so you are satisfied with what the guy that managed Molde is doing, but think United would be a step too far for the guys managing Leipzig and Monchengladbach?
Why the heck #OLEOUT is trending again?
- Thread starter meamth
- Start date
Absolutely, put the point stands, since 2013 those points totals would have managed one league in the eight seasons since & Nagelsman wasn’t even managing Leipzig then.
The manager Bayern had won the CL with was them from 2011.
I dont feel like I got to really admit anything.
Klopp is a better manager than Nagelsmann and there is nothing that can be said thats wrong about that.
We could say the same about now - Nagelsmann has only made RB Leipzig 2nd because Dortmund are so off form and weak. If Dortmund were playing like 2019 then they would be above RB Leipzig as shown by that league table too.
No, it's mostly been Mourninho-esque counterattacking stuff vs similar/superior opposition, whilst at the same time failing to break down the relegation fodder who give us the ball.
Our attacking play remains every bit as one-dimensional and reliant individual brilliance as it was in 2016-18. Our passing and ability to build from the back is as bad as it's ever been, too.
You want to watch a team that's a) easy on the eye, b) competing for titles. In an ideal world, you'd want both, but we've been making do with neither for a long time now.
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I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore ? I’ve already said to you I think Klopp is the best manager in the world.
And yes if Dortmund were better they would probably be above, they’re also a miles bigger club for a start.
This conversation started because you said you expected him to have won the league by now, and failed to recognise how much more difficult the league has become since Klopp was forced to leave through Bayern dominance.
Yes because we are unbalanced and we must not depend so much on a couple of players. We need more variations. We've always done this under SAF even when our options looked very good.
Initially I would have said some caretaker type manager who has at least managed at this level before, the trouble is he should have gone in the summer of 2019 when we didn't get top 4 and the options on the table were better like Ancelotti, Poch & Tuchel. Now we are in a situation where there's no one decent available anymore so have no choice but to carry on with him as manager.
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Sure, but he's also managing Leicester City. I mean every United fan is crying for a CB - well, Leicester have the same number of points and conceded fewer goals than us with Jonny fecking Evans in there. I don't want Rodgers, don't get me wrong, but context is important when evaluating him.
Well, yes. It sounds blasphemous but he was the perfect buffer for the Glazers. He kept winning titles even with very underwhelming transfer activity which obviously took a lot of pressure off the owners.
I wish Solskjaer was a similarly effective buffer, too.
There's a lot of truth to this. We don't play good football.
You see excuses that he's built a better team than Jose did and then at same time someone else will claim the team is barely top 4.
Someone said this is the first likeable team and that Ole has reset the culture. Our culture is fecking shocking, we're weak and lazy and still after all this time can't start games well. Rashford for the first time is pissing people off, Martial is now universally hated. This isn't a likeable team in any sense.
It doesn't make sense to sack him right now but in the summer it'll depend on what he achieves because output is all that's left. Top 4 and a trophy and he'll have earned another season, the following season it won't be enough though.
We're just in the same position as with LvG. Despite all evidence people ignore it because they've bought into some hypothetical potential. It may happen of course, it's not incredibly unlikely that Ole turns it around but there's no need to pretend all is well.
1 win in 5 in the league. 10 points from 7 matches, 3 of which were against the bottom 3. I can see why people are annoyed and I can see that people are fearful we've started another massive downward curve under Ole, especially as we play City and Chelsea in our next 3 games.
One week he says we're out of the title race after a decent performance where we ended up drawing 3-3 and the next he says we're in the title race after a piss poor performance against West Brom.
I know there's the argument that he's performing above expectations but if we get dragged into fighting for top 4 again, is that okay because he had us 1st for a couple of weeks midway through the season?
One week he says we're out of the title race after a decent performance where we ended up drawing 3-3 and the next he says we're in the title race after a piss poor performance against West Brom.
I know there's the argument that he's performing above expectations but if we get dragged into fighting for top 4 again, is that okay because he had us 1st for a couple of weeks midway through the season?
Because fickle fans
I think it depends if you base your expectations on the one (realistic) made in the start of the season, or one made up based on performances throughout the season.
False equivalence wont will you this argument, friend. Nor will whataboutism.
Also, "best attack" is a bit of a stretch. It helps that the team scored 15 goals in 2 games, and I don't think anyone would doubt that another attacker is necessary, especially with the way Martial and Rashford can be so inconsistent.
