Wilshere or Bale

[Brightonian]

I'd say Carrick's better than Arteta, though I'd be interested to know how gooners feel about Arteta for them.

I'd put Rooney ahead of Vidic too, because though Vidic is brilliant and talismanic, I think Rooney is a once-in-a-generation sort of talent. Of course, it's hard to be seen as that as a defender, as your role is more destructive and you don't get to express yourself as much. But it's not impossible. Maldini was a once-in-a-generation player.

I agree with you on both counts. But do you agree that the different positions in the latter comparison makes it a harder one to judge?

On the main point of the thread: If we added Wilshere as he is now to this United side, I think there'd be a decent argument for it being up there with Fergie's strongest. Some still seem to be committed to the 'this United side is a weak one' arguments of the last few seasons, but I think under the radar we've made some serious progress this season.

Carrick being in the best form of his life and Cleverley cementing a position in the first team has quietly shifted our midfield from being a cause for real concern, which I think it definitely has been at times over the last few seasons, to adequately equipped to allow our other admittedly stronger areas to shine as they should. RVP has made a strong forward department even stronger, and Vidic's return seems to have helped our 'on paper' strength at the back to translate into the sort of defensive performances which were lacking earlier in the season.

Add Wilshere, a midfielder who I think would now get into any first team in the world except Barcelona's or possibly Bayern's, turning the least impressive area of the team into one of its strengths, and you're looking at a side that could do some very special things.

 

[Plechazunga]

I agree with you on both counts. But do you agree that the different positions in the latter comparison makes it a harder one to judge?

Yes. Just don't tell the Rubberman.

On the main point of the thread: If we added Wilshere as he is now to this United side, I think there'd be a decent argument for it being up there with Fergie's strongest. Some still seem to be committed to the 'this United side is a weak one' arguments of the last few seasons, but I think under the radar we've made some serious progress this season.

Carrick being in the best form of his life and Cleverley cementing a position in the first team has quietly shifted our midfield from being a cause for real concern, which I think it definitely has been at times over the last few seasons, to adequately equipped to allow our other admittedly stronger areas to shine as they should. RVP has made a strong forward department even stronger, and Vidic's return seems to have helped our 'on paper' strength at the back to translate into the sort of defensive performances which were lacking earlier in the season.

Add Wilshere, a midfielder who I think would now get into any first team in the world except Barcelona's or possibly Bayern's, turning the least impressive area of the team into one of its strengths, and you're looking at a side that could do some very special things.

Yeah I think we'd be close to complete... though our wingers have become a cause for concern. But that's alright, we could just start the thread again without the Wilshere part.

It would still be very much a side whose best was still to come I think. This side has definitely kicked on but I still don't think we played much great football.

 

[peterstorey]

I'd say Carrick's better than Arteta, though I'd be interested to know how gooners feel about Arteta for them.

Arteta has been quite good for us in the deeper role (better than at Everton where he played in a more attacking role), though he's not top-class.

 

[Fergus' son]

Arteta has been quite good for us in the deeper role (better than at Everton where he played in a more attacking role), though he's not top-class.

Yeah, he's been good there. A big factor in a lot of your best play this year, there was a reason why SAF instructed Rooney to not give him any space when we played each other.

 

[RDCR07]

Wilshere is who I would take because we need a Wilshere-type player more than we need a Bale-type player. We are missing creativity and a little bite in central midfield and Wilshere is THE player who can help us with that. Also will be an ideal partner alongside to Carrick.

 

[Chrisjn]

Tbh. After looking at that rotation thread. It seems we change our midfield pretty much every game. As nice as it would be to have Wilshire in our side, he would be used alternately with Carrick and alongside him in the big games.

Whilst he is arguably going to be a better player than Bale, just imagine another constant in our side who garuntees you tonnes of goals. Bale, Rooney and Van Persie in the same team would be absolute madness. Goals would be flying in from everywhere.

Rooney would be putting in his shift up front as well as bringing world class play, Bale would be fizzing in tonnes of crosses for Van Persie, something he massivly excels at (and we all know Van Persie can finish his dinner) as well as banging in screamer from outside the box.Van Persie would be bringing his usual majestic link up play and sublime finishing.

Who the feck do u mark. The space would be everywhere. Not to mention the sight of Bale, Van Persie and Rooney standing over a free kick.

Ramos would be falling over himself for once.

Rooney, Bale and Van Persie is 2 goals a game minimum IMO. When the defence settles , that would give a chance against anyone. Plus Bale would be playing every game IMO.

What say ye?

