Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Threesus]

I am torn, honestly.
One one hand,I think that he is the guy before the guy, if you get what I mean. For the squad to realize its full potential, we really need a good coach.
On the other hand, I really want this Ole experiment to work out. It would be a good story if the guy who scored arguably the most famous goal in our club's history, leads us out of the dark ages.

 

[Bobcat]

I expected us to finish above Leipzig. We have quite frankly a much much better squad.
I don’t think that’s even slightly debatable is it?

They lost their best forward to Chelsea and their biggest Summer signing to replace him was a 20m signing from Crystal Palace.

The previous season whilst we were spending into the hundreds of millions, they spent 76m. Harry fecking Maguire alone cost more than that. Their biggest signing again then was 20m.

Their best ever league finish is 3rd, in a weaker league than ours, and they’ve spent feck all money since then. So how does anyone dress that up to make Manchester United the underdogs?

So anyone not expecting us to go through is down to the management of both sides and what Nagelsmann has managed to coach into his side. Make no mistake, he’s done an absolutely incredible job & spent a shit load less money in a similar time frame to Ole in order to do it.

Damn right we should be going through, unless the opposition manager can get a much less talented group of players to beat United. You making us “underdogs” in the group is pretty damning of the management in direct comparison with Leipzig, you realise that right?

While i agree that we should not see ourselves as clear underdogs in comparison to Leipzig, they are still a very good side and i think we both know that there is not a direct correlation between spending and how good a team is. First of all, we tend to always pay more than a players worth when we buy them, second when we sell players its often for pitiful sums and third our recruitment of young talent has been pretty bad for years now.

Not talking about the academy, which imo does a very good job, but rather unearthing hidden diamonds that go into the first team and turn into superstars. For example we had a golden opportunity to sign Haaland in 2016 when Ole invited United scouts to Molde. IIRC Haaland scored 4 goals in 20 minutes as a 16 year old, but for some feking reason we decided against it despite the asking price being absolute peanuts

 

[georgipep]

Failing to get out of the group after the start we made would go some way to voiding that statement, surely?

Failing to acknowledge that we performed very well after beating last season's finalist in their stadium while outperforming them in both games and blasting last season's semi-finalists 5:0, isn't that the weird part?

 

[Greck]

How about we wait till we've actually been knocked out before setting up blame or excuses either way. There's still a really good chance we go through

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

While i agree that we should not see ourselves as clear underdogs in comparison to Leipzig, they are still a very good side and i think we both know that there is not a direct correlation between spending and how good a team is. First of all, we tend to always pay more than a players worth when we buy them, second when we sell players its often for pitiful sums and third our recruitment of young talent has been pretty bad for years now.

oh come on, how many of that Leipzig starting 11 would we have in our side? The CB and?.... no-one.
You can’t have it both ways here, Nagelsmann has spent €109.5m, Ole has spent €310m. So either Ole is wasting insane amounts of money or we’re simply a much better squad (the truth is clearly the latter).

Individually they aren’t close to our level, collectively they are superb. Painting United as some plucky underdogs like Tom did is a clear admission that Nagelsmann is miles better coach and has done a much better job than Ole in a shorter time frame.

Don’t dismiss the incredible coaching job Nagelsmann has done there.

 

[Bobcat]

oh come on, how many of that Leipzig starting 11 would we have in our side? The CB and?.... no-one.

Individually they aren’t close to our level, collectively they are superb.

Don’t dismiss the incredible coaching job Nagelsmann has done there.

Holstenberg, Upamecano, Orban and Konate are all decent players and no doubt they are a team greater than the sum of their parts.

That wasnt my point though. The point was that netspend is not nesscarily a benchmark for quality.

If all our signings was value for money like Bruno i think we would have won the quadrouple

 

[AneRu]

I am torn, honestly.
One one hand,I think that he is the guy before the guy, if you get what I mean. For the squad to realize its full potential, we really need a good coach.
On the other hand, I really want this Ole experiment to work out. It would be a good story if the guy who scored arguably the most famous goal in our club's history, leads us out of the dark ages.

I think he has led us out of the dark ages but it's still ok to recognize that we are in a better place right now because of him but at the same time we can't really take the next step with him.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Holstenberg, Upamecano, Orban and Konate are all decent players and no doubt they are a team greater than the sum of their parts.

