Yang 2020

Arruda

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I saw the video with Joe Rogan when you (or someone else) first posted it and really enjoyed it.

Other than the policies themselves, whether you like them or not, the approach of discussing them in pragmatic terms is refreshing. I got the idea he's not experienced in politics though, which will probably be a major hurdle.

And he's already being fecked around with now. This is the top search result in google news:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/democrat-andrew-yang-garners-support-from-white-nationalists
 

Organic Potatoes

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I don't know if each of the myriad of Dem 2020 candidates need their own threads, especially one that doesn't stand a chance.
 

VeevaVee

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For some reason I can't scroll on that page.

Looking at his policies here:
https://www.yang2020.com/policies/

What he mentions on gun law may the first step to banning them. Tiered licensing making it more difficult to get them and eventually reducing the numbers. Only problem is the NRA will probably see this and smear him/anyone who tries it, no? And even if it happened, another loony could get in after and just reverse it all.

Keen to see what his more barmy policies are if I can get on the Vice page properly.
 

Charlie Foley

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I saw the video with Joe Rogan when you (or someone else) first posted it and really enjoyed it.

Other than the policies themselves, whether you like them or not, the approach of discussing them in pragmatic terms is refreshing. I got the idea he's not experienced in politics though, which will probably be a major hurdle.

And he's already being fecked around with now. This is the top search result in google news:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/democrat-andrew-yang-garners-support-from-white-nationalists
He's the son of (I think) Taiwanese immigrants. I don't think we have to worry about him being a white nationalist. They can vote for him all they want. Let them be disappointed again.
 

Arruda

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He's the son of (I think) Taiwanese immigrants. I don't think we have to worry about him being a white nationalist. They can vote for him all they want. Let them be disappointed again.
Oh, he obviously isn't, that's not into question, and if you read the article he makes whatever he can to renounce their support.

I just posted it as I found it "funny" that the first thing you see on google when you search for him is an incredibly damaging headline.
 

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For some reason I can't scroll on that page.

Looking at his policies here:
https://www.yang2020.com/policies/

What he mentions on gun law may the first step to banning them. Tiered licensing making it more difficult to get them and eventually reducing the numbers. Only problem is the NRA will probably see this and smear him/anyone who tries it, no? And even if it happened, another loony could get in after and just reverse it all.

Keen to see what his more barmy policies are if I can get on the Vice page properly.
Probably, but then the NRA will try to smear anyone who isn't for absolutely everything they want. Not much use appeasing them.
 

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This really doesn't need its own thread. He might be interesting, but he's also not going to get anywhere near the nomination. We already have a 2020 thread and a US politics thread, where there's already been discussion about Yang. Why not just continue that?

If we had threads on every 2020 candidate, the entire first page would be filled up.
 

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I really can't take the idea of universal basic income seriously but otherwise he seems like a sound and interesting person to listen to.
 

Charlie Foley

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Oh, he obviously isn't, that's not into question, and if you read the article he makes whatever he can to renounce their support.

I just posted it as I found it "funny" that the first thing you see on google when you search for him is an incredibly damaging headline.
Sorry I didn’t mean to direct my comment at you, more at whoever decided this should be top of his google search to discredit him
 

Irish Jet

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UBI is a scam.

Also when a guy starts talking about white birth rates and the “issue” of US becoming a minority majority country you kind of worry about the demographic he’s pandering too.
 

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Birth rates 2020



Its no wonder some alt right guys are in favour of him. A grand a month to buy all the video games you want.
 

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Birth rates 2020



Its no wonder some alt right guys are in favour of him. A grand a month to buy all the video games you want.
He’s a data guy. If you want to work out whether a country is meeting the needs of its citizens then the fact that more people are dying than being born is a piece of data worth considering, irrespective of the demographic it applies to. If half-wits infer that his agenda is white supremacy then that’s not his problem.
 