 

[Brightonian]

Tbh. After looking at that rotation thread. It seems we change our midfield pretty much every game. As nice as it would be to have Wilshire in our side, he would be used alternately with Carrick and alongside him in the big games.

Given the relative strengths of our midfield and wings (some slightly dodgy form this season from the latter aside), Wilshere would be as likely a starter as Bale. I rate Cleverley as highly as anyone (and will rant about it at length!), but if we had Wilshere he and Carrick would be dead cert starters in our strongest side.

 

[Shark]

Wilshere without a doubt. He'd make this United team complete.

 

[Chrisjn]

Given the relative strengths of our midfield and wings (some slightly dodgy form this season from the latter aside), Wilshere would be as likely a starter as Bale. I rate Cleverley as highly as anyone (and will rant about it at length!), but if we had Wilshere he and Carrick would be dead cert starters in our strongest side.

Of course they would. But we rotate the bid field a LOT. And our midfield seems to be used more as a means to get the balls out to the wings and forwards than a force to dominate possession and go forward. As daft as it that sounds.

Carrick doesn't really gt forward much and Cleverley is used to keep everything ticking along. Have another winger/forward of worlclass ability would bring more punch IMO.

Just thinking hypothetically, still don't know for sure who I would choose.

 

[kouroux]

Last night's match confirms it even more for me that I'd choose Wilshere despite rating Bale very highly

 

[ninety]

Both are outstanding players in their respective position. But we clearly would benefit more from a outstanding midfielder than an outstanding winger.

The thing that really impresses me about Wilshere is that for a small, young player you don't see him getting bullied off the ball and pushed around. He really stands his ground. He has that ability to drive Arsenal forward that only really Anderson is capable of doing in our team (and even then only occasionally). I see him as the biggest talent to come out of England since Rooney, hands down. I guess the question is how much would it take for Arsenal to let him go? 50mil?? Would be worth every penny if he managed to avoid anymore major injuries, he along with Cleverley would become the fulcrum in our side. I'd say there is zero chance he'd come here though, he seems loyal to Wenger and Arsenal.

 

[ecantona7]

Regardless of what we need at United, Wilshere is just the better. He's the type of player that can take your team to the next level, without actually change your team setup too much to get the best of him.

With Bale, an exceptional player that he is, you have to find room for a luxury player in your team. The questions are, whether your team can afford luxury player, and if his quality is good enough to be given such position.

Bale is not a luxury player.

 

[Escobar]

On TV yesterday, they said that Wilshire's current value is around 30m Euros. Would be a steal and obviously not even close to what Arsenal would demand

 

[Swaters16]

On TV yesterday, they said that Wilshire's current value is around 30m Euros. Would be a steal and obviously not even close to what Arsenal would demand

The problem is that when Arsenal have sold players recently they've wanted to leave. When a player forces the move the value goes way down. In a few seasons we or anyone else may end up buying Wilshere for 20m but to buy him now would cost 50m easily some would assume.

 

[RDCR07]

The problem is that when Arsenal have sold players recently they've wanted to leave. When a player forces the move the value goes way down. In a few seasons we or anyone else may end up buying Wilshere for 20m but to buy him now would cost 50m easily some would assume.

You don't know that. What happens if they dont make the 4th spot? What happens if they dont sign a few more players and strengthen this summer? Are you sure he is not going to force Wenger's hand?

 

[MDFC Manager]

Player exchange deals are very rare to see but I wonder if arsenal would specifically ask for Nani to be included in the deal of they were to sell Wilshere to us

 

[Sultan]

If life worked like this, who would you chuck suitcases of cash at a shower of London-based losers for - Welsh monkeyman or squashed Timberlake?

Wilshere

Although Cleverley is not on the same level as Wilshere, he does play in a similar space to Wilshere. I think he will improve significantly with time and become an integral part of United's future midfield. United's weakness this season has surprisingly been our wing play. As good as Nani is he tends to slow down attacks and needs to grow some brain cells with his passing. I don't even know what's happened to Valencia this season. He is a shadow of the player he has been over the last few years.

Muppet in me wishes for Bale, Zaha, and Young as our wingers next season.

 

[I'm always right]

Player exchange deals are very rare to see but I wonder if arsenal would specifically ask for Nani to be included in the deal of they were to sell Wilshere to us

erm.... what

 

[NinjaFletch]

Although Cleverley is not on the same level as Wilshere, he does play in a similar space to Wilshere. I think he will improve significantly with time and become an integral part of United's future midfield. United's weakness this season has surprisingly been our wing play. As good as Nani is he tends to slow down attacks and needs to grow some brain cells with his passing. I don't even know what's happened to Valencia this season. He is a shadow of the player he has been over the last few years.

