Why I prefer attractive football over winning at all costs

[Man-United]

It's fun to see the team win but it's not why we support United. But I prefer winning a final with defensive style than losing 4-3 of course.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We have.

Under Moyes we were just not good enough.

Under Van Gaal, he played own version of attacking football .

Under Jose, we have been attacking in the majority of our games. It's the big games that we have been very defensive and those tend to stick out massively. Even last season, our problem was not taking our chances because of woeful finishing. That seems to be conveniently forgotten.

Yeah, it's called defensive football.

 

[whatwha]

I don't even want to think about the derby.

Damage limitation will be the name of the game in Jose's mind. I think he's terrified of being thrashed and humiliated by a rival, that's why he sets up for 0-0s (with the outside chance of nicking a goal and winning 1-0). He's a bit of a coward.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think our midfield is getting a bit more flack that they should. Yes they have not been good but a lot of times it has been the problem of our defence and out attack. The defence hoofs it up not because there are no midfield players available. Lukaku's movement is terrible. He cannot hold the ball either and that is one of the biggest problems we face. Players like Mikhi needs the strikers to hold the ball and put on a pass for them to move to. Lukaku does not do that at all. It is not a team we have but a bunch of individual players.

 

[Cassidy]

Spurs finished 2nd last season. They scored more goals than anybody. Conceded less than everybody.
They won nothing.

How many times does that happen, seriously?

 

[Primitive]

I'm not sure why you guys are blaming Mou for doing what he does best. I mean if you have to blame anyone it should be your board - for hiring him (because if you didnt, they knew what they will get with it). If anything your board is absolutely garbage spending the monstrous resources you have, clubs with 3-4 times less resources are doing a lot better job than Ed Woodward building a squad. United will be back sooner or later, but your incompetent board is holding you back massively and Woodward has shown nothing but a lack of vision or any kind of pragmatism in his work. The same pretty much translates to Barcelona, but they at least have Messi to save them.

 

[gerdm07]

Do you not think all managers would love to play good football? No manager wants to have to set out to play dour stuff, but it's about the team available and the necessary approach. If we'd tried to play expansive, attractive football yesterday evening we'd have been 3 down in 20 minutes. I thought that was obvious just from watching the game.

We haven't got the players to play that way, and won't have until the job is finished. It's an often repeated cliche, but seeing as Jose has been here a little over 12 months I'll repeat it. We are a work in progress.

Here's the thing. Pep had a vision on how he wanted Man City to play and has stuck to it. He did not approach last season with pragmatic play and he received a lot of criticism because of this and had no success. He did not have the perfect players to play his way but he stuck with his formula and beliefs. He bought some more pieces to the puzzle over the summer and now they look like world beaters. He instilled the mentality of playing a certain way and didn't waiver from it. In essence, he sacrificed last year for success in the future.

Mou could have kept Perierra and Boorthwick-Jackson both skillful players instead of loaning them out. He could give Shaw, another skillful player, another chance to come good. He could play Martial and Rashford on the wings and scare defenses. He could instruct the defense to look to pass first before clearing (yes, sometimes you just clear).

Yesterday, Jones intercepted a pass about waist high around the box and he had a teammate (Herrera or Matic I think) about ten yards away in space in front of him. Jones proceeded to volley the ball as hard as he could down the field. Chelsea easily got the ball back and started another attack. In the same situation I'm fairly certain Stones or Otamendi would have used a cushion pass to his teammate. It was an obvious play and fairly easy to execute for any good professional.

I fear we will always be waiting for that perfect team in order to play good football.

 

[sullydnl]

It's not either/or in my mind. Approaching the game with a more proactive, constructive, skilful, attacking approach is generally the best way of trying to win. If I thought that playing attractive football would mean sacrificing success then I wouldn't be interested. In reality it would increase our chances of success.

People aren't praising the current City side for playing attractive football, they're praising them for steamrolling the opposition with attractive football. Their style of play is part of the reason they're a more effective team than us at present and that effectiveness is what really counts.

