Agree with most but you might wanna check on Wenger's record a bit because he wasn't some unknown quantity plucked from Japan , he actually meets most of criterion listed by OP .
Who replaces Ten Hag?
- Thread starter Plant0x84
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I think we can all agree that ETH is mediocre at transfers and should have limited input into that in future. But the club is even worse so that needs to be fixed too.
Does that mean he is a bad coach? Not necessarily.
Being in the room doesn't mean he is solely responsible. The problem here is we have lazy posters saying HE pissed away 400m as an indictment of wanting him sacked. I don't think they've bothered to read on the structure or how the deals even went down:
The bolded bits you refer to are not untrue. They are outlined by the Athletic. We had an internal cap on Mount that Murtough broke, despite holding the cards. We also knew Hojlund was told his price tag and we couldn't negotiate well enough to get near that price. I've quoted them below :
In Dec 23 from Athletic on Mount:
"Internally, the price set for Mount was £40m because he had only a year left on his Chelsea contract, but that was the first offer Chelsea received. United’s bidding rose 50 per cent to a total of £55m plus £5m in add-ons."
Athletic on Hojlund :
"Atalanta had told Hojlund he could leave for £50m, and United communicated they would draw the line at £60m, but then agreed a fee worth £72m during all-day talks in Bergamo that lasted until 3am. Atalanta had demanded £86m for a player they signed for less than £15m just 11 months earlier"
Because a lot of posters accuse any context as being ten hag fanboys, let's just park the manager situation all together and acknowledge that the structure is essentially setting up managers to fail. The money saved from proper negotiation on two deals could have funded two other positions alone. Shitty targets and shitty deals are issues long before ten hag became our coach.
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I agree with what you said.
However, whether you are ETH in or out, I think we can both agree that even if he isn't the guy to take us back to the top, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be pursuing similar type of appointments. Most of the current upcoming managers tipped to be the next big thing have a similar status to ETH at Ajax. Consistent, good results, attractive football, etc. looking to make the next step in their managerial career. I believe that's the sort of manager we should go for, if we do part ways with our current one, and there are plenty of options out there who fit the criteria, though no standout candidate like a Mourinho in 2004, for example.
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Roberto de Zerbi is an anagram of Bert boozier Red. More off-field drama we can do without.
I do know he won things at Monaco, but if a 46 year old Arsene Wenger was appointed to manage United today, it would be met with a lot of skepticism from both United and rival fans. He didn't really have the credentials of one of the best managers in the world at that point either, and yet the next 8 years were a very successful period in Arsenal's history.
wait, so they told Rasmus he could leave for 50 mil.
Why did we even mention 'the max is 60m' then? that's already 10m over?
And then, we somehow negotiated them into asking for more?
This is my issue. There's a lot of grating on the manager for money spent but not a lot of reading into the deals.
I’m glad somebody gets this. Give Erik another season, with a proper hierarchy of support from people who know what they are doing and are on the same page strategically. Then he can be judged fairly. Until then any move to replace him is knee jerk and unnecessarily damaging to the clubs progress.
I would agree with this, yes. But we all know that once a United manager with a less than glowing CV hits a bad patch with results then that CV will be used to batter them until they are out of a job. Especially in the current media landscape with social media.
Erik needs sacking. He is a complete fool. He has no idea what he is doing or talking about. The basics are not there, his coaching is obviously atrocious. We need a fresh start
Lack of clear options? This simply not true. I agree that those that have been linked to us more frequently in the media, such as Potter and De Zerbi, are such underwhelming options. But there is at least two potential candidates out there, with one being the clear favourite in my opinion, that could take on this job and bring success. When looking for our next manager/head coach, I think it's important to look at others that have brought success. Sir Alex Ferguson had character, personality and a clear philosophy. He broke the dominance in Scotland while also having success in Europe. The same can be said for other managers/head coaches such as Klopp, but obviously not on the same level. But his style of play brought Dortmund a lot of success, and his character and personality captivated his players. Rúben Amorim should be under consideration. He meets the criteria and is proving his worth in Portugal. Not so much in Europe however.