Muppet in me wishes for Bale, Zaha, and Young as our wingers next season.

I really can't see any logic in keeping Young over anyone. He'd be the first player off for me if you held a gun to my head and said 'sell a winger'.

 

[Isotope]

Bale is not a luxury player.

Yes he is this season. AVB employes him like Madrid with Ronaldo.

 

[Chrisjn]

Yes he is this season. AVB employes him like Madrid with Ronaldo.

He really isnt.

Luxury is defined as something you COULD do with out.

I think he is single handedly helping them achieve 4th spot and meet there ambitions. Without him, they wouldn't be 4th. Thus he is not a luxury player.

Just like Ronaldo isn't a luxury player.




And for the people saying United have 0 chance of signing WIlshere, did anyone see his face in that interview. He was constantly saying "we just weren't good enough, and that the players need to sort them selves out." Now, I'm pretty sure he knows he put in 100% so that strikes me as him saying that he believe his team need to pull there finger out, and that he believes they just aren't good enough. Or at least that's what the look on his face said.

After a few years of playing in a misfiring team, with no winning mentality/ethos and with a lack of quality, constantly missing out on Europe, there is no way he would want to stay there. I believe gifted players will play for there own team, if they feel they have at least the oppurtunity to carry them to glory, and make up for the teams ills. For example Like Gerrard at Liverpool in 08/09, for example. When a truly world class player realises that even with him firing 100% all season long is not enough to even make champions league spots, that's when the questions will arise.

Rooney played for Everton who Arsenal will soon be in a similar boat to, but that didn't stop him leaving his childhood team for the highest level.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Although Cleverley is not on the same level as Wilshere, he does play in a similar space to Wilshere. I think he will improve significantly with time and become an integral part of United's future midfield. United's weakness this season has surprisingly been our wing play. As good as Nani is he tends to slow down attacks and needs to grow some brain cells with his passing. I don't even know what's happened to Valencia this season. He is a shadow of the player he has been over the last few years.

Muppet in me wishes for Bale, Zaha, and Young as our wingers next season.

I've always liked Young...even I'm beginning to wonder if he is quite at our level. I'd sooner have Zaha, Bale and Nani.

 

[ben_foster]

lets face it...........both would walk into our side.

does anybody think we will be interested???? we should be.

would love to see us make a serious attempt for both. im sure chelsea / city will be

 

[Isotope]

He really isnt.

Luxury is defined as something you COULD do with out.

I think he is single handedly helping them achieve 4th spot and meet there ambitions. Without him, they wouldn't be 4th. Thus he is not a luxury player.

Just like Ronaldo isn't a luxury player.

No player on the pitch you could say 'you could do without'. But we often heard "he's such a luxury player".

By a luxury player I mean someone who doesn’t necessarily contribute with the harder graft like chasing, tackling etc i.e. what some people might call the uglier side of the game.

 

[Swaters16]

No player on the pitch you could say 'you could do without'. But we often heard "he's such a luxury player".

By a luxury player I mean someone who doesn’t necessarily contribute with the harder graft like chasing, tackling etc i.e. what some people might call the uglier side of the game.

That's how I define luxury. Someone who contributes in an attacking sense and nothing else. Someone like Berbatov or VDV

 

[antohan]

I think what you guys are getting at is the same as I think on this.

You can always get better or worse wingers, and your fullbacks can help work the width when you don't have the better ones.

With the centre of the park it's an entirely different matter. Class and character there provide you with a solid spine to build from, it's crucial.

Out of all the players out there, Wilshere is whithout a doubt the one that, along with our other young talents, can provide us with an awesome spine that would make us strong and competitive for the remainder of the decade.

I'll go as far as saying, if SAF were to retire in 1-2 seasons, having someone like Wilshere completing that core base would have us sorted as a consistenty challenging team, whether it is the likes of Mourinho or Moyes in charge.

That's how highly I rate him. Bale? A winger. I would be a lot more worried about who the next manager is in that scenario.

I know it would be very hard to get him, but if I had a 50M stash to spend right now I wouldn't spend it on Bale or Ronaldo but Wilshere, and that's not even bringing the constant "we need a midfielder" into it.

 

[GlastonSpur]

... By a luxury player I mean someone who doesn’t necessarily contribute with the harder graft like chasing, tackling etc i.e. what some people might call the uglier side of the game.

Bale does his fair share of chasing, defensive work and tracking back ... as you'd expect from someone who started out as a left back.

I don't see that he's a "luxury player".