Bare a league win, I don't think he should stay any longer than after this season. We've a bunch of young talented players who've stagnated under him. The defense looks poorly coached, midfield looks lost and the attack is piss poor with an out of form Martial stinking up the place and forcing our best attacker in Rashford out of position and meanwhile Greenwood isn't getting the playing time he deserves because we need to have Cavani up front our we'll have nobody in the penalty box the entire game and Ole doesn't trust Greenwood to be the man for it.
Apart from getting relatively fitter compared to under Jose, our players just hasn't been progressing under Ole. It's a fecking waste of talent and money to waste another year under him with his usual feast/famine runs with players looking generally disinterested except in the big games when they're up for it.
Precisely and that is exactly why we should have shook hands in summer 2019 and thanked him for his work then appointed someone who had the personality and qualifications to manage the club full time
The Glazers don’t want to win, just make cash and like it or not Ole is a good fit for that. It’s not his fault, just like it’s not his fault he initially opposes takeover but now takes a paycheque from the Glazers, that’s life. Like SAF Ole has his own interests, difference was SAF was an incredible manager and Ole isn’t.
Your talking about relatively minor showings of discontent that are easily brushed off and majority of fans don’t pay any attention to. Top 4 club ticks over, no top 4 sixth the manager and sell a new dream.
Remember Green and Gold until club is sold? .What happened we did a bit better and people moved on. Same as what happens when we sack managers.
Only reason he's performing above expectations is because most people keep lowering the standards for him.
Just to answer this I am not, you also cannot discard the difference Tuchel has made in Chelsea's defence. So to remind you again two of the teams you mentioned above Ole's United defense let in 8 goals in two games. It's a tried and tested plan to sure up your defense to give you time to work on things further up the field. But anyway you put this Tuchel or not Utd's defense is shockingly poor.
How much has the team improved in his tenure?
2017/18 - 75 points needed for top four (for comparison in the decreased requirements).
2018/19 - 65 goals scored - 54 conceded - 66 points (6th) - 71 points needed for top four
2019/20 - 66 goals scored - 26 conceded - 66 points (3rd) - 66 points needed for top four
2020/21 (Extrapolated) - 79 goals scored - 49 conceded - 72 points (2nd) - 72 points needed for second (63 for top four)
Are we too reliant on opposition teams to collapse for us to move up the table rather than do the work ourselves?
2018/19 - Tottenham (71), Chelsea (72), and Arsenal (70) finished with more points than us. Leicester (52)
2019/20 - Tottenham (59), Chelsea (66), and Arsenal (56) drop a lot of points between them. Leicester does improve (64), but one opponent does not make up for three clubs dropping so much.
2020/21 (Extrapolated) - Liverpool (63) - enormous drop by 35 points, Chelsea (62), Leicester (72), Tottenham (59), Arsenal (53) - Again, Leicester improvement, but Chelsea and Arsenal fall away further. Tottenham stays the same. Liverpool collapse, making second place available.
Overall, I can't help but feel like he has really benefited from the collapse of the opposition at prime moments rather than definitive improvement. I'm not entirely sure he has improved us anywhere near as much as the position suggests. In the end, you could argue he has been lucky with his timing. And potentially, it is making his time here look better than it really is.
The team that seems to be really gaining traction is Leicester if the season pans out like this. In the same time frame of two seasons, we would improve by 6 points compared to their 20.
2017/18 - 75 points needed for top four (for comparison in the decreased requirements).
2018/19 - 65 goals scored - 54 conceded - 66 points (6th) - 71 points needed for top four
2019/20 - 66 goals scored - 26 conceded - 66 points (3rd) - 66 points needed for top four
2020/21 (Extrapolated) - 79 goals scored - 49 conceded - 72 points (2nd) - 72 points needed for second (63 for top four)
Are we too reliant on opposition teams to collapse for us to move up the table rather than do the work ourselves?
2018/19 - Tottenham (71), Chelsea (72), and Arsenal (70) finished with more points than us. Leicester (52)
2019/20 - Tottenham (59), Chelsea (66), and Arsenal (56) drop a lot of points between them. Leicester does improve (64), but one opponent does not make up for three clubs dropping so much.
2020/21 (Extrapolated) - Liverpool (63) - enormous drop by 35 points, Chelsea (62), Leicester (72), Tottenham (59), Arsenal (53) - Again, Leicester improvement, but Chelsea and Arsenal fall away further. Tottenham stays the same. Liverpool collapse, making second place available.
