Thats why we dont get near league titles anymore. People are not up in arms about a draw, its how we play and game management.
Why the heck #OLEOUT is trending again?
- Thread starter meamth
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The options from the bench are mostly woeful, not game changes or not integrated into the team yet. We've lost these games before and still won league titles, in a normal PL season you don't need 100 points to win the league.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have beat Southampton, because we should, but we had enough on the field to do the job without the need of having to hope subs could do something. We gave them a goal and were mostly toothless up front.
It's only the second game of the season but the players have ask themselves some serious questions.
I picked Sancho to start also put Varane in as well. I didn't go with Martial, we new Cavani wasnt going to play. This game needed a Cavani, type of CF to get a result, saying that before they scored, Utd should have been at least 1 up. Let's see where we are after 10 league games.
The ante is definitely higher than when we won the league last. Back then high 80s was usually enough, but in four of the last five seasons the winning tally was 93, 98, 99 and 100 points. Last year was impossible to judge accurately given the weirdness of covid, I’m not sure that’s a new normal.
This season we have to assume 90 to 95 points is the target to win, it could even be higher. So the days of starting the season with two draws and a defeat and pulling it round, like we did in 07-08, are probably gone. We may need to drop no more than 20 points all season, including in all our head to heads with the other big clubs. So dropping two yesterday was significant.
Forever battle of the kneejerkers. Every time we drop points it’s the end of the world. Every time we win any criticism ever is completely null and void.
They’re both two sides of the same coin
They’re both two sides of the same coin
Equally as bad as the fans that act like spoilt children at the mere sight of criticism towards Ole. If anyone is abusing him etc, yeah they're best ignored. But the fans that can't handle criticism towards him and resort to calling people "plastic cnuts", "lacking intelligence", "glory hunters" etc, are equally as toxic.
They were moaning fannies when Fergie was here. It just went into overdrive once he left.Blows my mind the antics of some folk.
Don't get me wrong poor result yesterday, but Jesus when did everyone turn into moany fannies
I think it's fair to give Ole a bit of shit for the game, but it's worth remembering that the 11 he put out there did have enough chances to win the game. Pogba, Greenwood and Martial all missed sitters (at this level) with their head. There was other opportunities too.
So yeh, I was annoyed when I saw Matic and Martial starting but in my opinion this game was lost by the players rather than the manager. Its a shame too, because it's a massive opportunity lost given Southampton are fecking dreadful.
So yeh, I was annoyed when I saw Matic and Martial starting but in my opinion this game was lost by the players rather than the manager. Its a shame too, because it's a massive opportunity lost given Southampton are fecking dreadful.
I don't disagree with you. Except I'm not convinced investment levels are high enough to put us on a par with City. We don't yet have that critical mass of quality, especially in defensive midfield.
A part of that is the quality of the coach. But that's a symptom, not a cause.
He kept Matic on for 86 minutes despite the fact the guy couldn't move.
Which was actually the single biggest reason we went to total shit in the last 25-30 minutes.
YES! If meritocracy is still a thing at Manchester United, then Fred and Matic should have been given the boot to the back of the bus at the very least a long time ago.
The problem is that City and Liverpool have raised the bar a lot higher in the last few years with those insane finishes to a season (from 98 to 100 points), whether we like it or not.
Yeah because he pissed it up the wall on a £35m player he isn't using and you could argue on Amad as well, however he's a young prospect so am prepared to give him a pass on that one but don't sign them and we could have afforded both DM & CM
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Yeah I am glad someone has highlighted the fact that consistency levels of the other teams has gone up since that time
Players are going to miss sitters but the biggest mistake is what Matic was doing. I have no issues with starting him. But letting him drop into the defense line all the time and letting Fred get over run is criminal.
This is where we lost the midfield. That's why we couldn't get Bruno and Pogba into the game in areas where we want them to have the ball most of the time.
True, but everything mirco blown up, even a draw now, undefeated over a year away, you think Ole was in Jose territory before He got the sack.
Never seems to be a middle ground just usual folk straight in crying like we in absolute dire straights............
Don't get me wrong I think he got the team selection wrong on Sunday, but holy moly, massive overreaction.