Sweet Square

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He’s a data guy. If you want to work out whether a country is meeting the needs of its citizens then the fact that more people are dying than being born is a piece of data worth considering, irrespective of the demographic it applies to. If half-wits infer that his agenda is white supremacy then that’s not his problem.
Well stay behind the computer screen because he's clearly doesn't understand the effects his language could have on politics.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Well stay behind the computer screen because he's clearly doesn't understand the effects his language could have on politics.
I actually think it makes a lot of sense to consider policies that benefit the poor/disenfranchised white underclass in the States. Racism will never disappear completely but trying to make life a bit better for everyone is surely the best way to stop racist ideologies from spreading. Pretending that POC are the only demographic struggling in modern American just ends up getting cnuts like Trump elected.
 

Arruda

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Whilst you can perhaps diminish the importance of "more people dying than being born" - happens in a lot of western europe, may reflect just people having fewer kids and can be overcome by increased immigration -, reduced life expectancy in any group (white, black, rich, poor) is huge food for thought.
 

Arruda

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:lol:

I kind of second niMic, though. No chance in hell that Yang can get enough name recognition to make a dent.
It's irrelevant though, he's interesting enough for people wanting to discuss him separately, as can be seen by the number of replies the thread got in 90 minutes, even if you discount the useless posts of people questioning whether there should be a thread.

You can create a thread about Joe Biden and his magnificent chances and no one gives a feck.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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Whilst you can perhaps diminish the importance of "more people dying than being born" - happens in a lot of western europe, may reflect just people having fewer kids and can be overcome by increased immigration -, reduced life expectancy in any group (white, black, rich, poor) is huge food for thought.
Yeah, a falling birth-rate is a common enough trend. It’s the fact it’s combined with an increase in mortality that’s unusual. On the plus side, I guess there’s an economic positive in that they’re potentially dodging the European headache of a relentlessly aging population.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Yeah, a falling birth-rate is a common enough trend. It’s the fact it’s combined with an increase in mortality that’s unusual. On the plus side, I guess there’s an economic positive in that they’re potentially dodging the European headache of a relentlessly aging population.
The lack of a robust welfare state makes ageing population less of a problem even if it happens in US plus even in the current climate the US is an extremely attractive place for skilled immigrants.
 

berbatrick

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I've been meaning to do a writeup on UBI, Yang, and now especially because the Indian opposition party has promised a substantial cash handout for 20% of the population.

In the western context:
Yang's UBI is explicitly about automation. His scenario sees machines and computers taking away jobs, leaving many people (eventually a majority) jobless. I think many UBI theories in the west are motivated by the same concern. (There are also older UBI proposals and negative income tax, from the likes of Milton Freidman).
The UBI he proposes is $1000/month. If you, as a welfare recepient, opt for this, it will be delivered instead of your welfare.
Quoting from his website:

Andrew proposes funding UBI by consolidating some welfare programs and implementing a Value-Added Tax (VAT) of 10%. Current welfare and social program beneficiaries would be given a choice between their current benefits or $1,000 cash unconditionally
...
We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of Universal Basic Income because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits.
People living in England know better than me what happens to disabled people when their welfare payments are lumped in with others (wasn't that a big part of the Conservative universal credit?)

Anyway, the important part is - 12k/year. It is not a lot in the US context. You can easily lose half of that in rent - and there's no guarantee rents won't rise taking the UBI into account.
Again, he is imagining a world with fewer and fewer jobs, especially full-time jobs. 12k is exactly the poverty line. Thus, he is imagining a world where vast numbers of people in developed countries will be on the poverty line.
This will be made worse for disabled people, and people with kids, who will no longer receive the extra cheques they get nowadays. I do not think it is a desirable outcome.

The post-work scenario which he is imagining is drastically different from today, and unlike any part of human history. I think imagining that automated, post-work future, requires us to look at sci-fi more than today's conditions. And there are 2 examples that stand out: 15 million merits in the 1st season of Black Mirror, and the brief glimpses of Earth in The Expanse.
15 million merits shows a society where your only value as labour is as an entertainer or performer. That is certainly plausible in his post-work universe. The Expanse shows the flip-side of post-work - glittering enclaves for the powerful and wealthy, shanty-towns and drugs for everyone else.
I think by setting the UBI where he has, Yang's plan will lead in the same dismal direction.