But the clear favourite, and the one candidate we should be doing as much as we can to get, is Simone Inzaghi. Why our fans are not talking about him as the clear favourite is honestly so baffling to me, I really don't understand it. I can't help but think of Silvio Dante's quote from The Sopranos. "I'll tell you what it is, it's anti-Italian discrimination, that's what it is." He not only did a fantastic job with what was a struggling Lazio team, but is now working his magic with a now dominant Inter Milan. When the season is complete, he would have won EVERY trophy there is to win in Italy, while also reaching last years Champions League final and probably should have won against a highly acclaimed City side. He is doing this with players such as Darmian, Luaku, Sanchez etc. Players who were previously considered castoffs by us, and other teams. Not to mention he is breaking records with this side. They are currently scoring high in most noteworthy metrics across the top five European leagues, in scoring, possession, and defence. He is also doing while playing arguably the most exciting style of football in Europe. Simone Inzaghi is by far the best candidate for this job.
But the clear favourite, and the one candidate we should be doing as much as we can to get, is Simone Inzaghi. Why our fans are not talking about him as the clear favourite is honestly so baffling to me, I really don't understand it. I can't help but think of Silvio Dante's quote from The Sopranos. "I'll tell you what it is, it's anti-Italian discrimination, that's what it is." He not only did a fantastic job with what was a struggling Lazio team, but is now working his magic with a now dominant Inter Milan. When the season is complete, he would have won EVERY trophy there is to win in Italy, while also reaching last years Champions League final and probably should have won against a highly acclaimed City side. He is doing this with players such as Darmian, Luaku, Sanchez etc. Players who were previously considered castoffs by us, and other teams. Not to mention he is breaking records with this side. They are currently scoring high in most noteworthy metrics across the top five European leagues, in scoring, possession, and defence. He is also doing while playing arguably the most exciting style of football in Europe. Simone Inzaghi is by far the best candidate for this job.
It's just mental.
We were aware that they told our target the asking price. 50 mil. Simple.
Then, big boy United Negotiators rock up "Hi lads, why settle for 50mil, when we're willing to pay in excess of 80-90mil. You guys are mugs!"
I can't..
Speaking of Wenger, he once said he treated Arsenal’s money as if it were his own. If a price for a player went too high, he’d tell the club not to proceed. Similarly, Sir Alex maintained that he wouldn’t sign a player for the sake of it if there’s no value in the market.
I don’t see why ETH gets a free pass because of our awful negotiating. He still played a huge role in identifying and signing off the players. I am not adamantly on the ETH out side but some people give him far too easy get out of jail passes. Just like the injuries excuse, despite lots of reports that we got pre season very wrong.
Many forget, too, that ETH insisted on having such control over transfers in his contract. I don’t see how he doesn’t deserve a large amount of blame.
Tactically we’re absolutely terrible too. Are people really expecting the master plan will just click one day and everything will be great? I don’t see it, nor do most people with way more tactical knowledge than me. At least when Klopp’s early Liverpool was struggling, there were clear signs of what he was trying to achieve in terms of signings and style of play. Plus his personality commanded trust and respect.
Although some of the criticism of Erik is shallow, one can’t really argue that he has anywhere near the gravitas of Klopp. He used to at least convince me by his honesty and integrity but his press responses and statements recently have come across like a bad politician with weak lies and spin, so I don’t warm to him as much as a result.
I don’t see why ETH gets a free pass because of our awful negotiating. He still played a huge role in identifying and signing off the players. I am not adamantly on the ETH out side but some people give him far too easy get out of jail passes. Just like the injuries excuse, despite lots of reports that we got pre season very wrong.
Many forget, too, that ETH insisted on having such control over transfers in his contract. I don’t see how he doesn’t deserve a large amount of blame.
