Wilfred Zaha to stop taking the knee

[SalfordRed18]

Some years ago this question would have been...“wait!...is this true? If yes then what can we do about it?”
In 2021 the question is about if it's appropriate to make a statement of fact. If you don't see a problem with this then I truly don't know anymore.
Before anyone gets pissed by this, I'm as black as we come from Ghana, West Africa and apparently black people can't be racist so...

"Supports Chelsea"

Checks out.

 

[VanKenny]

"Supports Chelsea"

Checks out.

Nice counter-argument

 

[Sandikan]

Hats off to Wilfred! Politics have no room in football and creates a more divided society, if anything.

It's not as black and white (no pun intended) as BML or most other extremist groups try to paint the picture as.

E.g. blacks themselves commit way more crimes against both blacks and whites, but this is rarely talked about. With BML-logic and dividing everyone into groups by skin color - it should obviously be mentioned too.

On a personal level I'm sick and tired of the constant dividing of groups, whether its skin color and race, religion or gender.

It's incredibly toxic and should not be promoted in the slightest as it will just weaken the society as a whole, with groups hating eachother for no apparent reason other than superficial.

We are all human at the end of the day and there is no need to label one another constantly.

Can't believe Gordon the Gopher turned out like this.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Nice counter-argument

I'm not even going to pretend to entertain someone that comes out with dross like

I'm as black as we come from Ghana, West Africa and apparently black people can't be racist so...

Or yourself for that matter.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This thread will be full of cnuts in 3... 2...

posts like this don’t help either...

I’ve said it before, it’s up to footballers themselves, and I’ll support them whether it’s as a collective or individually.

 

[UmbroDays]

Hats off to Wilfred! Politics have no room in football and creates a more divided society, if anything.

It's not as black and white (no pun intended) as BML or most other extremist groups try to paint the picture as.

E.g. blacks themselves commit way more crimes against both blacks and whites, but this is rarely talked about. With BML-logic and dividing everyone into groups by skin color - it should obviously be mentioned too.

On a personal level I'm sick and tired of the constant dividing of groups, whether its skin color and race, religion or gender.

It's incredibly toxic and should not be promoted in the slightest as it will just weaken the society as a whole, with groups hating eachother for no apparent reason other than superficial.

We are all human at the end of the day and there is no need to label one another constantly.

Winner of the "over your head" prize goes to....

 

[VanKenny]

I'm not even going to pretend to entertain someone that comes out with dross like

Or yourself for that matter.

You keep getting personal with people with different opinions than yourself without actually adressing their points. And thats one of the many problems with the current society, people blindly following a trend without challenging it and thinking for themselves.

I dont think taking a knee helps black people whatsoever, but im open to changing my mind. Are you open to changing your mind?

 

[Mount's Goatieson]

"Supports Chelsea"

Checks out.

Chelsea Football Club has probably done more to tackle racism and anti-Semitism than any other team in the PL.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Can't believe Gordon the Gopher turned out like this.

That’s what happens when Philip Scofield has his hand up your arse for so long

 

[SalfordRed18]

You keep getting personal with people with different opinions than yourself without actually adressing their points. And thats one of the many problems with the current society, people blindly following a trend without challenging it and thinking for themselves.

I dont think taking a knee helps black people whatsoever, but im open to changing my mind. Are you open to changing your mind?

Sorry, what exactly is my mindset?

Chelsea Football Club has probably done more to tackle racism and anti-Semitism than any other team in the PL.

And you know what? I have absolutely no trouble believing that.

 

[F-Red]

Coming out with this divisive horse shit...

E.g. blacks themselves commit way more crimes against both blacks and whites, but this is rarely talked about. With BML-logic and dividing everyone into groups by skin color - it should obviously be mentioned too.

Followed by this gem

On a personal level I'm sick and tired of the constant dividing of groups, whether its skin color and race, religion or gender.

and should not be promoted in the slightest

Agreed, stay in the newbies.

 

[The Firestarter]

I hope this post is due to stupidity and you're not actually trying to be funny.

Kind

 

[Deery]

feck I didn’t think I’d attract the EDL of newbies when I created this thread, it was simply to inform people of reasons Zaha isn’t taking the knee as I know there will be a thousand questions come the weekend.