That wasnt my point though. The point was that netspend is not nesscarily a benchmark for quality.

If all our signings was value for money like Bruno i think we would have won the quadrouple

You can’t have it both ways here though Bob, Nagelsmann has spent €109.5m, Ole has spent €310m (let’s not get into NET as it gets worse). So either Ole is wasting insane amounts of money or we’re simply a much better squad (the truth is clearly the latter).

Individually they aren’t close to our level, collectively they are superb. Painting United as some plucky underdogs like Tom did is a clear admission that he thinks Nagelsmann is miles better coach and has done a much better job than Ole in a shorter time frame.

I still fully expect us to get a result there and progress, just as I did when the group was announced.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You named 4 defenders there Bob I realised. Yet Ole has spent what? €140-150m on his defence?
So do those players all get in our side? In that case Ole has done some shite spending. (I personally disagree as I prefer our players, although Upamecano I’d love to see develop here alongside Maguire).

Anyway, I think we both actually agree that Tom was talking out of his backside painting us as underdogs.

 

[Footy van de Geek]

You say that we have one of the best squads in the league and that ole should leave asap.

So do you think Ole should take credit for the squad? yes or no?

Depends on which players you rate or don't?

Our most talented attacking players:

• Greenwood
• Rashford
• Martial
• Pogba
• Fernandes
• Mata (yes Mata, he can do things that not many others in the squad can)

1 out of 6 players were signed by Ole. Two were developed in-house over several years at Carrington.

It's still too early to judge Telles and van de Beek. Same goes for Pellistri and Amad Diallo (long term).

I have questions marks over Maguire, AWB and James. Ighalo is a meh year loan.

Cavani should work out as a good free transfer.

So like Ole said when he took over, it's a talented group of players to work with. He inherited some real talent.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

You can’t have it both ways here though Bob, Nagelsmann has spent €109.5m, Ole has spent €310m (let’s not get into NET as it gets worse). So either Ole is wasting insane amounts of money or we’re simply a much better squad (the truth is clearly the latter).

Individually they aren’t close to our level, collectively they are superb. Painting United as some plucky underdogs like Tom did is a clear admission that he thinks Nagelsmann is miles better coach and has done a much better job than Ole in a shorter time frame.

I still fully expect us to get a result there and progress, just as I did when the group was announced.

Why are you assuming that Ole is negotiating player prices? What is payed for players isn't really on the manager. Not for Ole, not for Naggelsman, there are other people involved in negotiating.

Your argument reduces the club to a coach and players, when in reality teams like RB are better run from the very top. They were punching above their weight before Naggelsman, and will probably continue to do so after he's gone. They've sell their best players for a profit and will continue to replace them with good players at a budget. It's apples and oranges. We've been shit for a decade, under multiple managers, and this PE teacher is outperforming our previous managers.

I think very highly of Naggelsman, but it's not as simple as they are achieving so well because he's better than our coach. They are a better run club overall.

Edit: Just to clarify my point, Naggelsman doesn't negotiate the signings (I'm not sure he even gets a say on targets), and Ole doesn't negotiate player prices, so this "spent x on players" argument is meaningless.

 

[Tom Cato]

No, not objective. RBL and PSG are not what we thought they were. Losing it on the last matchday would be a real bottlejob and would continue to show Ole's inability to prepare the team for something big. Last year we bottled it in 2 semis, going out at this stage would constitute a major collapse in CL. Taking into account the quality of our players, being knocked by Red Bull would show a huge difference between the 2 managers. Our squad should be able to get past this German team. There is no doubt about it.

I see that reason and perspective has left the building, and so will I this discussion.

 

[Bobcat]

You can’t have it both ways here though Bob, Nagelsmann has spent €109.5m, Ole has spent €310m (let’s not get into NET as it gets worse). So either Ole is wasting insane amounts of money or we’re simply a much better squad (the truth is clearly the latter).

Individually they aren’t close to our level, collectively they are superb. Painting United as some plucky underdogs like Tom did is a clear admission that he thinks Nagelsmann is miles better coach and has done a much better job than Ole in a shorter time frame.

