The annoying thing for me is that we actually pressed for a bit in the first half and managed to get joy out of it. But then we sinply stopped and reverted back to our passive selves.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
They will but there will be less sprints and since every players will have less runs and less sprints when you aggregate the stats it can be a lot less. Bear in mind that during LVG's last season United was one of the team that covered the larger distance in the league, iirc we were second, Chelsea were in the middle of the pack with 108km per game and last season United were at 107km. Everything points to a tactical choice, from the distance covered by Chelsea and United under Mourinho or the space occupied by each positions groups.
West Ham was particularly bad, so I understand why you focus on it but keep in mind that you are talking about a team that systemically covers less distances. It's not a simple lack of effort or some sort of strike.
Edit: By the way, it could be the reason why Mourinho had a pretty good injury record despite little turnover.
The thing with the Valencia game was that we had a high line, particularly in the first half, but our press was still half arsed. So it just resulted in Valencia hitting balls down the flanks and getting in behind, because the pressure on them was nonexistent. If you're gonna play that high line then you have to press as a unit, and we're just seemingly incapable of doing it.
I knew that I was stealing it off someone.Great minds...
The “lean squad” comment is showing its age, mind you. Ours is bloated to feck.
The point I was responding to was that this is a Jose Mourinho issue and he was not here in 2008.
Anyway not nit picking and I understand your point.
Clearly there is a theme here. Our players don't run as much as the opposition. Our players sprint less often than the opposition.
We are struggling....
I fully understand different tactics might appear to result in less actual running.
However, the Premier league is reputed to be the fastest.
If a team are covering 10% more distance in the same time on the same pitch (and I am not talking about headless chickens running) then even if you are playing a containing game, players still have a be closed down, runners covered AND counter attacks launched etc.
Any player will tell you that defending without the ball is the most difficult thing to do especially against top teams. They will run you into the ground.
As I say there is a theme here.
I agree with you and @JPRouve. Jose teams are generally more efficient in their approach. They don't generally go chase 5-6 goals in any of the games. Once they get to a comfortable lead, the teams just shut up shop and conserve their condition and energy for following games. They also contain and manage their games more than running alot and all over the pitch.
I don't think distance covered and number of sprints are the end all be all measures of what a team needs to do to be considered a hard working or good performing team. It just means the teams' approaches are different. However, if the differences are huge, then there might be signs of trouble. For instance, if we can take a look at those numbers for prior league winning Jose teams, I would guess their distance covered and number of sprints would be similar if averaged.
Pragmatic and efficient is what I would associate with a high flying Jose team.
Pogba did more sprints than any other player on the pitch today. So how come we sprinted less than every other team in the league (by a margin) last weekend?
On the face of it, that would appear to be a non sequitur.
Pogba was box to box after Bailey was subbed off for Mata.
I personally think that a combination of fast passing and timed sprints is the key to unlocking teams. We just dont wear teams down any more, they are full of energy come the final whistle. whilst injuries was the bane of our lives under SAF and LVG, I do think we need a balance. Conservation after a 2 goal lead maybe?
But this season, its over now anyway, so why not go all out and let todays game be a catalyst for "out of the blocks" football from the start?
Play like the last 20 mins of today from the get go? Take the foot off after 2 goals and learn to close games down like we used to be able to do.
Just to add to this.
Pogba made 14 sprints against Newcastle. So our total sprints against West Ham could have been achieved if just 4 players had made that many sprints and none of the rest of the team sprinted at all.
Whichever way you cut it, the lack of sprints in our previous league game compared to Pogba’s efforts against Newcastle is just fecking bizarre. All the more so considering both games involved conceding early and needing to chase the game. This is barn door objective evidence of how deeply fecking dysfunctional we are as a team.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ted-outrun-opponents-single-match-season.html
We've been outrun in every game this season and only 3 teams have less sprints.
We are also the fourth worst side at stopping opponents from progressing up the pitch allowing teams to advance 13.9 metres per move on average.
Even Fulham, Cardiff and Huddersfield are better.
defensive workrate is still as bad as ever and lack of runs upfront must be addressed if we are to become a serious team.
We've been outrun in every game this season and only 3 teams have less sprints.
We are also the fourth worst side at stopping opponents from progressing up the pitch allowing teams to advance 13.9 metres per move on average.
Even Fulham, Cardiff and Huddersfield are better.
defensive workrate is still as bad as ever and lack of runs upfront must be addressed if we are to become a serious team.
Maybe one of the reasons that we seem able to keep going to the 90th- 95th minute is precisely because we don't gallop about, we conserve energy for the final assault?
There again one of the reasons we perhaps go behind so often is because don't keep pace with the opposition in those parts of the game when they press and we seem to wait until we are losing to turn on the after burners?
There again one of the reasons we perhaps go behind so often is because don't keep pace with the opposition in those parts of the game when they press and we seem to wait until we are losing to turn on the after burners?
That's absolutely ridiculous, especially watching the mileage covered against every team and comparing it. Considering we had differences of almost 10km from different games and were always behind our opponents, it looks like our players are mostly running as much as they need to. Basically in our every game so far we let our opponent dictate the tempo and workrate in the game. Not outrunning the opponent in single game so far is embarassing considering how much our players earn.
I never care too much about the money and wages our players earn, but if they can't at least repay it by running(considering they aren't showing some other qualities on the pitch at the moment), what do they think they do in games then? How can they come after games and say they did their best, or they gave their all?
I get really mad at our players/team after stats like that. That kind of stats deserves some fines for our players after games.