 

[Sky1981]

In most culture kneeling is a sign of submission and total surrender

Peasant kneel before the king, criminals made to kneel etc.


Oot. Just saying.

 

[africanspur]

In most culture kneeling is a sign of submission and total surrender

Peasant kneel before the king, criminals made to kneel etc.


Oot. Just saying.

It doesn't really matter what it means in most cultures though because in the American context, it started as a (peaceful) protest about the treatment of black people within the USA, by doing the opposite to what most people in America do whilst singing the national anthem (standing).

I imagine most people don't think a proposal by a man involves him totally surrendering to his future wife (no jokes please!).

It is of course totally appropriate to question whether this gesture is as appropriate in other countries. I don't think I ever remember standing up for the national anthem in the UK and it is certainly not as pervasive as it is in general life as it is in the USA. It is appropriate to question whether this particular gesture should still carry on and what purpose it still serves. I don't even think Zaha is necessarily wrong in what he's saying, though he articulates it in a slightly weird way and seems to have missed the message of the gesture.

Sadly though, as usual in these threads, its been taken over by the dregs of society talking about how 'blacks' commit more crimes.

 

[Deery]

In most culture kneeling is a sign of submission and total surrender

Peasant kneel before the king, criminals made to kneel etc.


Oot. Just saying.

That’s crossed my mind to the subordinance of taking a knee might rub black men up the wrong way..

 

[JPRouve]

Kneeling as a social justice symbol comes from Colin Kaepernick who was kneeling during the anthem toward the flag instead of standing infron of the flag. It was a symbol of respect and provocation.

It doesn't really matter what it means in most cultures though because in the American context, it started as a (peaceful) protest about the treatment of black people within the USA, by doing the opposite to what most people in America do whilst singing the national anthem (standing).

I imagine most people don't think a proposal by a man involves him totally surrendering to his future wife (no jokes please!).

It is of course totally appropriate to question whether this gesture is as appropriate in other countries. I don't think I ever remember standing up for the national anthem in the UK and it is certainly not as pervasive as it is in general life as it is in the USA. It is appropriate to question whether this particular gesture should still carry on and what purpose it still serves. I don't even think Zaha is necessarily wrong in what he's saying, though he articulates it in a slightly weird way and seems to have missed the message of the gesture.

Sadly though, as usual in these threads, its been taken over by the dregs of society talking about how 'blacks' commit more crimes.

I'll say it for you, Zaha is wrong because he has missed the context and the message which if I'm being honest is disappointing. I'm not really into the kneeling myself because I believe that it's an american sport gesture, it fits with the protocol and I believe that the minute of silence or an other action would make sense without the kneeling part.

 

[africanspur]

Kneeling as a social justice symbol comes from Colin Kaepernick who was kneeling during the anthem toward the flag instead of standing infron of the flag. It was a symbol of respect and provocation.



I'll say it for you, Zaha is wrong because he has missed the context and the message which if I'm being honest is disappointing. I'm not really into the kneeling myself because I believe that it's an american sport gesture, it fits with the protocol and I believe that the minute of silence or an other action would make sense without the kneeling part.

I was being polite. If I'm being harsh, I'd say Zaha is acting like he does on the football pitch, like a bit of a spoilt brat. But I'm being polite.

Like I said, I think there are serious conversations to be had about whether its appropriate to continue. Its an American gesture, standing for anthems is not as pervasive in European culture and certainly not for sporting events. Its become a tickbox exercise etc etc.

But....it has nothing to do with being ashamed of being black or not standing tall as a black man ffs.

 

[africanspur]

Well if anything it's had the opposite effect. It isolates and then makes non blacks also feel some kind of way.

Since this BLM stuff racism has increased and more so in football. You only have to open up bbc sport and see someone new has been racially abused online by fans.

I agree with Zaha. It's just not working.

It hasn't increased though. What has increased are a few things:

• The increased willingness of people of colour to speak out about racism. You're much more likely to log someone calling you a chink or nigger or paki on social media or on your phone than you were even 5-10 years ago.
• The increased sensitivity to it in national media, meaning it is now more prominent news when it does happen.
• The decreasing acceptance of 'casual racism' or 'full blown racism'. Wasn't that long ago that Spurs fans were subjected to large numbers of West Ham or Chelsea fans hissing at us from the stands or that Spurs fans were singing racist songs to Adebayor about his dad and elephants. And not that much further back that racist abuse was raining down on players from entire stands.

