Exactly this. What Ole has done is essentially condense two years' worth of transition into one. A fantastic achievement, IMO.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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As correctly pointed out by @onetwo3oclock4oclockrock - his win % is only bettered by Jose in the post Fergie era.
Results aren't as black and what as that either. Business men that are in football don't simply look at the results only, they will sensibly consider the starting point or status quo of the club when the manager commences his term and after a period of time judge them on the results and consider probability of success and failure. Other issues are considered as well like financials and various other metrics, but yeah... pray tell me again how its just results.
Ole
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/managers/mangers_pages/solskjaer_ole-gunnar.html
Jose
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/managers/mangers_pages/mourinho_jose.html
LVG
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/managers/mangers_pages/van_gaal_louis.html
Moyes
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/managers/mangers_pages/moyes_david.html
I do wonder your age, cause as has been pointed out when you are absolutely & categorically proven wrong you change the goal posts like a spoiled child in a bizarre necessity to be proven right which isn't befitting of discourse.
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Even if we don’t get top four or win a trophy, he has to stay. It’s a long term project and he’s done a fantastic job so far. At long as the trajectory is correct (and it is), then he should stay. The team is miles better than the team he took over. I really dislike this “sack if he doesn’t get top four” attitude, it ignores the bigger picture.
We had like 65% avg possession and scored a grand total of 49 goals in his last season. We were literally the most boring side to watch in the world.
The state of this thread though:
Imagine sticking with Ole through January and then sack him in the summer after going undefeated through the rest of the season, playing great attacking football, conceding less than 0,5 goals a match and destroying teams that sit back, because we didn’t get top 4. Because that‘s where we set the bar at the start of the season. Ignoring the current state of this young exciting squad and what it can do in the years to come. Not to mention strength and depth will be added as well.
All arrows are pointing upwards, and yet there are still some people hesitant to jump on the-back-him-and-see-where-this-goes-train.
Unbelievable in a fan-forum!
You seem to confusing me with someone else. I haven't once moved the goalposts nor changed my opinion. I've been steadfast in my criticism and analysis of the team, manager amd the season as a whole. I've not been one to change my vote based on one good result.
Not sure how age has anything to do with being able to objectively analyse. But considering you've had to resort to the "hurr durr, you must be a child" kind of sums up your answers.
It isnt one result though, we have had these results since January.
I notice though that your steadfastness extends to the point where you refuse to address the data and clear facts that are presented to contradict your stand. That’s when you move from being an objective debater to being just obstinately unreasonable.
I've acknowledged that throughout. Doesn't take away from the 6 months prior where we were piss poor.
Do I think he'll be manager next season? Yes
Do I think based on all available evidence that he is yet perfect man to take us forward? Still no but willing to reevaluate at the end of the season.
If the recent run has pulled his stats up to that respectable number I will apologise as I misspoke about him still being statiscally worse manager. However the results prior to project restart painted a much less exciting picture of what we can come to expect. I genuinely hope the first 6 months of this season were the anomaly and this is what can expect from now on, but I'm still not 100%convinced that is the case.
You've repeatedly moved goal posts, no matter what evidence is put forward you don't take it on board and accept or maturely even admit, I'm wrong.... like the results I attached as an example.
Instead you prefer to insult members by claiming lack of intelligence, lacking objectivity simply cause they don't agree with you and my favourite....
Finally if you're "not sure how age has anything to do with being able to objectively analyse" . Multiple members here have put forth the "tangible evidence" you cried was lacking and I am left to agree with @midnightmare in that you are being obstinate and lacking in objectivity yourself.
Bringing me full circle to the irony in your posts.
Given our post covid form no one can argue that Ole deserves to be sacked. I was very hopefully of Poch though and still see him as the best option for players like Greenwood, Rashford etc to develop given what he's proven in his time at Tottenham. Giving players debuts is one thing but getting them to be regulars in a top 4 team and even compete for the league as Poch did is something much much more.
There were matches under LvG that were good - they were just few and far between. He still probably gave us the best performance ever seen at Anfield to name oneOnly Van Gaal thought it was attacking
Y'know, if Ole were to pull of the FA Cup or the EL trophy, he'd have one more trophy than Poch... and if he got both...
But we need a proven manager who can win us trophiesY'know, if Ole were to pull of the FA Cup or the EL trophy, he'd have one more trophy than Poch... and if he got both...