I still fully expect us to get a result there and progress, just as I did when the group was announced.

As u said, of course we have a better squad, but again, despite us spending 3x the money does not mean we get players that are 3x as talented. Just look at our record after Fergie. I've not included players that retired or we sent away on a free transfer

Moyes:
Mata 44 million
Fellaini 33 million

Net 77 million

LvG
Di Maria 75 million (sold for 63 a year later)
Shaw 37 million
Herrera 36 million
Rojo 20 million
Martial 60 million
Schneiderlin 35 million
Depay 35 million
Darmian 18 million

Sold under LvG: Welbeck, Kagawa, Buttner, Zaha, Hernandez, Evans, RvP, Nani, Rafael for 70 million(ish) combined
Net: 183 million

Jose
Pogba 105 million
Miki 45 million
Baily 38 million
Zlatan 0 million
Lukaku 84 million
Matic 44 million
Lindelof 35 million
Sanchez - One armenian and a leg and and an arm in wages
Fred 59 million
Dalot 22 million

Sold under Jose: Schnederlin, Depay, Januzaj, Blind for a combined 63 million
Net: 369 (!) million

Ole
Maguire 87 million
Bruno 55 million
AWB 55 million
James 17 million
Ighalo 0 million
VdB 39 million
Telles 15 million
Diallo 21 million
Pellestri 8 million
Cavani 0 million

Out under Ole: Lukaku, Smalling, Darmian, Young, Fellaini 100 million combined
Net 197 million

Looking at that i think we could draw a couple of conclusions
1. Ed and Moyes faffed about too much and fecked up the summer window

2. We saw a lot of players come and go under LvG, but i honestly dont think we strengthened that much under him despite spending nearly 200 million net. Shaw, Martial and Herrera were all decent transfers, but not exactly steals. The amount of talent we let go for just above 70 million combined is just disgusting

3. We wasted A LOT of money under Jose. Lukaku and Pogba no doubt had/have some resale value and Fred is now much closer to justifying that price, but other than that is a bit of a shambles imo

4. We got bent over by Leichester re the Maguire transfer, but other than that i think our transfer record under Ole is much, much better than the previous ones.

5. From when Fergie resigned we are looking at a net spend of 826 million give or take. No doubt the squad that Fergie left was getting older, but there was a lot of quality and winning experience in that team. In terms of quality and talent i dont think our current squad is any stronger than the one Fergie left us with in 2013, despite spending nearly a billion euros in that time frame.

6. Thank God for our academy, and more specifically Rashford and Greenwood, because if we had to go shopping for players of similar talent i'd wager that be another 150-200 million in transfers fees

My conclusion: Our spending is not properly reflected in the quality of the squad. Every club makes some cock ups in the market once in a while, but we have made way to many of them over the last 7-8 years. Just because Leipzig have spent far less in the same time frame does not mean their squad is far inferior

 

[Nytram Shakes]

We scored 3 goals, yet you are complaining we cannot beak down a defence.

When you meet that kind of aggressive press, it not such a bad idea to get the ball faster up the pitch, typically to a meeting attacker. He´ll have a man in his back, but he´s still first on the ball and you could hope he´d be able to hold on to it while more people are added to the attack. Normally, Martial is quite good at it. In the first half, that was more the idea than hoping for a through ball.

When Fernades came we scored and was a key part in all 3 goals, before that we had absolutely no idea what to do we looked utterly lost on what to do to breakdown 2 well-drilled lines of 4. Which is my point our tactics are basically hope to counter-attack or hope Fernandes can create something.

Other teams move the ball quickly, they play between the lines drag players out of position, switch positions quickly, have quick passing moves obviously rehearsed in training. We don't do any of that. Our plan was to set up with 3 attackers to basically sit on their defence and hope at some point they leave room behind for them to run on to, that was it. The only player we had playing between their midfield and attack was Donny and he didn't seem to have a clue what or where he was meant to be playing.

We shouldn't be this reliant on Fernades, On paper, there should be enough talent on this team that when trained correctly can pick apart defences, but clearly, that isn't the case. The game was basically last season in miniature. First half no idea how to attack that isn't a counter-attack then Fernades comes in and luckily he is good enough to pick out the right pass.

