It’s not being negative, it’s looking at it rationally to see if Ole really is the best man for the job & looking at the season and seeing if we really have done that well (& yes points total should be looked at- not just league position)
If all things are equal then yes but they rarely are. Some years 80 pts wins you the title, sometimes it's only good enough for third. There have been a lot of mitigating factors this year.
To me, you've always seemed to be a bit of a pessimist so forgive me for taking that with a pinch of salt.
No, but I expect Manchester United, with the resources available to them, to be able to find a better manager for the club than this.
Sure, I'm saying we have a manager that probably isn't good enough for where we want to be, just like Chelsea Arsenal and Spurs. Indeed it applies to us. I'm not excusing the other clubs for being garbage btw. They made mistakes too.
This and more.
And I’ve always taken you as a blind optimistic who can’t see the bigger picture but that’s fine
The mitigating factor is Ole's due overhaul of our average squad and underperforming players. Injuries are part and parcel of football, even if our best playes are sidelined. I have been happy with Ole for the most parts, mostly cause he is cleaning house and he's bringing back entertainment to Trafford which football should always be about. I also know there is alot of work to be done and the results of his work are not yet fully clear. As I said, I think he's on the right track.
Okay. So what do we do about that. Just ride things out.
Ha ha I'm literally looking at the bigger picture that you're ignoring with your narrow focus because you decided he was shit months ago.
It wasn't miraculous - nor was it instantaneous. Klopp brought massive changes to playing staff and fitness was built up. Then he came up against the issue where the team would start flagging and drop off before regaining steam. This season, he's been notably more "pragmatic" and the team is less intense than ever before. It's not "heavy metal football" any more. This, combined with 4 years of work in the same direction on and off the pitch has led to the level they have. It's "not rocket science" and it can't be done overnight. Even so, it needs a dose of luck. Freak injuries can still occur!
Yeah. DoF chatter stopped once our transfers seemed to succeed, but that will always be something people use. That said, look across at Arsenal and Barcelona to see how well the DoFs are doing. Nothing succeeds like success. Clubs of all types exist - and the same club can have different results under different managers. Ultimately, it's the manager that drives it all. Look at the dippers. The structure was ridiculed and the stuff of memes. Same structure is now held up as an example of how to work successfully. That's the difference a manager makes.
It's about the difference in quality between first team and the bench. Even uniformly just-below-excellent quality offers greater flexibility to a manager than exceptional starters combined with crap subs. The smaller the gap, the better the ability to rotate and get through injuries, suspensions, fixture congestion etc. We've just fixed our first team. Now it's about the depth. I expect it to take another year.
I'd agree with that but the regression's already happened. We aren't a title-challenging team and haven't been for 7 years.
Regarding the points total, it is just an indicator of how good we are relative to the rest of the league. A low points total means we aren't that much better than most of the other. Then we must contextualise it by examining whether this is because the league is very strong, or we're just not very good. If it's the former, a low points total isn't something to be too concerned about.
I partly agree. It was insufficient in the last days of SAF though, when we could have signed players like Hazard but decided they were too expensive. It was insufficient in that we mostly refused to pay transfer fees for players older than 27 because they lacked resale value. And crucially, it was insufficient in that City spent a lot more.
Well, for starters, the comparisons between Klopp and Ole need to stop. Klopp has spent a lot longer in charge of Liverpool than Ole has with United, so he has a distinct advantage in that regard. It's not a fair comparison.
In that case why sack Mourinho. He took us from 6th to second and an FA cup Final. So was he a better manager then?
But Jose was not sacked in June that year right. He was sacked when he left us in 6th with lowest morale. If we have a poor start to the next season and are 6th in December then maybe Ole will also be sacked.
I don’t think time is the only thing that is stopping this comparisons. I mean you said it in your previous post. So make your mind up. Is it because Klopp is a superior manager or is it because he’s had more time? Or is it both that means we can’t compare him and Ole.