Of course you can't. At best you can post statistical evidence that Ole has the worst point average of all post-Ferguson managers - but since all managers started with different completely different teams - you can't prove that one is worse than the other.
Good point. With Poch, we might actually have seen some development in players like Greenwood, Rashford, Martial, Fred, AWB, McT, Williams...Oh wait.
Ole has taken a lot of heat for his counter attacking football against the big clubs. We liked getting the 3 points, but didn't like how we did it. We wanted to win with style.
But here's the thing....how can you win with style when you have to put Lingard and Periera in the starting 11?
Look at Arsenal for example. Arteta came in and wanted to instill his philosophy on the squad. My guess is it would be similar to Pep. An attacking 4-3-3. So he tried that and found that with the players he has, no matter how good he is (or isn't), he isn't going to get the results he wants by playing that formation. So now he has switched to a back 5 and has started to see some improvement. But does anyone think that Arteta wants to play a back 5 or is that just him reacting to how poor his team is and this is the only way to get results?
So back to Ole, now that we have a healthy squad and have added Bruno, we are able to play the way that Ole wants. The big test will be when we play Chelsea in the FA Cup. I'm assuming we will keep with this line up for the rest of the season and rather than play Chelsea on the counter attack with a back 5, we will continue with this 4-2-3-1 and take the game to them...
But here's the thing....how can you win with style when you have to put Lingard and Periera in the starting 11?
Look at Arsenal for example. Arteta came in and wanted to instill his philosophy on the squad. My guess is it would be similar to Pep. An attacking 4-3-3. So he tried that and found that with the players he has, no matter how good he is (or isn't), he isn't going to get the results he wants by playing that formation. So now he has switched to a back 5 and has started to see some improvement. But does anyone think that Arteta wants to play a back 5 or is that just him reacting to how poor his team is and this is the only way to get results?
So back to Ole, now that we have a healthy squad and have added Bruno, we are able to play the way that Ole wants. The big test will be when we play Chelsea in the FA Cup. I'm assuming we will keep with this line up for the rest of the season and rather than play Chelsea on the counter attack with a back 5, we will continue with this 4-2-3-1 and take the game to them...
Dunno man. Lampard has Chelsea above us and we have the luxury of dropping 80million on a CB, 50million on a FB during the Summer then another 50million in Jan for a top class midfielder. These manager's would have the power in the transfer market and may have invested our money differently so its a bit of a stretch to claim no other manager would be in 5th. If we come 3rd it's an over achievement period!
Same. but it should be "post Bruno form"
Last season (under Mourinho particularly) phrases like ‘the club is rotten to the core,’ ‘the players don’t give a fcuk’ etc were common place! The football was dull as dishwater and when we did scrape wins we were all waiting for the next defeat! Most of the team was really unlikeable and it felt like we were further away from City and Liverpool than we’ve ever been!
Ole had the gargantuan task of changing the culture of our club- resetting it in the mould of by gone glory days! He took the bold decision to kick out the mercenaries, in the knowledge that we’d have to take a few steps backwards before we could go forwards again! He slowly introduced players that had solid personalities and young, hungry players that had points to prove. Slowly, with many bumps along the way, we’re looking like a team; our players seem to care about the badge again and there are multiple reasons for optimism. Above all, it’s fun watching us again!
Ole deserves enormous credit and I can’t wait to see how our amazingly talented young players develop under him over the next few years!
Ole had the gargantuan task of changing the culture of our club- resetting it in the mould of by gone glory days! He took the bold decision to kick out the mercenaries, in the knowledge that we’d have to take a few steps backwards before we could go forwards again! He slowly introduced players that had solid personalities and young, hungry players that had points to prove. Slowly, with many bumps along the way, we’re looking like a team; our players seem to care about the badge again and there are multiple reasons for optimism. Above all, it’s fun watching us again!
Ole deserves enormous credit and I can’t wait to see how our amazingly talented young players develop under him over the next few years!
So you don’t think our front three has taken giant steps under Ole? Martial and Rashford are having their most productive and best seasons so far in their careers and Greenwood is exploding into the scene. Do you really think they would have improved more with Poch? What exactly could he teach them that the Babyfaced Assassin could not?
