Would Pep/Tuchel win the title with the current United squad and Ole with the current City/Chelsea squad?

[KW2006]

Pep no. Tuchel maybe. Ancelotti probably.

 

[devilish]

This argument loses credibility when the line has been towed all summer that we need sales to fund any more incomings, only for the Glazers to sanction a mammoth deal for Ronaldo in a matter of hours.

For years we haven't shown the ambition in the transfer market to go and win a title. We are now one position away from having a squad that is very capable of challenging and the ownership are more concerned with a PR/vanity signing than one that addresses the weaknesses of the team.

The reality seems very simple to me. We've got an insanely huge squad which create a huge financial burden on the club. The decisions taken by the club (including Ole) didn't really alleviated that problem. Jones, VDB and Jesse are still here with the blessing of the manager, Mata, Matic and Grant has been given contract extensions and we added what? a 3rd, 4th choice GK? On top of that we've added 3 new players that Ole seem over the moon about. Do you really believe that the club could simply add more players with no limits whatsoever? Well guess what? Keeping Jonesy because :sob story:, Jesse because he's homegrown, Mata and Grant because they are nice people who would one day do well as coaches with Mckenneky and Carricky etc has consequences. There's a limit of how big our squad can grow.

Now let's have a look at CM. McT seems to be Ole's love child, he's the anti VDB who seem to be Ole's whipping boy. Ole seem to have developed a fetishness for Fred too. Pogba is still here and tbh he's been bailing us out recently, Bruno is untouchable, Mata is always smiling and Matic is still here as well and on a new contract as well. There's really little room for a CM unless Ole becomes ruthless. So as said, I don't think CM was a priority under Ole. If it was then he'd probably sacrificed Sancho or at least he would have pushed some players out to make space for the new guy.

 

[MichaelRed]

And yet every manager that come before Ole has kept Lingard, and Mata.

What an asbolutely braindead comment. That's like me saying SAF kept Scholes so he's clearly good enough for us now. Every manager kept younger versions of Mata and Lingard. There's no comparison.

 

[Rajma]

The reality seems very simple to me. We've got an insanely huge squad which create a huge financial burden on the club. The decisions taken by the club (including Ole) didn't really alleviated that problem. Jones, VDB and Jesse are still here with the blessing of the manager, Mata and Grant has been given contract extensions, we added what? a 3rd, 4th choice GK? On top of that we've added 3 new players that Ole seem over the moon about. Do you really believe that the club could simply add more players with no limits whatsoever? Well guess what? Keeping Jonesy because :sob story:, Jesse because he's homegrown, Mata and Grant because they are nice people who would one day do well as coaches with Mckenneky and Carricky etc has consequences. There's a limit of how big our squad can grow.

Now let's have a look at CM. McT seems to be Ole's love child, he's the anti VDB who seem to be Ole's whipping boy. Ole seem to have developed a fetishness for Fred too. Pogba is still here and tbh he's been bailing us out recently, Bruno is untouchable, Mata is always smiling and Matic is still here as well. There's really little room for a CM unless Ole becomes ruthless. So as said, I don't think CM was a priority under Ole. If it was then he'd probably sacrificed Sancho or at least he would have pushed some players out to make space for the new guy.

I sometimes struggle to understand how people who get paid big salaries to manage this football club can be so incompetent when it comes to squad optimization matters.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I think it's possible that a manager could have won the league in oles time with this squad, but I don't think it's possible with the same level of attacking intent or while blooding youngsters. Tuchels football at Chelsea has been so negative, I could see someone coming and doing that at United and having modest success, and if it really clicked and if city and Liverpool had a howler we would have a chance

 

[Cloud7]

Pep - Yes

Klopp - Yes

Tuchel - This one is a bit trickier, as he did manage to not win the league in one of his seasons with PSG. I could definitely see him winning the CL with this team, but not sure about the league

Ole would definitely not win the league with the current City or Chelsea squad. He would likely finish 2nd or third, a distance behind the first place team. That seems like his ceiling.

