X-File 02 - Prophecies, Nostradamus to the Mayans and all that lies in between.

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Random coincidence? The travelling of an ancient prediction through the ages and adopted by other cultures? Or the unexplainable and troubled times lay ahead?

What say you?



Next week the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[Wibble]

I think this quote from Wikipedia sums the whole thing up nicely,

"By contrast, most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus's quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus's quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance."

I bet RooneyGR8 thinks they are great.

 

[Rooney gr8]

I think this quote from Wikipedia sums the whole thing up nicely,

"By contrast, most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus's quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus's quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance."

I bet RooneyGR8 thinks they are great.

wikepedia..do me a favour..
but thanks for the mention

ps
research more wibbs..its rather interesting when read with an open mind!

 

[Rood]

I always thought Nostradamus was just off his tits on some kind of old school hallucinogen

However, I do believe there might be something in the study of astrology - Im not sure what exactly though ...

 

[DoctorEvil]

Random coincidence? The travelling of an ancient prediction through the ages and adopted by other cultures? Or the unexplainable and troubled times lay ahead?

What say you?



Next week the Bermuda Triangle.

Its no coincidence, and these are not prophecies. Why this combination? Read on.

We humans are fairly good at fooling ourselves. In this case there are several things which help us convince ourselves that there is some connection when there is none to be found.

One element has to do with what is sometimes called the shooter fallacy. It has to do with fitting the details after the event has already occurred. (The shooter fallacy - painting the target after you shot.)

Another has to do with confirmation bias. This has to do with us tending to remember events which fit our worldview and forget others. This allows us to remember one hit from a 'prophet' while ignoring several misses. (Note that the hit may not be that good, due to the shooter fallacy.)

How does these work together. Lets play a little game. Imagine that I am now entering into a trance, and telling you that I see a vision:

In the second year of the new ruler a great fire storm would hit the old city. The earth will tremble.

Does this mean anything? Of course not, as I just invented it.

However, we can wait a couple of years. Then, of say, there is some kind of conflagration in the middle east, then naturally I meant that the new ruler is related to the new Israeli government, and fire has to do with war, while the old city is Jerusalem. If there is a big fire in Rome, (or any other historical city) again we are fine. If nothing happens, well you wont remember this, wont you?

This is the mechanism which help such nonsense to propagate itself. So, unless such prophecies are specific so that we know what they say in advance, and we can follow several and find how many come true, they are useless. The only thing keeping these with us is our need to feel safe, and in control, in a chaotic world. It past time we mature and leave this nonsense behind.

One final point. Nick, are you sure you want to start a similar thread each weak? I am very lazy and the though of composing such a long response every week makes me

 

[Rooney gr8]

I always thought Nostradamus was just off his tits on some kind of old school hallucinogen

However, I do believe there might be something in the study of astrology - Im not sure what exactly though ...

I think he was persecuted for his visionary abillities, which is why he chose to write in quantrains. He was a consultant to the french royal family I think.

but I am not saying he did not use hallucinogens, he maywell have done.

 

[Rooney gr8]

Its no coincidence, and these are not prophecies. Why this combination? Read on.

We humans are fairly good at fooling ourselves. In this case there are several things which help us convince ourselves that there is some connection when there is none to be found.

One element has to do with what is sometimes called the shooter fallacy. It has to do with fitting the details after the event has already occurred. (The shooter fallacy - painting the target after you shot.)

Another has to do with confirmation bias. This has to do with us tending to remember events which fit our worldview and forget others. This allows us to remember one hit from a 'prophet' while ignoring several misses. (Note that the hit may not be that good, due to the shooter fallacy.)

How does these work together. Lets play a little game. Imagine that I am now entering into a trance, and telling you that I see a vision:

Does this mean anything? Of course not, as I just invented it.

However, we can wait a couple of years. Then, of say, there is some kind of conflagration in the middle east, then naturally I meant that the new ruler is related to the new Israeli government, and fire has to do with war, while the old city is Jerusalem. If there is a big fire in Rome, (or any other historical city) again we are fine. If nothing happens, well you wont remember this, wont you?

This is the mechanism which help such nonsense to propagate itself. So, unless such prophecies are specific so that we know what they say in advance, and we can follow several and find how many come true, they are useless. The only thing keeping these with us is our need to feel safe, and in control, in a chaotic world. It past time we mature and leave this nonsense behind.