 

[wolvored]

Why would it? We've har 3 great results in 3 games where we played very well, and one loss in which we also played incredibly well. Not moving on from the group doesnt nullify those performances.

What about the poor loss in Istanbulas well?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

As u said, of course we have a better squad, but again, despite us spending 3x the money does not mean we get players that are 3x as talented. Just look at our record after Fergie. I've not included players that retired or we sent away on a free transfer

Moyes:
Mata 44 million
Fellaini 33 million

Net 77 million

LvG
Di Maria 75 million (sold for 63 a year later)
Shaw 37 million
Herrera 36 million
Rojo 20 million
Martial 60 million
Schneiderlin 35 million
Depay 35 million
Darmian 18 million

Sold under LvG: Welbeck, Kagawa, Buttner, Zaha, Hernandez, Evans, RvP, Nani, Rafael for 70 million(ish) combined
Net: 183 million

Jose
Pogba 105 million
Miki 45 million
Baily 38 million
Zlatan 0 million
Lukaku 84 million
Matic 44 million
Lindelof 35 million
Sanchez - One armenian and a leg and and an arm in wages
Fred 59 million
Dalot 22 million

Sold under Jose: Schnederlin, Depay, Januzaj, Blind for a combined 63 million
Net: 369 (!) million

Ole
Maguire 87 million
Bruno 55 million
AWB 55 million
James 17 million
Ighalo 0 million
VdB 39 million
Telles 15 million
Diallo 21 million
Pellestri 8 million
Cavani 0 million

Out under Ole: Lukaku, Smalling, Darmian, Young, Fellaini 100 million combined
Net 197 million

Looking at that i think we could draw a couple of conclusions
1. Ed and Moyes faffed about too much and fecked up the summer window

2. We saw a lot of players come and go under LvG, but i honestly dont think we strengthened that much under him despite spending nearly 200 million net. Shaw, Martial and Herrera were all decent transfers, but not exactly steals. The amount of talent we let go for just above 70 million combined is just disgusting

3. We wasted A LOT of money under Jose. Lukaku and Pogba no doubt had/have some resale value and Fred is now much closer to justifying that price, but other than that is a bit of a shambles imo

4. We got bent over by Leichester re the Maguire transfer, but other than that i think our transfer record under Ole is much, much better than the previous ones.

5. From when Fergie resigned we are looking at a net spend of 826 million give or take. No doubt the squad that Fergie left was getting older, but there was a lot of quality and winning experience in that team. In terms of quality and talent i dont think our current squad is any stronger than the one Fergie left us with in 2013, despite spending nearly a billion euros in that time frame.

6. Thank God for our academy, and more specifically Rashford and Greenwood, because if we had to go shopping for players of similar talent i'd wager that be another 150-200 million in transfers fees

My conclusion: Our spending is not properly reflected in the quality of the squad. Every club makes some cock ups in the market once in a while, but we have made way to many of them over the last 7-8 years. Just because Leipzig have spent far less in the same time frame does not mean their squad is far inferior

That doesn't even tell the full storey, Inagalo has cost us about 10+ million in loan fees, Cavani 10+ million in Agent fees. Zlatan and Sanchez got mega signing on bonus and the largest annual wage in premier league history at their respective time, and we also paid Sanchez about 15 million to leave! To put it in perspective our central defence yesterday cost about the same as the whole west ham starting 11. And at no point have I watched Maguire and Lindelof and gone that's a world-class partnership.

Still having said that, the team we put on the field yesterday should with better coaching have at least an idea of how to break down well-organised defences. The front 5 we put out yesterday are on paper really good. So why they looked like players who didn't have a clue what to do with the ball in the first half is beyond me.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Why are you assuming that Ole is negotiating player prices? What is payed for players isn't really on the manager. Not for Ole, not for Naggelsman, there are other people involved in negotiating.

So what? Ole had Maguire as his first choice target thinking he’d cost 20m quid? And AWB as his first choice RB thinking he’d cost a tenner?