Would love to be proven wrong on that this season though.

 

[CM]

The reality seems very simple to me. We've got an insanely huge squad which create a huge financial burden on the club. The decisions taken by the club (including Ole) didn't really alleviated that problem. Jones, VDB and Jesse are still here with the blessing of the manager, Mata, Matic and Grant has been given contract extensions and we added what? a 3rd, 4th choice GK? On top of that we've added 3 new players that Ole seem over the moon about. Do you really believe that the club could simply add more players with no limits whatsoever? Well guess what? Keeping Jonesy because :sob story:, Jesse because he's homegrown, Mata and Grant because they are nice people who would one day do well as coaches with Mckenneky and Carricky etc has consequences. There's a limit of how big our squad can grow.

Now let's have a look at CM. McT seems to be Ole's love child, he's the anti VDB who seem to be Ole's whipping boy. Ole seem to have developed a fetishness for Fred too. Pogba is still here and tbh he's been bailing us out recently, Bruno is untouchable, Mata is always smiling and Matic is still here as well and on a new contract as well. There's really little room for a CM unless Ole becomes ruthless. So as said, I don't think CM was a priority under Ole. If it was then he'd probably sacrificed Sancho or at least he would have pushed some players out to make space for the new guy.

I'm going to ignore the stupidity about love children, whipping boys and fetishes, so I'll answer the question in bold.

The club didn't have a problem adding Cristiano Ronaldo on a whim having briefed that a midfielder couldn't be signed without outgoings. Our finances are not that desperate. Dan James has left for a good fee, Lingard likely would've left too if he didn't want to stay - as has been widely reported in the media. There's not a doubt in my mind Solskjaer wanted a midfielder, and you shouldn't have to forego another position of need to facilitate that signing.

The manager is clearly operating under constraints. Our recruitment has been good under Solskjaer and the contracts we've given out to 'preserve value' aren't a Solskjaer problem - those have been going on for years and are likely coming directly from the Glazers and Woodward.

 

[United in sin]

No manager in world football would have achieved better league positions with the players Ole has had at his disposal.

That's not to say I believe Ole is the best manager in the world, just that I fail to see how anybody else could have toppled this City squad with such obvious deficiencies in our squad.

Beating city is not everything. Mourinho got us to second place in the only season we finished north of 80 points since Fergie left. Was that 2017/18 squad much better than the squads Solskjaer has been building these last few seasons? Did Liecester have a better squad when they won the league?

 

[devilish]

I'm going to ignore the stupidity about love children, whipping boys and fetishes, so I'll answer the question in bold.

The club didn't have a problem adding Cristiano Ronaldo on a whim having briefed that a midfielder couldn't be signed without outgoings. Our finances are not that desperate. Dan James has left for a good fee, Lingard likely would've left too if he didn't want to stay - as has been widely reported in the media. There's not a doubt in my mind Solskjaer wanted a midfielder, and you shouldn't have to forego another position of need to facilitate that signing.

The manager is clearly operating under constraints. Our recruitment has been good under Solskjaer and the contracts we've given out to 'preserve value' aren't a Solskjaer problem - those have been going on for years and are likely coming directly from the Glazers and Woodward.

So you think we're preserving Mata's, Grant's and Matic's value by handling them new contract extensions? Are we preserving Jesse's value by not selling him few months before the end of his contract? Are we preserving VDB's value by keeping him here despite not playing him?

The club has a limit over the amount of players it can sign and it certainly have a limit of the amount of annual salary it can dish out. We chose to give the players above contract extensions, to retain Jesse and to sign 4 players including Heaton (I guess DDG, Henderson and Grant needed further cover) which means that CM was not top priority. IAlso note that Jon Murtoughy and Darren Fletchery are our DOF and technical directors while Ole still has a veto. We can attribute Ole and Carricky all success in the transfer market and then blame Woodward/Glazers when we don't get that one toy we missed.