What is the way that it makes non-black people feel by the way?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Kneeling as a social justice symbol comes from Colin Kaepernick who was kneeling during the anthem toward the flag instead of standing infron of the flag. It was a symbol of respect and provocation.



I'll say it for you, Zaha is wrong because he has missed the context and the message which if I'm being honest is disappointing. I'm not really into the kneeling myself because I believe that it's an american sport gesture, it fits with the protocol and I believe that the minute of silence or an other action would make sense without the kneeling part.

why is Zaha wrong?

he can have his own opinion about it, and surely that’s right for him. If you disagree with him, that’s fine, but that’s doesn’t de facto make him wrong.

 

[starman]

He should be free to do what he wants without any controversy, and others can take the knee if thats what they want, but the context is no longer simply a message of civil rights as publised by MLK when he first did it, its been weaponised, there is a lot of submission put on people forceabley to do it, go back to the summer of last year and you are a white supremacist, nazi, racist or colonial apologist (was being applied to non white people as well) if you didnt do it.

 

[dove]

Nobody should be bullied into taking the knee or doing something they don't want. The fact that this even makes the headlines sums today's world perfectly.

 

[The Original]

Hats off to Wilfred! Politics have no room in football and creates a more divided society, if anything.

It's not as black and white (no pun intended) as BML or most other extremist groups try to paint the picture as.

E.g. blacks themselves commit way more crimes against both blacks and whites, but this is rarely talked about. With BML-logic and dividing everyone into groups by skin color - it should obviously be mentioned too.

On a personal level I'm sick and tired of the constant dividing of groups, whether its skin color and race, religion or gender.

It's incredibly toxic and should not be promoted in the slightest as it will just weaken the society as a whole, with groups hating eachother for no apparent reason other than superficial.

We are all human at the end of the day and there is no need to label one another constantly.

Racism in the context of racially motivated violence isn't about who is killing who. It's about who is killing who just because they are a particular colour.

But racism goes beyond just that, and extends to systemic causes and effects, which ironically may explain why blacks live in higher levels of deprivation and thus turn more frequently to crime, and in the process kill each other more as you put it.

Start by asking yourself what centuries of slavery and overt segregation followed by socio-economically induced segregation and deprivation does to a particular group of people and what part racism plays in creating and maintaining this chain of events.

You can't simply ignore away the effects of racism by pretending that we're all living on equal terms just because we're all human.

 

[Deery]

Do you think that maybe Zaha see’s himself as a rich, elite athlete in the .01% of the population and thinks why should I take a knee, being proud of himself, his race and achievements and doesn’t feel the knew to be inferior in anyway,

 

[Cheimoon]

It doesn't really matter what it means in most cultures though because in the American context, it started as a (peaceful) protest about the treatment of black people within the USA, by doing the opposite to what most people in America do whilst singing the national anthem (standing).

I imagine most people don't think a proposal by a man involves him totally surrendering to his future wife (no jokes please!).

It is of course totally appropriate to question whether this gesture is as appropriate in other countries. I don't think I ever remember standing up for the national anthem in the UK and it is certainly not as pervasive as it is in general life as it is in the USA. It is appropriate to question whether this particular gesture should still carry on and what purpose it still serves. I don't even think Zaha is necessarily wrong in what he's saying, though he articulates it in a slightly weird way and seems to have missed the message of the gesture.

Sadly though, as usual in these threads, its been taken over by the dregs of society talking about how 'blacks' commit more crimes.

I guess this goes back to what @harms was saying in the rugby thread: in the US, kneeling is done during the anthem for which people stand up, so it has a clear context and message. In the UK (and many other countries), that context doesn't exist around sports games, and so taking a knee isn't as potent as a gesture. If you consider it completely separately from the US background, I can see how Zaha would arrive at the conclusion that kneeling doesn't send the right message. Maybe long-term, it would be good if UK football/society came up with its own gesture that has a more obvious meaning in its context. (Although you'd think that, by now, taking a knee is pretty well established as a gesture.)

