the three competitions with small squads and have one sub and play on shocking surfaces and add replays on top of that......Give me a break!!!!
As I have stated before that there is no excuse for any of the big teams not to honour the integrity of the competition as they have huge squads and can make five subs in a game. Back in the day teams would play in the three competitions with small squads and have one sub and play on shocking surfaces and add replays on top of that......Give me a break!!!!
It's a good job Fergie didn't have the same mindset as some on here. 94-96-99 would never have happened. Of course you go out to win as much as you can. Imagine chucking a quarter or semi because you are 3 points off top spot then still fail to win the league. Who remembers a manager who finishes 4th over a manager who won the cup for their team? Players want big salaries and trophies as well. There is no 2nd 3rd or 4th place trophy in the PL.
You make the FA Cup an automatic CL place, then it will get the respect it deserves.