And this proposal isn't new, especially coming from a Silicon Valley guy like Yang. A few years back Mark Zuckerburg was thinking of a presidential run, and one of his big policy ideas was centred around the Alaska Permanent Fund, which gives every resident $1200/year taken from state oil revenues. And there have been a series of proposals in Canada and some European countries. Finland's "UBI" was focused on unemployed people and found that it didn't lead to significant changes in their occupation status - no shit, I don't know why they were looking for that. The Canadian ones, like Yang's also involved replacing welfare with a fairly modest UBI.

I think it makes sense that Silicon Valley supports UBI. They do need their population to be - alive, with minimal disposable income, preferably trained in coding at govt expense - for their profits to continue. What they don't care about is if this population - their customers - are happy, have any ways to develop themselves apart from coding, and have any power to affect things. The UBI provides what they need at minimal cost and hence minimum disruption to their future profits. And the way Yang wants to pay for it (VAT) is also very good for them (more on this later).

When thought through in the context of the future they're supposed to be designed for, Yang's proposals are dystopian.
...

In the Indian context, the opposition's proposal isn't really a UBI - it is based on income, and it provides 6k rupees/month, for the poorest 20% of families in the country (240 million people approx). This will work as a negative income tax - the govt will make up whatever shortfall these familes have below 144k/year, by giving a maximum of 6k/month. The party has also said other benefit schemes, like maternity benefits and scholarships, will be "rationalised".
I don't support this. There are massive issues determining income for most Indians, since large parts of the economy are informal. Getting into the coveted bottom 20% will become a very corrupt process. There have been small pilot experiments showing that replacing (extremely corrupt, filled with leakages) public food distribution with a monthly lump-sum hasn't been a success at all. There are *large* infrastructure issues still in India, and an existing program, called NREGA, which is supposed to provide guaranteed employment at the minimum wage to anyone willing to work and unable to find it. Increasing NREGA allotment and directing its funds to improve roads, afforestation, and building protections against drought should be where the govt spends its money.

...

Going back to the western context:
Is there a better way to prepare for automation? I think so. And it has partly to do with the taxation that I mentioned before.
Instead of VAT, the govt can levy a wealth tax on large estates, increase corporate income taxes, or (and this is just my idea) buy company stock as a form of corporate tax. After all, we expect companies to be profitable, especially the ones involved in automation. So the govt can hold private stock and get a return on it.
If the predictions about automation are true, the govt can use these revenues to fund a more generous welfare state to a. guarantee a decent standard of life (childcare, healthcare, housing, education, public transport) b. fund higher education more generously. People need the UBI cash to buy the basics - I think it's better if the govt focused on de-commodifying and providing those basics. And for the second point - if people have nothing to do, give them a chance to learn more.
 

berbatrick

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To add to everything above - I think the fact that Yang's become popular among the same guys who were doing Pepes 4 years ago is telling - NEETbux is their thing, You can look it up - they explicitly want the future dystopia of the Expanse, and they will be happy with it. I hope humanity can do better.
 

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Maybe it’s for the UBI thread but his rationale for the $1k/month is that it gives people a little breathing space to find creative ways to earn a living. And it’s not about each individual having a little more money it’s about everyone having more disposable income, all at the same time. There wouldn’t be a sudden switch where everyone ends up on UBI with no other income. What would happen would be a softer landing as the unemployed rate rises and a lot more money coming into poor communities that will hopefully help keep local businesses/employers afloat.

Besides, how is that vision of the future more dystopian than the exact same scenario playing out, minus UBI?
 

ivaldo

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:lol:

I kind of second niMic, though. No chance in hell that Yang can get enough name recognition to make a dent.
I'll be honest, after reading the title, upon opening I expected some new dance craze or something. I have no idea who Yang is.
 