Get real Ole @Jaqen H'ghar, Ole makes use of a much bigger budget and pick his targets according to that budget, he's fully aware of the likely price as we bloody all are these days, the second interest in a player is announced we almost always know what the selling club is demanding. Nagelsman pick his targets to a much smaller budget, he'd probably love a Fernandes, a Maguire, or 50m for a full back, but he can't have them.

In the same time span Ole has spent over 300m when Nagelsmann has spent just over 100m.

The point stands, our squad is plenty better than theirs, so if we’re “underdogs” it’s either due to Nagelsmann’s coaching or him being wiser with his budget. It can’t be neither.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Doesn't it worry people that Ole very rarely gets a tune out of this side unless Bruno is playing? It does me which is why I'm still Ole out. To depend on 1 player at a club our size is ridiculous after 2 years and 300m spent. Don't get me wrong. I think Ole has done a good job in stabilising the ship after the toxicity left behind from Mou but for me without Bruno he doesn't look anything more than a mediocre manager who has a gem of a player on his hands. How sustainable can that be?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I am torn, honestly.
One one hand,I think that he is the guy before the guy, if you get what I mean. For the squad to realize its full potential, we really need a good coach.
On the other hand, I really want this Ole experiment to work out. It would be a good story if the guy who scored arguably the most famous goal in our club's history, leads us out of the dark ages.

I see where you're coming from, but for me, LVG was the guy before the guy, he works on the club's structure brings through young players progresses them and builds a solid foundation. Unfortunately, we then brought in Mourinho who plays the exact opposite style to LVG.

In order for Ole to be the guy before the guy, he would have to be a good coach, which he clearly isn't. The young players are stagnating not improving, the tactical coaching seems to be non-existent. He has done some good work in clearing out players that were obviously a disruptive influence, but there is still obviously an attitude problem within the squad at times.

I'm not sure he is laying that foundation that well for the next guy.

 

[Polar]

No, not objective. RBL and PSG are not what we thought they were. Losing it on the last matchday would be a real bottlejob and would continue to show Ole's inability to prepare the team for something big. Last year we bottled it in 2 semis, going out at this stage would constitute a major collapse in CL. Taking into account the quality of our players, being knocked by Red Bull would show a huge difference between the 2 managers. Our squad should be able to get past this German team. There is no doubt about it.

Why are you taking like we already have lost and conclude with managerial inabilities? What if the opposite happens?

So fare Ole has actually proved his ability to prepare for something big more often then the opposite.

 

[theklr]

Its very worrying to play so bad without our best players in each position. There is some mitigating circumstances , mostly that the midfield really havent played much together (and match practice is the most inportant practice), but still .

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

My conclusion: Our spending is not properly reflected in the quality of the squad. Every club makes some cock ups in the market once in a while, but we have made way to many of them over the last 7-8 years. Just because Leipzig have spent far less in the same time frame does not mean their squad is far inferior

I’m not arguing about our spending since Fergie so this went off on a mad tangent, I’m arguing that Ole has spent 300+m in the same time frame as Nagelsmann has been managing Leipzig.
As you wanted to bring up Ole's OUTS and thus bring up net spend, Nagelsmann has a net spend of 8 million since taking over Leipzig. Around 190 million euros less than Ole.
Nothing was stopping Ole spending his 300m "wiser" and getting Leipzig level players in, so as I say, if Ole's squad is still inferior after 300m spent, that's on Ole.
Personally I think Ole was correct to go for Fernandes, Maguire etc level players, because we're a bigger club than Leipzig and our ultimate goal is much higher than that of Leipzig.

Now let's be straight here, Leipzig didn't make the semis of the CL because of an all conquering squad of individuals, they did it due to a good squad and brilliant coaching of the collective. As an aside, it's no surprise that Dortmund have won neither a Bundesliga nor made a Champions League final again since Klopp's coaching brilliance left that amazingly well run club. Coaching does matter, a lot.

My sole point is that player for player Ole clearly has a better squad* and that Tom painting us as underdogs is either nonsensical, or it's an admittance of Nagelsmann being a miles better coach. *Now Ole himself deserves tonnes of credit for that of course, he has been building the squad for 2 years after all and has spent better than all of those previous managers you listed.

Do you agree with Tom that United were underdogs in this group and that no-one expected us to progress, or not?