Good whack of our fans sound like rival fans at the moment, they don't sound too far off what some of my mates be messaging me after a result, where we drop points, it says it all
Wouldn't feel so annoyed at him if he had appointed experienced coaches, bought a DM and give Donny a proper go, however unfortunately these are issues that rear their ugly head whether we win, lose or drawTrue, but everything mirco blown up, even a draw now, undefeated over a year away, you think Ole was in Jose territory before He got the sack.
Never seems to be a middle ground just usual folk straight in crying like we in absolute dire straights............
Don't get me wrong I think he got the team selection wrong on Sunday, but holy moly, massive overreaction.
Good whack of our fans sound like rival fans at the moment, they don't sound too far off what some of my mates be messaging me after a result, where we drop points, it says it all
To be honest, I'm sick of hearing about Donny.
Fair enough don't think he been given a good crack at it, but at the same time he been non existent as well when he has played. Don't think he's the key to unlocking midfield, if he was he defo be starting more games. He's see him in the training ground every day.
I can't comment on the coaching part, no one here really knows anything about it. But we have looked very well coached at numerous times Ole been here imo, guess you tell me we looked bad at times too
And I agree on DM. I also think 100% he trying to buy one, he has mentioned it plenty this window alone about new signing, again I'm not sure if the money is there, or we need to shift players out, but Fred works hard but he is a liability. Can't be trusted.
They wouldn't need to find money for one IF Ole had thought I'm not sure how Donny fits in so I will take the more sensible approach and actually put that money towards the DM this team is badly missing, in regards to the coaching I find it very worrying how a quality passer like Carrick is seemingly not improving that side of things enoughTo be honest, I'm sick of hearing about Donny.
Fair enough don't think he been given a good crack at it, but at the same time he been non existent as well when he has played. Don't think he's the key to unlocking midfield, if he was he defo be starting more games. He's see him in the training ground every day.
I can't comment on the coaching part, no one here really knows anything about it. But we have looked very well coached at numerous times Ole been here imo, guess you tell me we looked bad at times too
And I agree on DM. I also think 100% he trying to buy one, he has mentioned it plenty this window alone about new signing, again I'm not sure if the money is there, or we need to shift players out, but Fred works hard but he is a liability. Can't be trusted.
What has Donny Done in the 19 chances he got last season? One goal at the start and that's it. He's been average every time he's been played. He will be played this year when Ole thinks it's the right time. Also VDB is not tackler. He's not Michael Carrick level of interceptor either. He's a good positional player. He'll be given his chance soon enough. VDB realised he was too skinny and bulked up, great! Now he better start shining after a full year in the premier league and getting used to the pace in matches and training.
In a friendly. Come off it ffs. I've seen Andreas Pereira look world class in pre-season.
You're doing a colossal amount of moaning yourself tbf.
I was talking about Donny. You can think what you want about his coaching. He's beaten all the top managers in the Premier league. Going from Counter-attacking to attacking is a tough one. Even for the best of coaches.
I see logic is not your strong suit. Sancho played 2 off the bench with a limited pre-season, barely any game time at the Euros. He's also playing in the Prem for the first time. Perfectly logical comparison with VDB who's been here a year yes? Overreaction Station Choo choo!!
How many away games unbeaten now? (answer: 27 straight PL away matches unbeaten, 17W, 10D, 0L). We finished 2nd last season and we are 2 games into a new season, still on the longest unbeaten away run in PL history. Please save your moaning for better occasions.
A subpar performance, yes, but let's see where we are in a couple of months before you start with this nonsense.
We must expect to drop some points along the way, especially away from home. A team like West Brom stole points against all the top teams last season, against us, Chelsea (x2, beat the mighty Tuchel 5-2 at the Bridge), City (1-1 at the Etihad) and Liverpool (1-1 at Anfield) last season.
This happens and will probably happen a couple of more times this season, but there is no need to blow it out of proportions. When it happens for the fifth time in a row, then you can start doing what you love the most: Being miserable!
But its not the result that people have a problem with, its the manner in which it happened. Its the strange team selection, our knack of conceding from one of the few chances a defensive opponent springs on us and our general inability to break down a defensive team, all of which are ongoing themes under Ole. We see it less and less and hopefully with a fully fit team with Sancho and Varane fully integrated it'll become even rarer. This needs to be the season we push on.