One final point. Nick, are you sure you want to start a similar thread each weak? I am very lazy and the though of composing such a long response every week makes me

he wrote in quantrains, so if you are to 'play a game' then please, play it fully. not half heartedly making your points, loose, and unconvincing!

so please, enter your trance again and tell us you full quantrain..

then we shall see if you are indeed a charlaten, or if you actually do have receptive tubules in your brain, capable of picking up signals from the quantum plane regarding future events..

 

[DoctorEvil]

he wrote in quantrains, so if you are to 'play a game' then please, play it fully. not half heartedly making your points, loose, and unconvincing!

so please, enter your trance again and tell us you full quantrain..

then we shall see if you are indeed a charlaten, or if you actually do have receptive tubules in your brain, capable of picking up signals from the quantum plane regarding future events..

I am too lazy to invent a quantrain, and do not think that this is essential to the point I was trying to make. He also wrote in French. Do you also expect me to learn French before trying my hand in prophecy?

 

[Eriku]

Good lord... it's actually a live one.

Receptive tubules picking up signals from the quantum plane... lol... and you utter "do me a favour.." when someone refers to Wiki.

 

[Rooney gr8]

I am too lazy to invent a quantrain, and do not think that this is essential to the point I was trying to make. He also wrote in French. Do you also expect me to learn French before trying my hand in prophecy?

of coarse not, learn frech, why? how would that be of any use on an english speaking forum?

but you had enough will to post, but not enough to carry your argument!

I think you have just confirmed my point anyway..that prophesy is not as easy as you would insist..for, you couldnt even make up a fake quantrain, it was too much effort, Imagine the energy used by NOSTRADAMUS, who could be considered the Zidane or Cantona of prophecy.. in fact, the most famous in the world!

 

[DoctorEvil]

of coarse not, learn frech, why? how would that be of any use on an english speaking forum?

but you had enough will to post, but not enough to carry your argument!

I think you have just confirmed my point anyway..that prophesy is not as easy as you would insist..for, you couldnt even make up a fake quantrain, it was too much effort, Imagine the energy used by NOSTRADAMUS, who could be considered the Zidane or Cantona of prophecy.. in fact, the most famous in the world!

I have no wish to be actually considered a prophet. In fact, I view this as a way of conning people, either for money or for fame. This is exactly what Nostradamus got from that. This is also the reason he put the effort needed, which is not that much of an effort.

 

[Rooney gr8]

Good lord... it's actually a live one.

Receptive tubules picking up signals from the quantum plane... lol... and you utter "do me a favour.." when someone refers to Wiki.

why? that is front line theory of quantum phsyics, quite plausible too I might add. There has been vast amounts of money spent by militarys of great power, researching the effects of psychic driving and the like, with a great deal of success..it stands to reason, then that there must be some scientific rationale for this.



where as wiki is editable by anycunt..we have seen the quality edits by (plech i think) here on the caf referring to scousers..

 

[Rooney gr8]

I have no wish to be actually considered a prophet. In fact, I view this as a way of conning people, either for money or for fame. This is exactly what Nostradamus got from that. This is also the reason he put the effort needed, which is not that much of an effort.

clearly, it was when considering your effort!

and to think, he wrote so many!

 

[DoctorEvil]

[/B]
clearly, it was when considering your effort!

and to think, he wrote so many!

I have a job. Writing this crap was his job.

 

[DoctorEvil]

why? that is front line theory of quantum phsyics, quite plausible too I might add. There has been vast amounts of money spent by militarys of great power, researching the effects of psychic driving and the like, with a great deal of success..it stands to reason, then that there must be some scientific rationale for this.

I am sorry, but



PS, It would not let me put more smilies. Please imagine there are more, and more, and then add more.

 

[Rooney gr8]

I have a job. Writing this crap was his job.

I am very pleased for you..

 

[Eriku]

To me it sounds like pseudoscientific justification for prophecy. Care to link to any articles that have quantum mechanical explanations for that sort of thing, and which is also deemed a credible in mainstream science?

I'm not sure what psychic driving has to do with it?

And fair enough, Wikipedia is easily edited, but that doesn't discredit it entirely, does it now? It's also a tremendously accessible source, and fairly often accurate.

 

[Rooney gr8]

I am sorry, but

??what?

it is, you should read more!