 

[londonredmaniac]

lets face it...........both would walk into our side.

does anybody think we will be interested???? we should be.

would love to see us make a serious attempt for both. im sure chelsea / city will be

I'd rip my cock off if we signed those two

 

[Isotope]

Bale does his fair share of chasing, defensive work and tracking back ... as you'd expect from someone who started out as a left back.

I don't see that he's a "luxury player".

Maybe it's just my perception. Messi and Ronaldo do tracking back and pressuring a bit, but they're still called 'luxury players'.

 

[Chrisjn]

Messi and Ronaldo are luxury players?

 

[antohan]

I wouldn't mind a bunch of luxury players myself

 

[TheHorse'sMouth]

He really isnt.

Luxury is defined as something you COULD do with out.

I think he is single handedly helping them achieve 4th spot and meet there ambitions. Without him, they wouldn't be 4th. Thus he is not a luxury player.

Just like Ronaldo isn't a luxury player.




And for the people saying United have 0 chance of signing WIlshere, did anyone see his face in that interview. He was constantly saying "we just weren't good enough, and that the players need to sort them selves out." Now, I'm pretty sure he knows he put in 100% so that strikes me as him saying that he believe his team need to pull there finger out, and that he believes they just aren't good enough. Or at least that's what the look on his face said.

After a few years of playing in a misfiring team, with no winning mentality/ethos and with a lack of quality, constantly missing out on Europe, there is no way he would want to stay there. I believe gifted players will play for there own team, if they feel they have at least the oppurtunity to carry them to glory, and make up for the teams ills. For example Like Gerrard at Liverpool in 08/09, for example. When a truly world class player realises that even with him firing 100% all season long is not enough to even make champions league spots, that's when the questions will arise.

Rooney played for Everton who Arsenal will soon be in a similar boat to, but that didn't stop him leaving his childhood team for the highest level.

Wilshere grew up at a time where we were competing with you regularly for the league. Any Arsenal fan growing up in that era knows you just don't move to a club that you've been a regular competitor with for a period of time. The RVP situation was unique in that he's just about to hit his 30's, was in the last year of his contract, and you were the only club willing to pay out a transfer fee close to what Arsenal were asking...the club knows where the supporters stand in terms of selling players to a rival like Man Utd. They just won't risk going down that route again, the backlash would be truly something else.

 

[Top]

Wilshere grew up at a time where we were competing with you regularly for the league. Any Arsenal fan growing up in that era knows you just don't move to a club that you've been a regular competitor with for a period of time. The RVP situation was unique in that he's just about to hit his 30's, was in the last year of his contract, and you were the only club willing to pay out a transfer fee close to what Arsenal were asking...the club knows where the supporters stand in terms of selling players to a rival like Man Utd. They just won't risk going down that route again, the backlash would be truly something else.

Wrong, by all accounts City had an offer accepted as well but were turned down by RvP.

 

[Isotope]

Messi and Ronaldo are luxury players?

By my definition, yes.

 

[peterstorey]

Think Berbatov, he's the epitome of the luxury player.

 

[kouroux]

By my definition, yes.

Then something is truly wrong with your definition

 

[Isotope]

Then something is truly wrong with your definition

Truly wrong?
There seems to be two definition of so called 'Luxury player'. One, like I and Swaters agreed:

That's how I define luxury. Someone who contributes in an attacking sense and nothing else. Someone like Berbatov or VDV

And second, as you and Chrisjn deemed as:

Luxury is defined as something you COULD do with out.

 

[antohan]

You should have bolded the hindrance part really. Luxury players are associated with that term. Not necessarily ALWAYS a hindrance but liable to be one.

Berbatov is a clear example, while I cannot see how Messi could ever be construed as a hindrance in any shape or form. Cristiano being too much about himself at times, those shots when there is a better option on... possibly, but any concerns are allayed by his effectiveness.

Maybe it's best to think of a luxury player as: a player who could be brilliant but depending on how the game shapes up may well turn out to be a passenger. Messi and Cristiano will never be passengers, come what may.

 

[kouroux]

Truly wrong?
There seems to be two definition of so called 'Luxury player'. One, like I and Swaters agreed:

I still stand by what I said it.I think it's wrong to exclusively link defensive work and luxury players.I have searched the web and being a luxury player is mostly about being a talented player who doesn't produce his stuff consistently for him to be regularly playing.A player who is not irreplaceable despite his quality.

Ronaldo is a player who works defensively in certain games when he is asked to specially by Mourinho but otherwise he's given freedom.In general Ronaldo is one of players who work extremely hard and consistently for his team, no way he could be considered as a luxury

 

[Isotope]

I stand corrected then. Seems like that 'luxury player' term has a negative connotation. While I thought it's for a very special (gifted) player in the team, who is given free role with no defensive duty.