Kane, Son, Alli and Eriksen would probably be struggling at clubs like Burnley if it wasn’t for Poch, right?
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Now we might see this at Spurs.
Ole in.
My reasons being the team HE has assembled would beat any team we had post Fergie.
Am also looking forward to games, and there an arrogance to us now, like we know we will beat any team.
My reasons being the team HE has assembled would beat any team we had post Fergie.
Am also looking forward to games, and there an arrogance to us now, like we know we will beat any team.
And we were missing Pogba weren't we? Also missed Martial for 10 games (not sure how many were league but I'd imagine a few were) and then Rashford as well.
It's probably fair to say Chelsea had the head start in terms of player & team quality as well, even if Ole was there prior to Frank.
Basically like others have said its really dependent on numerous factors for each manager & club.
I have stayed consistent with my choice unlike many others and nothing has changed. Let Ole finish the season and replace him with Pochettino.
The fans believe this upturn is due to Ole, but the main reason is the support of the glazers, Woodward and other key board members. They splurge large amount of money and broke records last summer with AWB and Maguire. They spent the most in January and got an essential signing in Bruno. Ole would be closer to relegation if he was not supported the way he was.
However, I would give credit to Ole for finding the right playersto fit his system, something other managers at United failed to do even though they have had better season than Ole so far. Regardless, if Ole doesn’t get an support, he is as good a manager as Eddie Howe. Is Eddie Howe a manager that can take a top club to the highest honor? No.
Pochettino has showed with limitations and lack of support, what he can accomplish. With the backing of our board, it will be guaranteed that Pochettino will have us winning the champions league and premier as he came close with the team he developed on a budget at Spurs who is now seriously struggling under Mourinho.
The fans believe this upturn is due to Ole, but the main reason is the support of the glazers, Woodward and other key board members. They splurge large amount of money and broke records last summer with AWB and Maguire. They spent the most in January and got an essential signing in Bruno. Ole would be closer to relegation if he was not supported the way he was.
However, I would give credit to Ole for finding the right playersto fit his system, something other managers at United failed to do even though they have had better season than Ole so far. Regardless, if Ole doesn’t get an support, he is as good a manager as Eddie Howe. Is Eddie Howe a manager that can take a top club to the highest honor? No.
Pochettino has showed with limitations and lack of support, what he can accomplish. With the backing of our board, it will be guaranteed that Pochettino will have us winning the champions league and premier as he came close with the team he developed on a budget at Spurs who is now seriously struggling under Mourinho.
Yeah, I was about to post the same thing... Given the massive individual improvements across almost the entire squad, the argument that Poch is a shoe-in to be a better developer of players comes across weak, at best.
Fair point in a way, but absolutely nobody saw Kane being as good as he became, same with Rose, Walker, DIer and Ali had a decent shout but even in his game he's not what I would call a spectacular talent. He still turned them into really good regulars in a top 4 side. Erikson was always a big talent tbf.
Greenwood, Martial and I think Rashford have more natural ability than any of the Tottenham players bar Erikson and I'd love to see what he could do with them after a year or two. See if he could turn McT into Dier who may not be great now, but when Poch was there Dier was a key player doing really really well, though he got shafted a bit when he was angling to move to us IMO. Martial in particular was being mentioned as a Ballon D'or winner when we signed him and I honestly thought he'd be doing better than he has for us though I know that can't be laid at the floor of Ole.
On the whole Ole has done well, but Poch did something I've never seen before. None of those youngsters were on anyone radar as elite players but he made them regulars for a team competing for the PL. I'd love to see what he could do with our youngsters.
Gotta take into account all the injuries we’ve had this season. Plus, the clubs atmosphere seems to have changed all around with him. In addition to that, the future looks bright.
he brings about him a positive attitude but he’s also ruthless in a way that if u aren’t good enough are willing to do what he wants/needs from you, you’re pretty much gone
I believe that upsets the status quo again of many of the players. Clearly many of the current United players enjoy playing for Ole. Bringing in another new manager means different players playing, some promoted and others demoted. Others sold and playing style changes.
We've spent consistently for all managers post Ferguson bar Moyes who dithered around in the transfer market all summer. LVG spent approx £250m and Jose just under £300m.
Only 2 clubs spent more money than United prior to Ole's arrival and that was City & Chelsea.