Overall, I can't help but feel like he has really benefited from the collapse of the opposition at prime moments rather than definitive improvement. I'm not entirely sure he has improved us anywhere near as much as the position suggests. In the end, you could argue he has been lucky with his timing. And potentially, it is making his time here look better than it really is.
The team that seems to be really gaining traction is Leicester if the season pans out like this. In the same time frame of two seasons, we would improve by 6 points compared to their 20.
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No but he also owes it to astute and smart signings like Salah, Mane, Robertson, Fabinho and Allison. Ole’s transfer record apart from Bruno, AWB and Cavani has been a mixed bag.
That's exactly my question though isn't it.
In my opinion, in any business, goals should be flexible and made ongoing, depending on a variety of factors.
Beginning of the season I wouldn't have expected to finish above Liverpool but I'd be massively disappointed if we did now.
The thing is, he probably would have succeeded if he showed the balls he had when he was the interim. Once he got the job, he was too concerned about keeping it and kept playing safe by no longer dropping the underperforming star players.
haha I think you got that spot on!
Dont speak sense. Liverpool have a well coached team but look a shadow of their former selves without their main players in the team. Literally 8 out of 11 is near top class to world class in that team. We are just starting to build that sort of depth and quality in the first team but people cant wait for that last switch - to sell a Lovren or Lindelof for a better CB next to Maguire. To ditch a Mignolet or a Karius for an Allison. To add some defensive ability in midfield to allow more further forward play through a player like Fabinho.To buy a Salah on the RW.
People just cant wait for that switch. They cant see what Ole is done because they only crave for instant trophies similar to my ex girlfriends being gold diggers.
Nah that's bollocks. Don't try to paint us as narrow minded. No United supporter wants to say negative things against Solskjaer, it's a shame he hasn't turned out to be the next great manager (in our eyes). However the club is the main consideration for all of us and, unfortunately, if we don't believe in Ole or aren't fully convinced, we are going to give our opinion.
I'm sure we all appreciate beating Southampton 9-0. But that shouldn’t be enough to change our opinion because it was an anomaly. You can't live off performances in a handful of games, otherwise LVG would still be here.
Conveniently leave out the 23 other players Klopp signed and choose his best? But Ole has a mixed bag?
Noone expected James to start and Maguire should be put in that bracket with the signings above, even ahead of Cavani imo.Too early to criticise Vdb, Telles and Amad has yet to play a role.
The improvement of Greenwood, Shaw and Scott shouldn't be forgotten either.
Yeah this is how I see it. It's frustrating when OleInners ask who we could get that would guarantee titles, as though winning is the only consideration. Good football comes first, titles follow. We do neither and have no consistency at all even in the half decent performances we muster now and then.
It's just moving of the goalposts. Look at their injuries, playing CMs at CB, then injuries to those CMs. Their misfiring attack. Of course the goals and expectations could move. This season has proved to be a massive opportunity for us to shine with our lack of injuries and reasonable squad (Pogba and VDB on the bench a lot, along with Telles, Greenwood etc..that's an embarrassment of riches compared to other teams), along with the form of Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal & Liverpool. In the end though we've become plodders who are going to have to scrap our way to the end and potentially have another season of...nothing.
Not to mention the absolute embarrassment of the CL stages. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I've never seen anything like it.
Have openly said in this thread he should have demonstrated some forward thinking when he was interim in regards to appointing some experienced coaches if he did get the job permanently but it clearly never even crossed his mind once
A lot of fans will (with reason) be sceptical about Ole until he wins the league or the CL. So every time we have a bad run, the criticism will start again.
If you appoint a guy with no pedigree, that's always going to happen.
If you appoint a guy with no pedigree, that's always going to happen.
I agree we should carry on with him as manager, let’s see how the season pans out
So hypothetically, say we finish next season with 86 points but in 3rd place, you'd say that we were unlucky to not win the title as mostly mid 80s points haul has been enough?
Comparing points across seasons is a poor exercise to conduct as every season is different, this one more so
Unitedly defence is shakey and lacking serious confidence when under pressure I agree with that. I just thought using Tuchel and his new manager bounce against a few hardly attacking teams is not quite fair when mentioning what a decent manager does with defence
We could easily be 4th or 5th at the end of the season. This is not a case of us improving and consolidating as clear seconds in the league, the fact is we are on our way to 73 points. Thats around top 4 points, in some seasons is not even enough for top 4.