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Yeah, a falling birth-rate is a common enough trend. It’s the fact it’s combined with an increase in mortality that’s unusual. On the plus side, I guess there’s an economic positive in that they’re potentially dodging the European headache of a relentlessly aging population.
The reduced age expectancy in an industrialized nation is more or less unprecedented outside of ex-Soviet Bloc nations after the Cold War. Certainly bears investigating...
 

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I actually think it makes a lot of sense to consider policies that benefit the poor/disenfranchised white underclass in the States. Racism will never disappear completely but trying to make life a bit better for everyone is surely the best way to stop racist ideologies from spreading. Pretending that POC are the only demographic struggling in modern American just ends up getting cnuts like Trump elected.
Talking about white birth rates is dangerous stupid rhetoric its as simply as that(Theres a growing far right that is obsessed with it). If politicians want to talk about the poor/disenfranchised white underclass there's already great way to do that - Class politics.

Also Yang policies won't help anyone. Just for example the United States does not have universal healthcare, free collage and needs affordable housing(All things Yang doesn't support). Give everyone a extra 12 grand and the insurance companies will jack up peoples health cost, collage will become more expensive and rent will sky rocket.

UBI without a radical change in society is useless for working class people.
Pretending that POC are the only demographic struggling in modern American just ends up getting cnuts like Trump elected.
What?

Trump won because of the lack of class politics. The Dems offered nothing to the working class(Of all races)so they didn't turn out to vote. It wasn't because they told white people they were too privilege.
 

VeevaVee

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This really doesn't need its own thread. He might be interesting, but he's also not going to get anywhere near the nomination. We already have a 2020 thread and a US politics thread, where there's already been discussion about Yang. Why not just continue that?

If we had threads on every 2020 candidate, the entire first page would be filled up.
I'm not getting interested in US politics until it's crunch time. It's only annoying otherwise. But I'm glad this guy was brought to my attention whether he'll make it or not.
 

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Whilst you can perhaps diminish the importance of "more people dying than being born" - happens in a lot of western europe, may reflect just people having fewer kids and can be overcome by increased immigration -, reduced life expectancy in any group (white, black, rich, poor) is huge food for thought.
That's not true. What Yang was tweeting was that the deaths outnumber the births. Birth rates have gone down in Western Europe and Japan but that's because people are living longer and having fewer kids and having the kids later in life, closer to 30 than 20. That's very different to what he's talking about where people are living shorter because suicides and overdoses are having a huge impact on life expectancy and birth rate.
 

Arruda

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That's not true. What Yang was tweeting was that the deaths outnumber the births. Birth rates have gone down in Western Europe and Japan but that's because people are living longer and having fewer kids and having the kids later in life, closer to 30 than 20. That's very different to what he's talking about where people are living shorter because suicides and overdoses are having a huge impact on life expectancy and birth rate.
Nothing of that contradicts any part of my post???
 

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Maybe it’s for the UBI thread but his rationale for the $1k/month is that it gives people a little breathing space to find creative ways to earn a living. And it’s not about each individual having a little more money it’s about everyone having more disposable income, all at the same time. There wouldn’t be a sudden switch where everyone ends up on UBI with no other income. What would happen would be a softer landing as the unemployed rate rises and a lot more money coming into poor communities that will hopefully help keep local businesses/employers afloat.

Besides, how is that vision of the future more dystopian than the exact same scenario playing out, minus UBI?
Another important part of his rationale for ubi is that rather than spend the money on one-size fits all retraining of people, it is better to empower them to unleash their entrepreneur spirit by alleviating their burden. I think that's a sound idea.
 

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I've not read enough into his ideas to see whether they're viable or not (some of the critiques in this thread alone seem reasonable) but he's interesting all the same and seems to at least be offering a fresh perspective on the debate from some of the more tired names like Harris, Booker etc.