 

[King7Eric]

I couldn't agree with @amolbhatia50k more here.

For me, going into games expecting to be bored isn't winning at all. People really forget what it was like to go to games hoping to see us to play well and at least put up a fight, all those years of winning has made a us entitled. I prefer being entertained. But, as always there's a balance, I think our biggest problem is the obvious lack of a plan B. That's the real area where the lazy comparisons to SAF are well off, we knew under him if we played defensive and went a goal down the game could be changed and not over. Sure we nearly always struggled at Chelsea and played some real shit games, but it wasn't expected week in and week out.

Under our last few managers with both been boring and lacking any ideas how to change that when needed. Jose needs time and patience, sure I'm all for that. But my real concern is he has never been one to change his style or have any other plans than the one he starts the game with. There's no sign of that changing, if anything he is digging his heels in more.

Well said. People who keep harping on about how SAF had a poor record at Anfield and Stamford Bridge are completely missing the point. Under SAF, we may have set up conservatively from time to time but we always played with the intent to win, plus everyone associated with the club felt we could win. Compare that to the atmosphere now before big away games. I for one didn't really have any hope of winning before the game yesterday, at best I was expecting a 0-0 draw. And I don't think I was the only win.

The belief that the club can excel in face of adversity is getting drained from the club and that is the most damning statement of all. There is almost a helplessness whenever we face a difficult match or when a big player gets injured, its like we almost assume the worst.

SAF's legacy was not only exciting football, it was also the arrogance of the man in face of adversity. He came at a club that was 7-16 behind Liverpool in terms of titles and straightaway talking about overcoming those numbers. It was something to believe in. We need that kind of figure now, something that the club as a whole can believe in. Jose for all his arrogance when things are going well just starts lashing out and becomes bitter when they don't go well. We need him to be an inspirational figure in public for once.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

you weren't watching us away in Europe, then.

It was really on Barca in 2008 when we did that. We went away to sides like Roma, Milan and Bayern and attacked. The idea that we were very defensive under Ferguson during his last years as the manager is a complete myth on here. If anything defense was our biggest issue during those years.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

First of all, perhaps not in the last three/four years when they started to dominate the FA cup, but prior to that, in their long streak without a trophy the consistently played some beautiful football.

Secondly, look at Brenden Rodgers's 2nd place Liverpool side, or even Klopp's current Liverpool side. Both teams play/played really aesthetically pleasing football.

The City side that pipped Liverpool to the title that season played good Football too.

 

[Skills]

I prefer winning. But the problem is we're doing neither, we're not gonna win the title/CL and we're serving up shit on a stick football.

 

[JPRouve]

Someone else said Spurs, so, out of 20 teams in the league (assuming you are including Newcastle?) that's 2 out of 20 who play attractive football and never win anything, alright 19, as someone will win the league. You also forget taht we won plenty last season.

On 606 on Saturday evening, West Brom fans were complaining about Pulis and wanting him to go. The presenters said that Pulis had never been relegated and, somehow, their logic followed that West Brom had 2 choices. Keep Pulis and stay up, or replace him and get relegated. The option of replacing Pulis with a manager playing attractive football and staying up didn't even register.

That's the funny part, it seems that some people associate attractive, attacking football with failure. The reality is that the team with the best goals difference is generally the best team too. To be a perennial winner you need to score loads of goals and concede rarely. Our downfall will be our inability to be good going forward which people often equate to unattractive football.

 

[prtk0811]

Winning matters the most , we play attractive footballing in maximum games.

In Big games you need better quality than we have in foundations.

 

[AshRK]

Damage limitation will be the name of the game in Jose's mind. I think he's terrified of being thrashed and humiliated by a rival, that's why he sets up for 0-0s (with the outside chance of nicking a goal and winning 1-0). He's a bit of a coward.