Tactically we’re absolutely terrible too. Are people really expecting the master plan will just click one day and everything will be great? I don’t see it, nor do most people with way more tactical knowledge than me. At least when Klopp’s early Liverpool was struggling, there were clear signs of what he was trying to achieve in terms of signings and style of play. Plus his personality commanded trust and respect.
Although some of the criticism of Erik is shallow, one can’t really argue that he has anywhere near the gravitas of Klopp. He used to at least convince me by his honesty and integrity but his press responses and statements recently have come across like a bad politician with weak lies and spin, so I don’t warm to him as much as a result.
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ETH had 10 years experience as a coach and another 10 as a manager before he joined us, so was very experienced.
So he probably shouldn't hit a bad patch
More seriously: I don't even think it matters. If it's a young manager, than he will be battered due to his inexeperience, if it's an old one he will be called "past it". There will always be over the top criticism whenever United hits a bad patch. The narrative will change depending on who is currently managing, but the pressure will be on anyway, so I just wouldn't worry about it.
Yes. I didn't say that I agree with those people, quite contrary I think they are deluded.
I refuse to accept he failed at Chelsea, they are a shitshow bigger than we are pre INEOS.
Potter did very well at Brighton and a fair few people here were waxing lyrical over him, and Poch for that matter who is now doing worse than Potter.
Very difficult to not have a bad patch at this club, with that set of players. Just look at the managers we have churned through. Agreed though, just win all the time.So he probably shouldn't hit a bad patch
More seriously: I don't even think it matters. If it's a young manager, than he will be battered due to his inexeperience, if it's an old one he will be called "past it". There will always be over the top criticism whenever United hits a bad patch. The narrative will change depending on who is currently managing, but the pressure will be on anyway, so I just wouldn't worry about it.
A young manager is less likely to have the experience of riding out the bad moments, and media management is such a key part of the job at United now too.
You are right, but I wouldn't be surprised if a young manager has a better grip on modern (social) media stuff than an older one. And anyway charisma beats age every day.
Like I said Sir Jim is not waiting when he’s already gone on record for saying he’s in a hurry, he’s 71 he does not have that time to afford a young upcoming manager so your opinions although valid are completely wide of the mark because we are not recruiting a Carrick or McKenna to rebuild United or even the Girona manager ?
Just look at his track record at Nice, he is not putting Berada, Ashworth, Wilcox and Dougie Freedman to have a young novice manager now is he ?
Who cares. The club has to look at the performances and whether the project is going somewhere or not. Cut the noise out and focus on what matters.
Like Edu and Arsenal did when Arteta lost 7 out of 10 league games, winning just 1 (against us at OT
)It's very worrying for a manager to be so wrong about players he's actually worked with. It shows his analysis of players isn't amazing, and if that's the case then that can be an issue in other ways as a manager. If he can't recognise the qualities and weaknesses of players, how can he implement a tactical plan properly? How can he assess opposition players and how to play them? And this isn't just a theory, there is proof of this when you watch us play.
Yeah those quotes don't match what you are claiming though. It just tells us that we went in low and agreed a higher fee eventually. It was public knowledge how much each of those players were going to cost, roughly, and that is what we paid. You're interpreting that we had hour long discussions that resulted in us just increasing our offer by £12m without prompt for Hojlund. In not a fan of Murtough but that obviously didn't happen. If we want a player and they will only sell at a certain price, then we move on or pay up. Even I said in the summer when the initial fees for both were rumored, that there was no way they'd accept that from us as they know we're desperate. I didn't think anybody believed it until now.
Sorry how does the quotes not match what I am saying. The quotes literally state that our internal price for mount was £40m. And Murtough just smashed through that.
It also said that Hojlunds price was £50m and our ceiling was £60m. And Murtough smashed through that.
I did not insinuate that Murtough rushed any transaction. I'm saying he was shite for weeks at negotiating.
Also I disagree with your insinuation that we paid a lot out of circumstance. We will be desperate for quality this summer but you can bet your house Omar Berrada will broker better deals than Murtough did.
How is this even up for debate? Inzaghi took Inter to last years Champions League final and they are currently 15 points clear at top of Serie A (1 defeat all season). de Zerbi has won 5 of his last 21 league matches.