 

[Anustart89]

I see where you're coming from, but for me, LVG was the guy before the guy, he works on the club's structure brings through young players progresses them and builds a solid foundation. Unfortunately, we then brought in Mourinho who plays the exact opposite style to LVG.

In order for Ole to be the guy before the guy, he would have to be a good coach, which he clearly isn't. The young players are stagnating not improving, the tactical coaching seems to be non-existent. He has done some good work in clearing out players that were obviously a disruptive influence, but there is still obviously an attitude problem within the squad at times.

I'm not sure he is laying that foundation that well for the next guy.

I'm a bit torn on that one. Ole could definitely be laying the foundations for the next guy - if the board is proactive and realises we're not going towards league titles/CL titles with him. If the board's happy hovering around 3rd-6th with Ole in charge and Ole stays on for 5-6 years, it's likely that the chance to be the guy before the guy may pass us by.

There's a lot of potential in this squad at this stage, but give it three years and you can easily see somebody going for our best players. We're in a pretty good position to have our best or most promising players being those with a strong affinity for the club (Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood), but how much is that worth to a player once he starts looking at the peak years of his career with only Top 4 trophies in the cabinet?

 

[Bobcat]

I’m not arguing about our spending since Fergie so this went off on a mad tangent, I’m arguing that Ole has spent 300+m in the same time frame as Nagelsmann has been managing Leipzig.
As you wanted to bring up Ole's OUTS and thus net spend, Nagelsmann has a net spend of 8 million since taking over.
Nothing was stopping Ole spending that 300m "wiser" and getting Leipzig level players in, so as I say, if Ole's squad is still inferior after 300m spent, that's on Ole.

Leipzig didn't make the semis of the CL because of an all conquering squad of individuals, they did it due to a good squad and brilliant coaching of the collective. As an aside, it's no surprise that Dortmund have won neither a Bundesliga nor made a Champions League final again since Klopp's coaching brilliance left that amazingly well run club.

My sole point is that player for player Ole clearly has a better squad and that Tom painting us as underdogs in nonsensical, Ole himself deserves tonnes of credit for that of course, he has been building the squad for 2 years after all and has spent better than all of those previous managers you listed.

Do you agree with Tom that United were underdogs in this group and that no-one expected us to progress, or not?

Eh. No doubt Werner is a huge miss for them and on paper we should be the stronger team.

Honestly i dont really know. I dont watch a whole lot of Bundesliga tbh and the only times i've actually watched Leipzig has been in the CL. This whole debate about spending vs achievements is a bit shallow though imo, since you lose almost all nuance there.

Its a bit like the whole Poch debate, where you have his fans shouting from the rooftops about how brilliant he must be, reaching a CL final with such a low net spend, but it completely ignores the fact that Spurs had and have a pretty solid squad despite spending much less than other clubs of similar quality

 

[Water Melon]

I see that reason and perspective has left the building, and so will I this discussion.

There was nothing more than a huge underestimation of our squad and a pair of very thick top red glasses on, so there has never been any objectivity in the first place. Leaving the building is all good, enjoy your own world, where Ole deserves to be managing one of the biggest and richest football clubs in the world and is let down mainly by his players and the Board, while failing to acknowledge that nobody out side of some of United fans consider him to be a top manager.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

but it completely ignores the fact that Spurs had and have a pretty solid squad despite spending much less than other clubs of similar quality

Which such be lauded no?

Look at Arsenal now, clear as day proof of how difficult it was for Wenger to work under such a stringent budget. They’ve been worse since, despite opening the cheque book.

Surely managers deserve credit for working under smaller budgets and doing well?

But yeah, we’re clearly agreed that Tom setting us up as big underdogs was another case of him getting an early excuse in for us failing to get out of the group.
I don’t get it, we should beat Leipzig, United & PSG are clearly the strongest squads in the group. Nagelsmann definitely closes the gap though which is a credit to him.
As I say, I expected us to progress, but knew it could be tricky due to what Nagelsmann has done, and getting through a tricky group is always a job well done.

And failures happen, plenty of top managers have gone out in the groups, even as favourites. The constant desperation from the likes of Tom to absolve the management of any blame, even preemptive, is tiring.