No. We were last season as the League don't lie.
But this season Chelsea, City, and possibly Liverpool will pass us by again.
We need to get that balance right in Midfield. A midfield "General" is needed here.
Most importantly Ole needs to improve on his substitute decisions.
3 semi final and 1 final loss in 2 years tells us that manager and coaches need to improve also.
Just hope all have learned in last couple of years.
Ole is good in his tactical setup decisions in big games. He is NOT good at personnel decisions, however. He has some irrational love for Fred (left him on against PSG last year) and hate for VdB which led him to forget that VdB bossed it against Southampton with Matic last year and that Fred is the least press-resistant CM in the PL.
He also thinks, like a forward, that if you put high-quality players in they will score at the same rate. He is compelled by Martial to break up a partnership with Greenwood as striker that is working.
In the end, you have to accept the good with the bad and Ole does have a lot of good. It doesn't stop me from wishing we had a higher-quality manager.
He also thinks, like a forward, that if you put high-quality players in they will score at the same rate. He is compelled by Martial to break up a partnership with Greenwood as striker that is working.
In the end, you have to accept the good with the bad and Ole does have a lot of good. It doesn't stop me from wishing we had a higher-quality manager.
It was a match we dominated and should have won. We should have scored more than once, and we conceded on a freak deflection from a 0,07 xG-chance. How can you blame the manager or the players for a freakishly unlucky deflection like that? 0,07 xG-chances are the exact chances you want to force your opponent to take.
We were less efficient in front of goal than we should have been, just like we were more lethal than normal in our match against Leeds.
It's football. We were the better team and would normally win with a performance like that (0,59 vs 2,26 xG). That kind of domination is usually enough to win comfortably. Last night West Ham beat Leicester 4-1 (2,29 vs 0,63 xG). City won 5-0 against Norwich and created just as much as we did against Southampton (2,44 xG). In the first match against Leeds we created a lot less and scored 5 (1,64 xG). We just didn't convert the chances this time. It happens. If we deliver 2+ xG vs 1- xG performances every week this season we'll challenge for the title.
Let's leave it at that. On to the next one.
Like I said, its not the result, it was the manner in which it happened.
He played Martial, who was only back from injury and pretty low on confidence (and if ever a player's effect on a game is defined by his confidence its Martial), as centre forward. This meant we had to move the extremely-effective-against-Leeds Greenwood out on to the right wing to accommodate him. he should have kept the in form greenwood playing as striker and either gone for James (reliable) or Sancho (risky but potentially game winning) on the right wing.
He played Matic in midfield and left him on the pitch for nearly the whole game even when it was clear that he was ineffective, couldn't really contribute to our attacks and Southampton were only really hitting us on the break. Either he or Fred should have been hooked at half time and replaced by someone more attack minded so we could continue to press. instead Fred was switched for a like for like McT and Matic made way for Lingard with minutes to spare.
So yes even that poor team might have beaten Southampton if luck had gone our way, the question is why did we need to rely on a bit more luck when we had better players at our disposal.
Last season this was our record against the bottom 12 teams in the league (including the 1-3 loss against CP in the first round with no preseason): 18 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses
City against the same: 20 wins, 2 draws, 2 losses.
Liverpool: 14 wins, 6 draws, 5 losses.
Chelsea: 15 wins, 6 draws, 3 losses.
So I don't get where you get this "struggle to break down teams that sit back" idea from. That dissapeared with the arrival of Bruno and creativity in our midfield. Did you see City against Spurs? We are among the absolute best in the business when it comes to breaking down teams that sit back, and we have been for a good while now.
You can post all the stats that you like, but we were extremely poor and it wasn't an acceptable performance. Our general play was so slow and lethargic, and we really struggled to get going.
It's not the end of the world and I still fancy us to have a good season, but it's best to blame the players and manager collectively and move on.
I fancy us to bounce back against Wolves, and 7 from 9 going into the international break is fine. I can totally understand peoples frustrations though, as Sunday's performance mirrored so many of our poor games under Ole. There's always an excuse about a deflection, missed chance, poor referee decision etc - but the fact of the matter is, these things happen. It still doesn't explain our general poor play, especially when a week beforehand we looked so quick and incisive against Leeds. This whole praising Ole for wins and pinning poor performances on the players, is very tiresome and agenda driven.