But that's the problem, finding that "better manager" has proven to be a near-impossible task. Moyes, LVG, Jose, they all failed dramatically, and that was after being heavily backed in the transfer market. Ole, in my honest opinion, has made more progress in his 16 months in charge than any of his predecessors post-SAF combined.
So we should just base everything on a feel good factor. If I had no pressure to win a title and got paid handsomely for it too. I’d be really happy too if there was no pressure to do better.
Who said we are happy to wait for another 3-5 years. Show me one post where any fan has said we would be happy with Ole for next 3 years even if that mean fighting for top 4. This is the issue with you, for the past 1 week or so you have made up things which no one has said. No one is blidnly defending Ole, in fact all have raised their doubts but you on the other hand have just resorted to some bs facts to counter your point.
I, nor you, have no idea who's 'available and willing to join the club who could elevate us to league champions status'.
Let's say, for argument's sake, we beat Leicester on Sunday and finish third. Would you have accepted that before the season kicked off, both as an acceptable season for our a new manager and a sign of progress?
You're quite good at spin, aren't you. Or, you like to spin, at least.
Ok, if I ran Man Utd, Solskjaer wouldn't have been given a permanent contract.
Is it progress or is it familiarity? We essentially sacked Moyes, LVG and Jose (three wildly different coaches) and have reverted to what we know/used to work. There are positives & negatives with this season but I don't get the feeling we are that much closer to Liverpool than at the start of the season, despite having a team absolutely laden with talent. I have no issue with Ole's always positive approach and his trust in youth players but I do think we are tactically very basic & looking at our team and the money spent on it, have been under performing for a number of seasons. I think more than a new manager we need someone like Quieroz back as assistant manager because when I watch us at the moment I just see a load of phenomenal individual players huffing and puffing without much structure, we manage to win games these days based on simply having much better players then most PL teams and waiting for individual moments of magic. There was a big press effort recently to give the sense of this being a team and there's no doubt players are happier now but we need some proof of progress: we're still nowhere near major honours, we're still in a position where we might need to prioritise Europa, we effectively threw the FA cup and we've scored less/conceded more than Mou's last full season & are pretty much exactly the same GF/GA as LVG's first season but with less points.
Football is not that simple. If you have a 20 goal a season striker but he doesn’t fit your style of play you have a right to let him go.
I agree in most of the points with you, I think the main difference between you and me is while we both agree he has been a good "transitional" manager I think its time to move on looking for the right manager to take us to the next level while you think he may do it and are willing to give him one more season.
I’m moaning because once again we are happy to stay still. Last time we stayed still we ended up with Mourinho’s third season. It might not feel the same but we will be heading in the same direction if we are not planning for a new manager.
They are happy because deep down there is a hope that in Ole we can develop some type of mini SAF dynasty. I hear the we don’t know if Ole can take us to a title but he’s going about it in the right way. The simple answer we do know he can’t take us to a title but we should be ensuring we get the most out if him whilst we can as we look for the guy to progress us further. Who might I add still not be able to get us a title.
Why is his job done despite the evident progress in style of play and individual player's performances (and dare I say league standing before I'm bombarded with "points argument " despite comparing different seasons)
On the road to their league dominance Juventus changed managers 7 times from being promoted from Serie B. The list included fellow club legends and on average they all lasted around 2 years until Conte took over and won the title in his first season. The probably with our football club is we live in the past. We won’t hire a DoF and we think the only way to become great is to hire an anomaly like Sir Matt and SAF.
For those comparing Klopp and Ole.
Manager | Club | GF | GA | GD | Total Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Pep | City | 122 | 59 | 63 | 113 |
Jose | United | 97 | 45 | 52 | 112 |
Klopp | Liverpool | 115 | 75 | 40 | 103 |
Ole | United | 100 | 61 | 39 | 103 |
LVG | United | 86 | 54 | 32 | 103 |
Poch | Tottenham | 92 | 69 | 23 | 100 |