He won’t get fired if we lose, and he won’t suddenly be a manager qualifying against the odds if we get a result.
As always, there’s middle ground.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

We beat West Ham 3-1. A tricky fixture. Good subs, good goals, good win.

I'm confident we'll get a result against City with the way we've been playing lately. Ole and his team has done a good job of getting the team back on track after a shaky start to the season.
Are we perfect? No. Not at all. Are we a good team, currently in contention and playing some very, very good football at times? For sure.

 

[Tom Cato]

What about the poor loss in Istanbulas well?

That was a poor result so it doesnt make it on a list of good performances. Is that the one you choose to focus on?

 

[troylocker]

Doesn't it worry people that Ole very rarely gets a tune out of this side unless Bruno is playing? It does me which is why I'm still Ole out. To depend on 1 player at a club our size is ridiculous after 2 years and 300m spent. Don't get me wrong. I think Ole has done a good job in stabilising the ship after the toxicity left behind from Mou but for me without Bruno he doesn't look anything more than a mediocre manager who has a gem of a player on his hands. How sustainable can that be?

We have one "box opener" in the squad, so it's not that hard to imagine it is harder to open those "boxes" without it. Some of the greatest teams in modern football was built around 1 player. It really isn't an uncommon thing. Good teams needs leaders on the pitch, that sets the bar and make things click. I wonder how Mou would look this season without Son/Kane.
That we have found a player and found a way to utilize him that makes us click, should be the opposite of a stick to beat the manager with. We should obviously strenghten our squad with more key players to gain consistency and be less vulnerable to injuries.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Doesn't it worry people that Ole very rarely gets a tune out of this side unless Bruno is playing?

Not in the slightest. Just shows how good Bruno is.

Some fans asking for 2-3 more of “his standard” are fooling themselves, we’ll be lucky if we find 1.

 

[Striker10]

We shouldn't worry about Bruno being so influential. Madrid relied on Ronaldo to keep up with Barcelona. They would have still done decent without him (without many of the trophies) but he was like Bruno is for us. In the 80's many people would say Robson was that for United and in the 90's Cantona perhaps. So people are maybe trying to imply Oles lucky. When you remove Bruno from the team, any team would suffer. But we're not the finished article. Pogba has the potential but he's not as driven as Bruno and will never get the numbers but we're not a one man team. It's just like any side missing their best and most effective player.

What we lack when Brunos not playing in energy. But even when he's played, our problems been at home so maybe the lack of crowd hits us harder then most teams. Usually, you'd rely on a player to excite fans but there are no fans. We need to be braver on the ball as often we play it forwards and are in space but play it back too soon. The players need to be more ambitious

 

[troylocker]

I’m not arguing about our spending since Fergie so this went off on a mad tangent, I’m arguing that Ole has spent 300+m in the same time frame as Nagelsmann has been managing Leipzig.
As you wanted to bring up Ole's OUTS and thus bring up net spend, Nagelsmann has a net spend of 8 million since taking over Leipzig. Around 190 million euros less than Ole.
Nothing was stopping Ole spending his 300m "wiser" and getting Leipzig level players in, so as I say, if Ole's squad is still inferior after 300m spent, that's on Ole.
Personally I think Ole was correct to go for Fernandes, Maguire etc level players, because we're a bigger club than Leipzig and our ultimate goal is much higher than that of Leipzig.

Now let's be straight here, Leipzig didn't make the semis of the CL because of an all conquering squad of individuals, they did it due to a good squad and brilliant coaching of the collective. As an aside, it's no surprise that Dortmund have won neither a Bundesliga nor made a Champions League final again since Klopp's coaching brilliance left that amazingly well run club. Coaching does matter, a lot.

My sole point is that player for player Ole clearly has a better squad* and that Tom painting us as underdogs is either nonsensical, or it's an admittance of Nagelsmann being a miles better coach. *Now Ole himself deserves tonnes of credit for that of course, he has been building the squad for 2 years after all and has spent better than all of those previous managers you listed.

Do you agree with Tom that United were underdogs in this group and that no-one expected us to progress, or not?