We've got Matic, Fred, McT, VDB, Pogba, Bruno, Jesse and Mata who can play in CM. 8 players for 3 roles and that excluding the likes of Mejbri, Garner and Sancho who can play in midfield as well. Do you expect the club to add more CMs to that?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

People just don't understand:

Pep CAN"T play 'Pep ball' with Klopp's nor Solskjaer's players. The results will be inferior

Klopp CAN'T play 'Klopp ball' with Pep's nor Solsjkaer's players. The results will be inferior

Solskjaer CAN'T play his style with Klopp's nor Pep's players. The results will be inferior

 

[CM]

So you think we're preserving Mata's, Grant's and Matic's value by handling them new contract extensions? Are we preserving Jesse's value by not selling him few months before the end of his contract? Are we preserving VDB's value by keeping him here despite not playing him?

The club has a limit over the amount of players it can sign and it certainly have a limit of the amount of annual salary it can dish out. We chose to give the players above contract extensions, to retain Jesse and to sign 4 players including Heaton (I guess DDG, Henderson and Grant needed further cover) which means that CM was not top priority. IAlso note that Jon Murtoughy and Darren Fletchery are our DOF and technical directors while Ole still has a veto. We can attribute Ole and Carricky all success in the transfer market and then blame Woodward/Glazers when we don't get that one toy we missed.

We've got Matic, Fred, McT, VDB, Pogba, Bruno, Jesse and Mata who can play in CM. 8 players for 3 roles and that excluding the likes of Mejbri, Garner and Sancho who can play in midfield as well. Do you expect the club to add more CMs to that?

The Grant, Matic and Mata are insignificant contracts in the grand scheme. Do you really believe the signing of Tom Heaton has prevented us from signing a midfielder? Lets be serious now.

I can't even attempt to take your post seriously when you're proposing Lingard, Mata and Sancho as genuine midfield options. Why not play Lee Grant up front?

 

[devilish]

The Grant, Matic and Mata are insignificant contracts in the grand scheme. Do you really believe the signing of Tom Heaton has prevented us from signing a midfielder? Lets be serious now.

I can't even attempt to take your post seriously when you're proposing Lingard, Mata and Sancho as genuine midfield options. Why not play Lee Grant up front?

They are still players and players are paid huge salaries, salaries that could have easily gone somewhere else. Regarding your second sentence, Lingard and Sancho can easily play as no 10. On top of that we've got Matic, Fred, McT, VDB, Pogba, Bruno, Garner and Mejbri. 8 players for 3 roles (and Im excluding Periera). How many midfielders do we need?

Ronaldo is NOT a vanity project. He's a WC player whose been winning trophies left, right and center everywhere he went. Cristiano was the Serie A top scorer last year and he was the second top scorer the year before. United had gifted Ole with a WC CB, a WC RW, a WC Striker and possibly the best 3rd choice goalkeeper in the world. We might have added more if we only let the likes of Matic, Jesse, Grant and co go.

Anyway I am sure that any manager in the world would love to have had the transfer window Ole had. Till the time of writing Allegri had to replace Ronaldo with Kean, Barcelona replaced Messi with an ancient Aguero and Depay, Shitty had made 1 top signing and they also signed someone called Kinky or Kayky, Bayern signed 2 players ie Upamecano and Sabitzer, Inter replaced Lukaku with Correa and a 99 year old Dzeko etc. There will be many managers who would jump for the chance to manage us if Ole ends up failing as well.

But hey lets pretend that Ronaldo is a vanity signing and that we had set Ole to fail.

 

[Lentwood]

Beating city is not everything. Mourinho got us to second place in the only season we finished north of 80 points since Fergie left. Was that 2017/18 squad much better than the squads Solskjaer has been building these last few seasons? Did Liecester have a better squad when they won the league?

Beating City is everything since they finished top last season...if we want to win the league, we're going to have to finish above them!

Also, talking about points and what happened in other seasons is absolutely irrelevant.