Exactly, Ole had the tactical intelligence to see where our weaknesses are and has addressed them, slowly but surely. The rest is simply crazy, I'm not even going to attempt to address it.
Football is not that binary and there are no absolute guarantees. Folks like you said Jose was "guaranteed" to be a success at United.
Just because Pochettino done well at Spurs doesn't mean that translates to United. He's a top coach and done well there but reality is, United are a different level to Spurs in terms of expectations.
By the same logic I could argue that Ole knows and understands what is expected at United so he is "guaranteed" to be a success.
I wish it were that simple but it really isn't.
Do you regularly follow PL talents outside of those in our academy and some freaks of nature like Bellingham?
Just for my own sake I rarely hear of anyone before it's reported we are scouting them, or if they feature in a first team at some level in Europe.
This is the most reasonable opinion on here and yet you're having to deal with so much flak.
The season started last year, we can't forget that and whilst it's great to see this uptick in form and the recent tables about how United would be top if the league started in May etc. We can't live in a world of 'ifs'. No one in their right mind would want Ole sacked now because a) current form is good and b) there's only a few games left but, for me, a lot rides on how we finish this season. We're racing with Chelsea, Wolves, Leicester for CL football and we should really be ahead of all of them in my opinion looking at the squads on paper (Chelsea arguably same level but same can't be said for the other two) so let's enjoy these good times, see how we finish the season, how we fare in the Europa and then we can debate all summer long if Ole is the right guy to win the trophies we all care about; the PL and the CL.
I changed my vote. Lets see if the turnaround is for good this time
Weird how he suddenly discovered how to "adjust his tactics" when better personell became available.
Not so much over the last few years but I was following a lot of the youth team players in England around then when they were playing for the England youth teams. Not much at all was expected of Kane, I remember watching him in Englands U21s a lot and he always looked shite to put it bluntly. Dier was good but not seen to be the player he became, mostly seen as a technically component centre back. Rose was perhaps the biggest surprise. Ali was seen as a good prospect but to reach the status he did was very unexpected. Walker was seen as promising but Poch still had to execute and make him what he became. The point is he did it with all those under the radar players which is an incredible achievement that seems to be underappreciated.
As a comparison, Martial has been in the premier league match day squad 27 times and Rashford 26, Pogba 11. Pulisic has been in 24 , Abraham 29, Kante 22,
Their attacking players haven't been playing much more than ours bar Willian.
I do not accept that Chelsea had better players. Even last season I did not rate them when they had Hazard. I am not surprised that we beat them so many times. I'm also not surprised they were trounced by Bayern 3-0 at home. Supposing Bayern beat them like 7-0 on aggregate? would that not demonstrate they aren't particularly good?
I don't like using injuries as an excuse because it was the managements decision (not just Ole I mean Woodward and comitee) to sell one CF, loan out another forward and not buy Bruno in the Summer and sign a loan striker in Ighalo in Jan. It seems very reactionary and a bit negligent and I remember thinking this in the Summer. It was clear we needed a midfielder to take the creative burden off Pogba for about 3 years. Plus as I pointed out in another response, Martial and Rashford have been in as many premier league match squads as the like of Pulisic and Abraham.
anyways I don't want to come off as a negative nelly because I am enjoying 2020 so far football wise and things look good for the future and overall we are on course to having a solid season. Would be great if we could nick a trophy.
I just feel it is a bit predictable that we find ourselves lamenting injuries and using it as a crutch for our results in the first half of the season when it was pretty much a possibility from the Summer.
You could also add that Ole developed Haaland at Molde.
You can check the spell against Spurs (3-0), Liverpool (1-2), Aston Villa (3-1) and Man City (4-2). We not only won by good margins, but also really dominated those games. Against City it was brilliant, we conceded first and it looked that it is gonna be just another game when City toys with us, but then demolished them. It was easily the best (local) spell in post-SAF era.
It was also very short and soon we came back to reality. While this one, while probably never a peak as high, it has lasted quite a bit longer, so hopefully is not just another anomaly.
I am not sure this means much to be fair. Moyes has a higher win rate than Busby, after all.
There were some mitigating circumstances regarding Busby, as you may know.
They really didn't. United has (even without Bruno) a better team than Chelsea.
Of course, the injuries to Pogba, Martial and Rashford did not help in that regard, but Chelsea had their fair share of injuries too.
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