We are second because Liverpool has dropped massively, because Lampard feck up big time with Chelsea and we all knew Mourinho was failing with Spurs.
Next season Chelsea will definitely improve under Tuchel and Liverpool while may not go back to that 100 points form will certainly get better. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we struggle for top 4 next season, that is not progress. Others falling behind doesn't mean we are progressing, we still have the same weaknesses we used to have, still missing defensive and offensive structure. We have stagnated.
Under Ole we are in a rollercoaster, its always under patches of good or bad form. No consistency and I'm not talking about results but performances. It's that way because we depend on individuals to be on their day, why have we looked dull in the last games? Because Bruno's level dropped so until he starts performing we will still see the same dull attack.
This team doesn't operate as structured machine its improvised every single match. Im certain we will improve from what we've seen the last month, but I'm also certain we will drop to the current form again. Thats what happens when you rely on purely individual brilliance.
We are second because Liverpool has dropped massively, because Lampard feck up big time with Chelsea and we all knew Mourinho was failing with Spurs.
Next season Chelsea will definitely improve under Tuchel and Liverpool while may not go back to that 100 points form will certainly get better. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we struggle for top 4 next season, that is not progress. Others falling behind doesn't mean we are progressing, we still have the same weaknesses we used to have, still missing defensive and offensive structure. We have stagnated.
Under Ole we are in a rollercoaster, its always under patches of good or bad form. No consistency and I'm not talking about results but performances. It's that way because we depend on individuals to be on their day, why have we looked dull in the last games? Because Bruno's level dropped so until he starts performing we will still see the same dull attack.
This team doesn't operate as structured machine its improvised every single match. Im certain we will improve from what we've seen the last month, but I'm also certain we will drop to the current form again. Thats what happens when you rely on purely individual brilliance.
You don't even need to look at points, just the quality of opponents is enough. No one is going to claim finishing above Liverpool as some grand achievement this season given their performances. Still they're not that far behind us and neither are Chelsea. It shows we've been poor ourselves and that we're very fortunate other teams were worse.
86 points show that you are a pretty strong team, and will be solidified in a top-four position (I don't think the threshold has ever been that high). Now, if it goes on too long that you can't compete, it could just be another Arsenal with the title winner mostly getting 90 or so points. But, overall, we will be safe for the Champions League, at least.
You still need to see an improvement to actually challenge in that instance, but it is far more promising.
Do you get that sense of security from 72 points? No, because most season's thresholds are higher than that. It may end up not even being enough this season, who knows. The confidence isn't there that we can guarantee top-four season on season.
Maguire has not and will never live up to that price tag. There were other better options available and Ole signed off on a record deal on a good but not world class CB. That falls on him along with prematurely naming him captain.
Ole wanted a bigger squad yet has failed to incorporate VDB into the first team instead opting to play two holding midfielders against shit opposition. He continues to reward Lindelof with starts even though Axel showed more promise early in the season and should have been given a run of games after his performance in Paris. It’s this type of inconsistency, which is maddening. While Shaw and McTominay have improved, Martial has significantly regressed, our set piece defending is 3rd worse in the league and we look clueless in attack against teams like West Brom and SU. Ole’s tenure to date can be summed up as one step forward and two steps back.
I agree here. We’ve had an exceptional season so far in terms of injuries, compared to the 10 seasons before, and most other teams around us. And yet we’re struggling to consolidate 2nd.
It’s a bit depressing to think that next year, if we don’t get the transfers right, Liverpool and city will be stronger again. This season was a big chance for us to really push for the title.
That being said, if we can get a run of wins together again, secure 2nd and win a cup, it would be a good season. Then get the 3 well needed players in the summer.
He hasn't got much to bring in either. I mean Axel has not been a revelation. Bailly is injured. The problem I have with him is not exactly our defense either.
It's that he is not playing to the strength of the players he have. It's impossible to play out of the back with a keeper like DeGea who is horrible in his kicking. Then you have such a slow CBs. How can you play a high line and press when the two CBs are so slow and then you have a keeper who doesn't come off his line? To add to this we have two midfielders who can't pass the ball more than 10 feet.
But we want to play a pressing game?
The biggest mistake was buying Maguire to play in this team. He is ideal for a Leicester or a Jose team.
Incidentally Leicester moves the ball a lot quicker than us and their movements off the ball are a lot quicker than us.