 

[DoctorEvil]

??what?

it is, you should read more!

I am quite well versed in Quantum mechanics.

 

[Eriku]

I am quite well versed in Quantum mechanics.

Phew, 'cause I'd be in deep waters if I were to try to debunk it, on any other account than that it sounds ludicrous... even for quantum theory ;P

 

[Rooney gr8]

To me it sounds like pseudoscientific justification for prophecy. Care to link to any articles that have quantum mechanical explanations for that sort of thing, and which is also deemed a credible in mainstream science?

I'm not sure what psychic driving has to do with it?

And fair enough, Wikipedia is easily edited, but that doesn't discredit it entirely, does it now? It's also a tremendously accessible source, and fairly often accurate.

this is what i meant.

I will post refferences soon, I was reading some stuff before christmas on this very interesting subject..the american goverment have spent over $50M on this, and they only stopped due to pressure from christian politicians, siting this to be occultic! regardless of its success.

I have to dig these out, but check back soon.. they will all be fully reasearchable and have credibility.

 

[Rooney gr8]

I am quite well versed in Quantum mechanics.

so are you denying its the case then?

 

[Wibble]

wikepedia..do me a favour..
but thanks for the mention

ps
research more wibbs..its rather interesting when read with an open mind!

Wikipedia is often excellent even if occasionally it is rubbish. However, with something so obviously garbage as Nostradamus it isn't worth the energy of doing more.

And the only interesting thing is how people can possibly believe this drivel.

 

[Eriku]

this is what i meant.

I will post refferences soon, I was reading some stuff before christmas on this very interesting subject..the american goverment have spent over $50M on this, and they only stopped due to pressure from christian politicians, siting this to be occultic! regardless of its success.

I have to dig these out, but check back soon.. they will all be fully reasearchable and have credibility.

Looking forward to it... But I still don't see what the mind control experiments have to do with anything.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Rooney gr0, do you believe then that we will experience some cataclysmic even in 2012 out of interest?

 

[x42bn6]

Science: Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence -> Conclusion (or lack of one).

Conspiracy theorists: Conclusion (Nostradamus was correct) -> Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence

This is known as the "reverse scientific method". Start with conclusion, find selective evidence to support said conclusion, then make a lot of noise.

The same goes for 9/11 Truthers, 7/7 Conspiracy Theorists, religious bigots, ...

 

[Eriku]

Science: Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence -> Conclusion (or lack of one).

Conspiracy theorists: Conclusion (Nostradamus was correct) -> Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence

This is known as the "reverse scientific method". Start with conclusion, find selective evidence to support said conclusion, then make a lot of noise.

The same goes for 9/11 Truthers, 7/7 Conspiracy Theorists, religious bigots, ...

Eck... and for some reason the great unhosed love noise :P

 

[Rooney gr8]

Looking forward to it... But I still don't see what the mind control experiments have to do with anything.

psyche = mind
psychic = of the mind

a good place to start is arthur young, (famous for the bell helicopter invention), read his 'arc of light', an excellent starting point, who was involved with mk ultra programmes in the military and cia along with Uri Geller, of all people, amongst many others..exploring the power of the mind, its effects and abillities..

 

[DoctorEvil]

so are you denying its the case then?

As far as I know, several governments have invested in such programs, with no real results. This just shows that a person in a high position can be as gullible as a random person you can find on the street. It is also a shameful waste of public funds.

The word salad that is typically presented as a "scientific explanation" for these is just that. A collection of words without actual meaning. It has no credibility in the scientific community. (It is possible to find a scientist or two which will buy any stupid idea, but they typically fail to produce evidence to convince the rest of us.)

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I doubt it needs saying that we'd be best of were all these "prophecies" [as they are interpreted] indeed turn out to be pleasantly inaccurate or some fiction. Particularly with how they reckon the near future will unfold.

Is it not odd that they as far as i am aware at least, don't seem to predict the positive changes that will occur in their relative futures?

 

[Rooney gr8]

Science: Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence -> Conclusion (or lack of one).

Conspiracy theorists: Conclusion (Nostradamus was correct) -> Mayans, Nostradamus, evidence

This is known as the "reverse scientific method". Start with conclusion, find selective evidence to support said conclusion, then make a lot of noise.