 

[justsomebloke]

The United squad is built to Ole's style and the City squad is built to Pep's style and the Chelsea squad just happened to be pretty compatible with Tuchel's style. Neither Pep or Tuchel are exactly known as the sort of pragmatists who can come in, take whatever bunch of players they get, and then turn them into something that works in some way. They have very specific ideas about how they want their team to play, and to do so they need not just good players, but the right kind of players. So the question really doesn't make much sense.

 

[United in sin]

Beating City is everything since they finished top last season...if we want to win the league, we're going to have to finish above them!

Also, talking about points and what happened in other seasons is absolutely irrelevant.

Seems it's irrelevant because it doesn't suit your argument. Im talking about a mere few seasons ago, not the 90s. Mourinho achieved now than Solskjaer in that single season and the claim is no one else can take us higher with the teams Solskjaer has had.

Doing the double on city this season won't mean jack if we can't turn more than half our draws from last season into wins.

 

[Lentwood]

Seems it's irrelevant because it doesn't suit your argument. Im talking about a mere few seasons ago, not the 90s. Mourinho achieved now than Solskjaer in that single season and the claim is no one else can take us higher with the teams Solskjaer has had.

Doing the double on city this season won't mean jack if we can't turn more than half our draws from last season into wins.

It's irrelevant because you don't award titles on points, you award them on league positions.

We won the league with our treble-winning team in 98/99 with 79 points. Last season we picked up 74 points, does this mean we're just two wins away from 'better than our treble-winning side'?

Man City won the league with 86 points last season. Season beforehand, Liverpool won it with 99 points. Season before that, City again with 98 points. Were those teams all better than our treble-winners?

So you see it's all just meaningless garbage. It's impossible to compare the value of one PL win against another based solely on points totals. It doesn't take into account any of the external factors, such as comparative strength of the league.

 

[LARulz]

Nobody would definitely win the title win any of those sides as those teams all have flaws and face tough competition.

Obviously the vast majority of people would say Pep & Tuchel (and indeed Klopp) would be more likely to win the title with those teams than Solskjaer, as they're proven (to varying extents) in a way he isn't isn't. In truth there are few teams in the league whose fans would think bringing Solskjaer in would be an improvement.

We know this though. If you're backing Solskjaer to be a top level manager then (unless you're detached from reality) you know you're doing so against the tide of opinion among football fans. You might be right or you might be wrong but you can't reasonably think that on paper he matches up to them in a way anyone other than a Manchester United fan would think comparable. Instead you're hoping he's a better fit for this particular club than those managers would be in a way that has yet to fully materialise on the pitch.

This is spot on

 

[cyril C]

Why would be need to buy new fullbacks at United when he has Shaw and AWB (a younger Walker) at his disposal, instead of an atrophied Sagna and Clichy and Kolarov?

It bears saying that he won the league last season without playing a striker. Its not certain he would win the league without his signings but he'd do better (maybe use VDB for one??)



He barely outperformed Ole so far league wise. What makes you think he is automatically good for 10 extra points?



What big-head players do City have? And how is Chelsea not suited for Ole's preference for counter attacking?

The OP is a shitty one, because it's questions no one can answer definitely, but enough people try using spurious information.

The point that I wanted to make, regarding Pep, is that he needs to make a lot of change on existing squad, before they can meet his style of play. Tuchel, on the other hand, has the ability to work on existing squad.

Regarding 4x wingback, it was just to illustrate this fact, whether pep will be happy with our existing wingback is another question. But 1 thing for sure, he won't be happy with DDG. If you try to understand the OP, that whether Pep can be parachute into MU, with minimal changes, make a Champion of this squad, then my assessment is NO. But possible with Tuchel. It is not about what they have achieved, how many trophy each of them has won. It was about who can flips an existing squad around into a Champion. A bit like Big Sam in league salvation, and Moyes in flipping a Champion into a mid-level team.

There are other aspects of a good manager, such as eye for a suitable candidate (recruitment wise), coaching and training method, tactics on details etc.