But he was never like that when he was managing Madrid, CHelsea or even Inter. Yes there were games he would go ultra defensive but not every game. He is the same Jose who used to set his team to counter attack and win matches at Camp Nou. He won 4-1 at Atheltico, playing an attacking football. He beat Arsenal 6-0, beat Liverpool at Anfield numerous times with Chlesea. Beat spurs 4-0 with a chelsea side having Eto'o leading the line. SO what has suddenly changed. My only answer for that would be the players. It was not a surprise he was after Perisic, as he could turn defense to attack quickly. None of our full backs or Wingers or even number 10's can do that. Martial and Rashford to an extent but that is it and Pogba for sure.

 

[gerdm07]

But he was never like that when he was managing Madrid, CHelsea or even Inter. Yes there were games he would go ultra defensive but not every game. He is the same Jose who used to set his team to counter attack and win matches at Camp Nou. He won 4-1 at Atheltico, playing an attacking football. He beat Arsenal 6-0, beat Liverpool at Anfield numerous times with Chlesea. Beat spurs 4-0 with a chelsea side having Eto'o leading the line. SO what has suddenly changed. My only answer for that would be the players. It was not a surprise he was after Perisic, as he could turn defense to attack quickly. None of our full backs or Wingers or even number 10's can do that. Martial and Rashford to an extent but that is it and Pogba for sure.

Not true. He feared Barca his first year plus at RM and his tactics showed. He played defensive and he instructed his defenders to foul players and make it an ugly game. He basically ruined a number of El Classicos to the neutrals.

 

[prtk0811]

Not true. He feared Barca his first year plus at RM and his tactics showed. He played defensive and he instructed his defenders to foul players and make it an ugly game. He basically ruined a number of El Classicos to the neutrals.

Fergie got destroyed in 2 finals against the same barcelona.

 

[gerdm07]

Fergie got destroyed in 2 finals against the same barcelona.

Yes, but he didn't go all negative (fouls) to try to win. And after the losses he praised Barca.

 

[prtk0811]

Yes, but he didn't go all negative (fouls) to try to win. And after the losses he praised Barca.

And he lost the finals twice. The biggest matches players play football for .

 

[M Bison]

Win at all costs for me, I hate losing and no matter how pretty our football is, it never ever compensates for losing.

To quote White Men Cant Jump (kind of):

Would rather look bad and win than look good and lose.

 

[Sassy Colin]

That's the funny part, it seems that some people associate attractive, attacking football with failure. The reality is that the team with the best goals difference is generally the best team too. To be a perennial winner you need to score loads of goals and concede rarely. Our downfall will be our inability to be good going forward which people often equate to unattractive football.

We were scoring bucket loads of goals at the start of the season and people were still complaining.

 

[goin4glory]

Case number 101022992 of redcaf member who thinks his opinion is so important and insightful that it can't go into any of the 10 front page threads where it belongs and makes a thread instead.

 

[JPRouve]

We were scoring bucket loads of goals at the start of the season and people were still complaining.

Because it didn't seem sustainable, we grinded a lot. Sorry for the analogy but it's a bit like scoring off turnovers in American football, it's nice to win the game, nice to have a defense scoring points but you can't rely on that. Going back to football, it was obvious that our attack wasn't good enough. Now it's not all doom and gloom because we also saw that our midfield was pretty good and we are lacking our Matic-Pogba pairing, the next step is to find the right combination in front of them.

 

[Rista]

Do people really believe managers play defensive football for shits and giggles? If we had a manager that played pretty football but never won anything, even more people would be calling for his head. Of course, there is no reason you can't have both. Aside from not actually having players capable of doing it.

 

[AshRK]

Not true. He feared Barca his first year plus at RM and his tactics showed. He played defensive and he instructed his defenders to foul players and make it an ugly game. He basically ruined a number of El Classicos to the neutrals.

He ruined nothing, in fact he made it intense. What happened when Barca players were rolling over for everything and getting opposite players sent off for nothing and Pep moaning and whining, wasnt then the game was getting ruined. Let us not pick and choose incidents to suit our agendas.