The same goes for 9/11 Truthers, 7/7 Conspiracy Theorists, religious bigots, ...

what about the mayans?

were the mayans real or conspiracy theroists?
whats your point?

also this reverse scientific method is used by many people in society, to great effect, not just the foil hat brigade

you know so much about all these events, why are the police arresting people for making dvd's regarding 7/7 if its only foil hat people with laughable theorys?

 

[Wibble]

I think he was persecuted for his visionary abillities, which is why he chose to write in quantrains. He was a consultant to the french royal family I think.

Bollocks.

"Some accounts of Nostradamus's life state that he was afraid of being persecuted for heresy by the Inquisition, but neither prophecy nor astrology fell in this bracket, and he would have been in danger only if he had practiced magic to support them. In fact, his relationship with the Church as a prophet and healer was excellent. His brief imprisonment at Marignane in late 1561 came about purely because he had published his 1562 almanac without the prior permission of a bishop, contrary to a recent royal decree"

And what does writing in quintrains have to do with being persecuted?

A quatrain is a poem composed of two rhyming couplets, or a stanza within a poem, that consists always of four lines. The rhyming patterns include aabb, abab, abba, abcb, aaba, or aaaa (and arguably abbb). it is linked into sonnets.

In its narrow meaning, the term is restricted to a complete poem consisting of only four lines. In its broader sense, it includes any one of many four-verse stanza forms. In African poetry, it is the most common of all stanza forms.

 

[x42bn6]

what about the mayans?

were the mayans real or conspiracy theroists?
whats your point?

also this reverse scientific method is used by many people in society, to great effect, not just the foil hat brigade

you know so much about all these events, why are the police arresting people for making dvd's regarding 7/7 if its only foil hat people with laughable theorys?

The reverse scientific method is fallacious, you know.

Lots of people do things which aren't correct.

The scientific method has always been to start with the evidence upwards. The wrong thing to do is look from conclusions ("the government is hiding something regarding 7/7") to draw evidence ("the police are arresting people selling 7/7 DVDs").

 

[Rooney gr8]

As far as I know, several governments have invested in such programs, with no real results. This just shows that a person in a high position can be as gullible as a random person you can find on the street. It is also a shameful waste of public funds.

The word salad that is typically presented as a "scientific explanation" for these is just that. A collection of words without actual meaning. It has no credibility in the scientific community. (It is possible to find a scientist or two which will buy any stupid idea, but they typically fail to produce evidence to convince the rest of us.)[/QUOTE]

have you even read anything regarding this subject and the science involved?
or is this pure conjecture?
do you think the CIA and Russians at the height of the cold war would feck about, creating 'word salads'?

 

[DoctorEvil]

Is it not odd that they as far as i am aware at least, don't seem to predict the positive changes that will occur in their relative futures?

Not really. The market for prophecies of doom was always larger than one for prophecies such as 'we will all have enough food next winter'. The former is much more interesting, and somehow people always assume that since they 'know' they will be able to avoid the looming disaster.

 

[DoctorEvil]

have you even read anything regarding this subject and the science involved?
or is this pure conjecture?
do you think the CIA and Russians at the height of the cold war would feck about, creating 'word salads'?

I read a little about this. And yes, I do think they fecked about and wasted money on nonsense. Its a shame, but I would not be surprised if they will also do it again, and again, and again.

 

[Eriku]

Reading this thread and then finding an advert at the bottom for 100% accurate horoscope from professional Jenna makes me want to cry.

 

[Rooney gr8]

The reverse scientific method is fallacious, you know.
Lots of people do things which aren't correct.

The scientific method has always been to start with the evidence upwards. The wrong thing to do is look from conclusions ("the government is hiding something regarding 7/7") to draw evidence ("the police are arresting people selling 7/7 DVDs").
then, why have the media pulled their reports regarding certain issues?

tell that to the official 911 conspiracy theory

 

[x42bn6]

tell that to the official 911 conspiracy theory

Perhaps... It's not newsworthy?

 

[Rooney gr8]

I read a little about this. And yes, I do think they fecked about and wasted money on nonsense. Its a shame, but I would not be surprised if they will also do it again, and again, and again.

but quantum physics lies just behing the door of the mind..
Why shame? why nonsense? it is sought after knowledge..break free from your conditioned mind and trread the frontier..people may laugh, you may get things wrong..so what, the fruits possible are the sweetest imaginable.

its the best cure for the mudanitys of a life conforming!