I agree it's a weak point. But I see a lot of good in him. So many of our players just got worse and worse under every previous manager. For the first time I see players getting better. Not all, but enough. So I think he is a good coach. I just wouldn't let him pick the players until he's better used to the EPL.
Anyway it's academic. He's obviously getting sacked, which I regret. The decision was made before the City game. If Hojlund got injured thanks to ETH's high intensity training regime at a time when we couldn't afford to lose him, he only has himself to blame.
Fundamentally this is true, yes. We just have to hope that the new decision makers at the club are an upgrade on the previous ones.Who cares. The club has to look at the performances and whether the project is going somewhere or not. Cut the noise out and focus on what matters.
Like Edu and Arsenal did when Arteta lost 7 out of 10 league games, winning just 1 (against us at OT
Does he play three at the back? Never been a fan of it but tbh we're so underwhelming at full back that I wouldn't be against it anymore. Particularly if we had a competent midfield for once.
de Zerbi plays more of the like of "soccer" that X users enjoy
That’s because he is, you could argue De Zerbi plays more attacking football but that isn’t always a good thing. Inzaghi plays attractive football but while still being compact and his teams don’t concede an awful lot of goals where as De Zerbi team can get battered from time to time.
I'll take Inzaghi ahead of De Zerbi. He worked with a top side, he's used to a very difficult club setup (at Lazio) and he had built a reputation of adapting to the squad in place + of polishing some turds (Darmian, Mkhitaryan)
Do you know what Inzaghi's level of English is like? How does he handle the media/press conferences?
Well, if they'll make decisions based on the general consensus among fans, then we're doomed
I seriously doubt that, though
ha, absolutely agreed there.
He should be in the top 3 candidates for the job but I’ve not really seen any strong links with him to us. Not unless he turns out to be a surprise choice by INEOS just like when they appointed Berrada from city, no leaks what so ever.
He's my no 1 guy (after the usual Ancelotti)
I think he’d offer us something different from what the others have. Not sure how fond I am of the 3-5-2 formation though, seems like most Italian managers play a back 3 which shows you there defensive first. I don’t see that with his Inter team though, they play really good football. Dominate games. With a weird midfield 3 aswell… not really a DM in his line ups.
I don't think Murtough has freedom to spend what he wants. I'm all for getting rid of the guy and don't rate him, but I doubt he's walked in there and started throwing money around on his own free will. And I struggle to believe that it wasn't communicated amongst the 'committee' that it would take more money to get these players if we wanted them. I quoted you parts of the Athletic before where it stated that Murtough's whole approach has been to give ETH what he wants, and he has convinced them to spend more money on certain players. Whether you like it or not, ETH is heavily wrapped up in the whole thing.
All of this makes me think back to the celebrations when it was reported that ETH would only take the job if he was given a lot of control over transfers. Fans loved this, and we only have ourselves to blame for not seeing this coming a mile off and being so ridiculously naïve yet again.
The irony of saying that what you’d do is switch to a double pivot while simultaneously saying you think we can do what the more progressive teams do is wild.
He’s tried to make us more progressive by pressing high and playing a #8 higher than a #6 (to enable the high press) and, in doing so, has shown the players for what they are when playing in the system top teams employ.
I do agree with you that our players are better suited to a double pivot because our pressers up-front can’t do the job and Casemiro & Mainoo don’t cover enough ground to stagger our #6 vs #8, but to claim that reverting to an Ole-style double pivot is fundamentally a more progressive style of football than pressing high is simply not true.
It ensures a lot more boring football sitting back in mid/low block and counter-attacking - same thing that’s kept us just a team fighting for 4th the last 7 years.
And as for your “lost cause” quip, I am far from certain EtH is the right guy, but I am certain these players are the wrong players. We can get on the manager merry-go-round again, or we can get serious and acknowledge none of our starting 11 (bar maybe 2) would get a sniff in the starting 11s of the top 3.