First of all, I agree that we have a better squad than Leipzig.
I still think comparing net spend is irrelevant when comparing the squads though. RBL's business model is buy cheap sell expensive. They are a selling club, and Redbull have invested a lot of money on becoming the best in the world when it comes to scouting and developing talent. RBL is on top of the Redbull foodchain and can cherry pick young talent from their farmer clubs (like RB Salzburg) for peanuts. We buy players close to their peak.

That said. We have the quality to beat them, but this is football and it is not like we should beat them 5 out of 5 times.
I look forward to see if Nagelsman learned his lesson the last time and chooses a less naive approach this time. Our advantage is that they must win, and that will give us some space to attack up front.

 

[b82REZ]

Before the CL campaign started we had no actual expectation of going through

Speak for yourself.

I'd go into more detail but @Regulus Arcturus Black has nailed it in all his responses to you, which you've conveniently ignored.

 

[b82REZ]

No, worse, it makes them completely irrelevant.

No one will remember the good performances nor care, only that we limped out of the CL at the group stages.

I wouldn't say no one. The usual suspects will still point to the first two games regardless of whether we progress or not.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Not in the slightest. Just shows how good Bruno is.

Some fans asking for 2-3 more of “his standard” are fooling themselves, we’ll be lucky if we find 1.

To be honest I'm not sure there are any other players of his standard. There are better players out there but with his fire, drive and never say die attitude I really can't think of anyone else. De Bruyne is probably the closest there is but what's the chances of getting him?

Grealish wouldn't be a bad shout because it does pose the obvious question, what happens if Bruno gets injured?

 

[Tom Cato]

Speak for yourself.

I'd go into more detail but @Regulus Arcturus Black has nailed it in all his responses to you, which you've conveniently ignored.

if I had any passion to discuss this in depth my replies would be longer than oneliners that can be disproven, like any oneliners can.

I'm just lazy. Like you.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That said. We have the quality to beat them, but this is football and it is not like we should beat them 5 out of 5 times.

Absolutely mate, it’s a tricky group that required navigating. And after our start, it’ll be a feck up now to go out.
Interested to see how Nagelsmann responds to the Rashford threat, very interested.

 

[Stack]

Since Fergie we have had Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole. Just in terms of our style play I will pick Ole every day of the week, the others were just awful ranging from basic through to tediously dull. Having said that I did vote for Ole out in this poll but that would only be if we got someone amazing in.

 

[Bobcat]

Which such be lauded no?

Look at Arsenal now, clear as day proof of how difficult it was for Wenger to work under such a stringent budget. They’ve been worse since, despite opening the cheque book.

Surely managers deserve credit for working under smaller budgets and doing well?

But yeah, we’re clearly agreed that Tom setting us up as big underdogs was another case of him getting an early excuse in for us failing to get out of the group.
I don’t get it, we should beat Leipzig, United & PSG are clearly the strongest squads in the group. Nagelsmann definitely closes the gap though which is a credit to him.
As I say, I expected us to progress, but knew it could be tricky due to what Nagelsmann has done, and getting through a tricky group is always a job well done.

And failures happen, plenty of top managers have gone out in the groups, even as favourites. The constant desperation from the likes of Tom to absolve the management of any blame, even preemptive, is tiring.

He won’t get fired if we lose, and he won’t suddenly be a manager qualifying against the odds if we get a result.
As always, there’s middle ground.

Of course its more difficult working under a smaller budget, but at the end of the day, not all of the credit or blame should go to the managers of the respective clubs as they are far from the only ones who are involved in the transfer dealings of a club.

Spurs while they were financing their new stadium and Arsenal under Wenger absolutely deserves credit for staying competitive and a relatively small budget, but as i said its not only down to the managers. Spurs for example got Son for a measly 30 million, which is an absolute steal, but i dont think we can give Poch all the credit here because i highly doubt he brokered that deal in person

And yes, i do agree. Despite Leipzig being the worst team to get from pot 3, we should be able to go past them

 

[b82REZ]

if I had any passion to discuss this in depth my replies would be longer than oneliners that can be disproven, like any oneliners can.

I'm just lazy. Like you.

No passion but reply to tell me you don't care.

Your post was more than a one liner. I've just reduced it to its most ridiculous, excuse making line.

Sounds more like you know you've chatted shit and rightfully been banged (metaphorically speaking).