The players just don't run enough. No one is saying we have to gegenpress like madmen Liverpool style for 90 minutes but there has to be more of a balance . To me it looks like we enter the games with no real plan and we react to the flow of the game not imposing any kind of style from the offset.
The team is not working together as a unit off the ball and on the ball it seems players lack an understanding. Apart from the left wing which has shown signs of improvement.
Here's the main reason why the defence has struggled so far. The poor results will return at some point if Jose does not solve the problem with the work-rate.
You obviously do care about the wages, but you're right about the workrate nonetheless. Something must be done!
It's actually a disgrace to be that low compared to everyone else. Some of those figures for home matches are infuriating - especially when you see how little we sprint as well. I don't care who's responsible (tactical vs individuals) it needs to fcuk off. This is not what Manchester United are supposed to be about.
I actually don't understand how we can be successful when it's clear we have two traits: (1) we don't move a lot and (2) we don't have anywhere near the required quality on the ball to justify being so laid back.
A rich-mans Stoke indeed. Shit-housing our way to the promised land.
It's tactical.
Mourinho sets out his formations more rigidly than other managers. The starting positions of the XI are more important than their runs.
I'm not saying it's right. But it is the way that Jose likes to setup. What we lack is an AM or winger who can consistently make up the gap and burst into the box (like Lampard or Deco or Robben). If we can get that, our solid defensive shape (and lack of running) will make a lot more sense.
But as things stand, we do look pedestrian because the flaws of the system are so easily highlighted.
Mourinho sets out his formations more rigidly than other managers. The starting positions of the XI are more important than their runs.
I'm not saying it's right. But it is the way that Jose likes to setup. What we lack is an AM or winger who can consistently make up the gap and burst into the box (like Lampard or Deco or Robben). If we can get that, our solid defensive shape (and lack of running) will make a lot more sense.
But as things stand, we do look pedestrian because the flaws of the system are so easily highlighted.
We dont have the athleticism and quality to sustain it, particularly on a 2x per week schedule.
Trying to do so would leaves us exhausted and overrun in the second half.
Is workrate a real word?
I refuse to believe we have a lazy team.
We've been consistently at the bottom for the past three seasons, despite so many personnel changes.
It's tactical.
It's up to Mourinho and I'd like him to explain to me why we wait till the opposition are yards away from our box before we close the space. What's the advantage?
Our lack of pressing, as a team is doing my head in and it's killing us imo.
We've been consistently at the bottom for the past three seasons, despite so many personnel changes.
It's tactical.
It's up to Mourinho and I'd like him to explain to me why we wait till the opposition are yards away from our box before we close the space. What's the advantage?
Our lack of pressing, as a team is doing my head in and it's killing us imo.
Can anyone direct me at the website I can check sprint stats for players individually? Thanks in advance!
It should be two words really but you're obviously too bone-idle to look it up.
This is absolutely not true. Pogba and mata(when played) do this time and time again. The winger part might be true. That might shed more light on why mourinho was so desperate for willian.
Also would like to add that Lukaku has played a huge part in why our distance covered might be so low. Anyone know any good sight I can check to further back this claim?
Interesting to note that Liverpool,city and arsenal who are aesthetically pleasing to watch are all at the top.
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I do find it odd that United somehow can't do this.
Pressing has become the new thing in the PL, everyone's doing it. Right now Crystal Palace is pressing quite well against Tottenham, Bournemouth pressed us into making so many mistakes in the first half. We are the only top team not doing it. We are happy to track back and defend our box instead of trying to win it high up the pitch.
Seem to remember Mourinho saying that Matic would allow us to win the ball higher up the pitch. This was at the start of the 2nd season. He doesn't seem too bothered that we're not doing it though.
We need to work as a team if we are press high up the pitch, one player is not going to change it IMO.
Cant be a problem with fitness. Pogba, Herrera, Fred, Martial, Rashford, these are fit athletic guys. I read we have covered the lowest distance in the whole epl this season. You do not necessarily win a league just be running the most, but it's clear the boys need to up their game. They need to show more desire and a greater willing to cover ground to press all over. Players can have bad games, players can have bad patches which can be forgiven, but a lack of effort cannot be forgiven
Settle down young'un, I was just axing a question.
Agree with that. Just wondering if Mourinho was being disingenuous or if his idea of winning the ball further up the pitch doesn't involve pressing. Forgot to quote you @redIndianDevil
Quite agree with you. As a post below says, you need to press as a team. This tactic has to become second nature and practiced routinely to ensure that it is done properly. If not it becomes a waste of effort.
No idea why United do not utilise this but unless it is 100% comitted to it is probably best not to bother.
Seems to be increasing at least, started with Newcastle so hopefully the trend continues as it’s certainly a real problem.
If those guys press high up, our backline would need to push up to not leave space between the lines and a simple long ball would leave our defenders, who are older and slower, exposed. An example of what would happen to us is what happened with Bayern against BVB on Saturday.
You need the entire team to push up and fall back as a unit, with minimal space between the lines. If you leave too much spaces, opposition would have time to receive the ball and pick passes into spaces.
You need to press with pace and stamina, and be quick enough to recover if your high press fails. If we can leave Lukaku, Sanchez, Matic, Young, Valencia and Smalling out of the lineup, then we can try to do it.
That stat of our distance covered linked is quite shocking.
Waiting to see if we get outrun today. I've always thought you make up differences in quality by working much harder than the opponent.
You've often seen it when United play against lesser teams. They manage to outrun us and on occation get a result.
At the very least you need to match your opponents but I'm not expecting that.