After his first defeat of 5-0. he changed his tactics and made RMA play a beautiful counter attacking football which worked pretty well for them that they even won the La Liga next season by scoring the record number of goals. Surely a coward manager would not be able to do that.

 

[TheOrgazoid]

If I had to choose between a style of football that looks 'attractive' (which for me means fast wingplay, counters and an urgency to shoot on sight) and a pragmatic style that seeks to win games but is not focused on shots or passes then I will choose the first one.

I can't demand my team to win - that would reduce competition to triviality and therefore remove the competition - but I can demand them to try.
Try to pass.
Try to dribble.
Try to shoot.

An attractive style if far easier to fall in love with than a pragmatic style.

We are fans - falling and staying in love is what this should be about.
Anyone that wants their team to 'win at all costs' and is happy to forgo attractiveness in doing so should try financial investment rather than football because they will get a lot more utility from that than they will supporting a team playing a sport where excitement is the currency.

If there is no attractiveness and therefore no excitement, who even cares?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Yes I would. Winning is the entertaining bit. It's a bit shit if you're losing every week.

but if your watching boring style of football every week even if your winning it becomes pretty dull and for me winning atrophy doesn't make up for that.

different folks different strokes, but for me watching entertaining football will always be top of my priorities list as i spend so long watching football its very depressing when your team plays in a very pragmatic or defensive way.

Just my opinion.

 

[gerdm07]

He ruined nothing, in fact he made it intense. What happened when Barca players were rolling over for everything and getting opposite players sent off for nothing and Pep moaning and whining, wasnt then the game was getting ruined. Let us not pick and choose incidents to suit our agendas.

After his first defeat of 5-0. he changed his tactics and made RMA play a beautiful counter attacking football which worked pretty well for them that they even won the La Liga next season by scoring the record number of goals. Surely a coward manager would not be able to do that.

Yeah, how dare a player roll on the ground after Pepe comes with a knee-high tackle.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

It would be great to win every week whilst playing total football like Barcelona, but such teams are few and far between. In a perfect world, I'd like a 12 inch cock, but that ain't happening either. I will settle for winning.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Preferring entertaining football over winning at all costs is a RAWK level, sorry. We should aim to get both, but if we have to choose then no brainer, winning at all costs.

Not if the cost is turning into West Brom.

 

[Raees]

If your team are incapable of mounting attacks cohesively, consistently and against good opposition.. what are you exactly going to be winning, I just don't get it.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

If your team are incapable of mounting attacks cohesively, consistently and against good opposition.. what are you exactly going to be winning, I just don't get it.

Exactly.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Playing attractive football is not a guarantee of victory. Look at Spurs and Liverpool. We won more last season than Spurs and Liverpool have won in the last ten years. The op is just making things up to suit his bias.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It was really on Barca in 2008 when we did that. We went away to sides like Roma, Milan and Bayern and attacked. The idea that we were very defensive under Ferguson during his last years as the manager is a complete myth on here. If anything defense was our biggest issue during those years.

Exactly.

 

[Redlyn]

For where we are from winning is more important now than beautiful football. We last finished 6th afterall. We haven't played CL footy in consecutive seasons for about 5 years now. I would take top 2 and progress deep into CL over any kind of entertaining end to end football. Next year we can look to build, consolidate and add flair. So in absolute terms being boring long term will be a bummer but man utd first need to get back to winning or at least challenging for major honours and that trumps any ideals of style.

 

[prtk0811]

Because it didn't seem sustainable, we grinded a lot. Sorry for the analogy but it's a bit like scoring off turnovers in American football, it's nice to win the game, nice to have a defense scoring points but you can't rely on that. Going back to football, it was obvious that our attack wasn't good enough. Now it's not all doom and gloom because we also saw that our midfield was pretty good and we are lacking our Matic-Pogba pairing, the next step is to find the right combination in front of them.