 

[Deery]

Don’t know about England (I think they do to) but standing for the anthem with your hand on your heart is still a big thing in the UK and Ireland

 

[JPRouve]

why is Zaha wrong?

he can have his own opinion about it, and surely that’s right for him. If you disagree with him, that’s fine, but that’s doesn’t de facto make him wrong.

He is wrong because he takes the symbol out of context, he equates taking a knee as a sign of racial inferiority which in this context is completely wrong. And rest is just baffling, he doesn't want to be a target, he acts as if the symbol was the end all be all, as he and others can't do additional things. Again if we go back to origin of kneeling, it wasn't the origin of Kaepernick social involvements, it was a symbol that brought a lot of light to his involvements which is the point force people to see, talk and act.

Now, I don't really know much about Zaha and the settings of the interview but lets say that I have an extremely low opinion of him now, not because of the kneeling but the reasons that he gave.

 

[africanspur]

Nobody should be bullied into taking the knee or doing something they don't want. The fact that this even makes the headlines sums today's world perfectly.

Its made the news because he gave his comments at a summit organised by a newspaper.

As for the 'headlines' I've just looked at the FT, Times, Telegraph, Daily mail, Sun, Express, Guardian, BBC and Sky. Its on Sky, Daily Mail, Guardian and Telegraph front pages.

 

[JPRouve]

Don’t know about England (I think they do to) but standing for the anthem with your hand on your heart is still a big thing in the UK and Ireland

There is no anthem at club level which is the point here. You could find a context at international level but that's about it.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Exactly what a racist would say.

Your comment illustrates exactly what a brainless human being would say.

 

[Shane88]

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not ..help!

I refuse to spoon-feed sarcasm.

 

[AkaAkuma]

That’s crossed my mind to the subordinance of taking a knee might rub black men up the wrong way..

Also to less educated white men with varying degrees of prejudice.

 

[afrocentricity]

posts like this don’t help either...

I’ve said it before, it’s up to footballers themselves, and I’ll support them whether it’s as a collective or individually.

Nothing wrong with that post
What exactly doesn't it help?

 

[AkaAkuma]

I actually think Zaha is doing the right thing and aiding the cause. The topic now adjusts to black men showing pride and standing up with honour.

For an idea to take seed it needs to adjust and reinforce its message just to stay relevant and not be ignored.

 

[Deery]

Also to less educated white men with varying degrees of prejudice.

Don’t know about less educated didn’t Dominic Raab say he’d only kneel for the queen and his wife..

 

[JPRouve]

I actually think Zaha is doing the right thing and aiding the cause. The topic now adjusts to black men showing pride and standing up with honour.

For an idea to take seed it needs to adjust and reinforce its message just to stay relevant and not be ignored.

Which wasn't an issue unless you believe that hundreds of black NFL players had no proud or honour.

 

[Amarsdd]

I don't get what he's trying to say? Why does he feel "degrading" when taking the knee?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Nothing wrong with that post
What exactly doesn't it help?

doesn’t exactly help discussion does it. Here come the cnuts...

 

[Bojan11]

Your comment illustrates exactly what a brainless human being would say.

Leave Shane alone.

doesn’t exactly help discussion does it. Here come the cnuts...

I don't have much time for Afro due to him stealing awards, but he was right.

Hats off to Wilfred! Politics have no room in football and creates a more divided society, if anything.

It's not as black and white (no pun intended) as BML or most other extremist groups try to paint the picture as.

E.g. blacks themselves commit way more crimes against both blacks and whites, but this is rarely talked about. With BML-logic and dividing everyone into groups by skin color - it should obviously be mentioned too.

On a personal level I'm sick and tired of the constant dividing of groups, whether its skin color and race, religion or gender.

It's incredibly toxic and should not be promoted in the slightest as it will just weaken the society as a whole, with groups hating eachother for no apparent reason other than superficial.

We are all human at the end of the day and there is no need to label one another constantly.

Just look at this train wreck of a post.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Don’t know about England (I think they do to) but standing for the anthem with your hand on your heart is still a big thing in the UK and Ireland

Is it? I've literally never seen this ever.