My point was that the performance wasn't as poor as many think. We lacked that killerinstinct and precision in the box that we had the week before. We actually created more and better chances than we did against Leeds, we just weren't as clinical this time. I'm not blaiming anyone, this is football and the best team doesn't always win. We were a lot better than Southampton on Sunday and we didn't win, but in the long run performances like that is good enough to decide most games in our favour (even though it was not us at our best)
It is also a different exorcise to play against a team that is trying to defend a result, than playing against a team that needs to score.....more than once.
I also mentioned it earlier, but we are currently on the longest unbeaten away run in PL history.
We have a big squad and a long season ahead of us, so I understand why Ole is trying to rotate and gel different setups already now.
we have too many hysterical gits in our fan base these days
Chelsea and Liverpool had average seasons and that was one of our best since 2013. Thats all well and good showing those figures but one thing that is also important to note is that when it comes to big games, those 3 teams are perfectly suited to dominate games.
We are not ever dominating a game.
Even the lesser sides, when you watch Liverpool, City, Chelsea this season, they look like they have complete control of the game, get done on the occassion counter.
We on the other hand give away chance after chance and cannot control games why?
Because our midfield is poor and cannot pass a football.
True, but it's everywhere now. It does feel like the general attitudes of football fans has significantly changed over the past 5 years, which seems to have coincided with the rise of fan channels who generally present black and white view points. A loss or a draw is always a disaster and almost always sparks a discussion about whether the manager should be sacked or not. It's all about instant success - I really think some of these fan channels have influenced the way that many fans look at the game now.
Fair enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree about the performance. Those stats make it sound far more promising than it was. I was fuming watching the game, as I felt we lacked any cohesion or penetration in the final third. For me, it was a bad performance. Conversely, it's not the end of the world and other top teams will drop plenty of points over the course of the season to lesser teams.
My overarching point was that most rational posters expressing reservations about Ole, are saying that these kinds of performances have been all too common during his tenure. I think that's a pretty valid criticism. Nevertheless, it's the second game of a long season so it's not the end of the world. Now we have to ensure we bounce back against Wolves and go into the international break in a good place.
So us having better results than Liverpool and Chelsea is because they had average seasons and us having our best since 2013? By chance or because our manager, coaching staff and players are doing something right?
I admit that Chelsea has looked convincing in the 2! first games, City looked clueless against Spurs dispite owning the ball and creating a lot of halfchances and the Norwich game was convincing, while Liverpool looked crap against Norwich and were good against Burnley. Norwich were the better team against Liverpool that first half hour. We don't stand out positive or negative compared to any of these teams so far, and we did dominate the game against a Southampton that sat back. Goals change games though, and the only difference is that we didn't win it.
I really don't get where you get this idea that we're not as good at dominating games against weaker opposition than Liverpool and Chelsea. We do play a little more direct than them, and that leads to marginally less possession and lower passing %, but it also means better scoring opportunities and more goals. I hate to see teams that doesn't take risks in transitions, and I love that we do that.
The manager and coaching doing well, reasonably well but Chelsea won the CL last season.
I am saying we are very poor are dominating games, watch Chelsea, City, Liverpool and even when they cannot break a team down, the opponents hardly have a sniff in the game.
This is why Chelsea and Liverpool have started with 2 clean sheets and we have started with 0.
I hardly see the other 3 teams give possession away in their half whereas we do it regularly. These things have been costing us for years and even this season I see the same trend.
This is where I think people get into trouble with their logic. I would argue that "these kinds of performances have been all too common during his tenure" is a pointless statement, and a pointless way of approaching the issue. Because it presupposes an evenness over that period which doesn't exist. it's not like the team he inherited in 2018/19, or the ones he had in 19/20, or the one he had last season, were of largely similar composition and quality to the one he's got now, and could be expected to work in more or less the same way. Other than the things that are irrespective of the quality of the squad, such as man management or the quality of training, there is really not much point in talking about things being this way or that "during his tenure", and to say we've had these kinds of performances all too commonly during his tenure misses the point.
The issue is have they become fewer in step with the team generally improving, and how common are they going to be going forward this season?
Well, I have no issues with people who express that sentiment.