Epl has become very defensive ,

Because it didn't seem sustainable, we grinded a lot. Sorry for the analogy but it's a bit like scoring off turnovers in American football, it's nice to win the game, nice to have a defense scoring points but you can't rely on that. Going back to football, it was obvious that our attack wasn't good enough. Now it's not all doom and gloom because we also saw that our midfield was pretty good and we are lacking our Matic-Pogba pairing, the next step is to find the right combination in front of them.

Epl has become very defensive, every smaller club defend with 9 men until the game opens up with a goal and counter attacks when the wingers are too high and CBS vunrable.

And all the big teams control so much of the ball all the time , and also in matches against big teams their are no open games , one team controls so much of the ball and the other team could sit back or press very agressive yet to win it back giving other no space to create an attack.

If you score early only then the game opens up.

This was not the case until 2010.

 

[RooneyLegend]

He ruined nothing, in fact he made it intense. What happened when Barca players were rolling over for everything and getting opposite players sent off for nothing and Pep moaning and whining, wasnt then the game was getting ruined. Let us not pick and choose incidents to suit our agendas.

After his first defeat of 5-0. he changed his tactics and made RMA play a beautiful counter attacking football which worked pretty well for them that they even won the La Liga next season by scoring the record number of goals. Surely a coward manager would not be able to do that.

Madrid were already an impressive attacking unit before he took over, expecting him to build one from scratch is reaching.

 

[Mike09]

And whose been winning stuff in recent times? Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich. All that fantastic attacking football. As do PSG and City. And I can't remember them parking the bus and playing negative football which was supposed to the "precursor" to the great football that everyone pretends we're doing.

I never said we can't play attractive football. They played fantastic but still winning. The point is winning trophies not playing fantastic. Play whatever you like as long as it's winning, thus I choose winning over attractive football.

Chelsea parked the bus and won CL. Mourinho parked the bus and won trophies.

 

[prtk0811]

If your team are incapable of mounting attacks cohesively, consistently and against good opposition.. what are you exactly going to be winning, I just don't get it.

You have to win the midfeild battle in any game to win against good teams and against any team.

State of our midfeild and defense is not in that position with vital players missing or lack of balance like last year.

Transition is slow from front to back and side to side and the players are the one who are responsible for it because of their lack of atheltisim , energy and controlling abilities in possession.

Your midfeilders must be capable of winning the loose balls and first and second balls without making a tackle, unfortunately our midfeilders don't.

Small little details make big differences. Only matic is capable of it at the moment, every other big teams in epl has better athletes and abilities to win those and it's a fact.

One has got to be realistic of what we had before in midfeild and what do we have now and then place the realistic demans on the team.

 

[lysglimt]

People get this all wrong. Most of the time. Because i said they do.

First, what is attractive football?

-Fast passing
-Combinations
-Lots of chances
-Lots of goals
-Missed something?

Winning should be the number 1 priority. Always. If you disagree, go to find yourself a soccer mum, get adopted and play non-scoring 3rd grade soccer in the states.
The trick is, winning needs to remain the number one priority while style is not sacrificed.
"But mister, how is creating chances not a part of winning/" To create chances you need certain personnel to execute certain actions. Apparently, humans tend to be unable to do everything and you get Liverpool.

Mourinho sees the Tottenham game and thinks Result! We see the Chelsea game and think Backfire. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I doubt anyone would mind being stable at the back while actually having a plan for going forward. We are becoming a one trick pony. However, seeing people valuing attractiveness more than winning is just baffling.

It's like saying losing at chess is ok as long as your knight dances the place up.
It's like saying smelling a good meal is better than eating a mediocre one.
It's like saying it's better to have a broken Ferrari than a working Rover.
It's like saying it's better to have a beautiful spouse who's sleeping only with the neighbor than a decent loyal one.
It's like saying it's better to have a fancy stuffed marsupial than an ugly living one.

Winning should always be number 1 priority...yes but unless you make several efforts to win a game, you won't win the game.