Yanks shoot Italian journalist who was just released

Suedesi

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/

Obviously furore in Italy.

Berlusconi was in tears and declared in national TV that nothing goes right in that country, and it is pure madness.

Obviously Italians will make a movie about it and demand the govt step down... At which point Silvio will withdraw Italian troops from Iraq.
 

mathiaslg

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In that part of the city, if American troops ask you to stop (by waving, flashing lights), you should do so.
 

crappycraperson

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mathiaslg said:
In that part of the city, if American troops ask you to stop (by waving, flashing lights), you should do so.
And thats supposed to be an excuse..........
 

mathiaslg

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crappycraperson said:
And thats supposed to be an excuse..........
If you were an American soldier in that part of the city, I imagine you would do the same--it is certainly better than many of the alternatives.

Of course, none of us know exactly what happened.
 

Dumbstar

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If the driver/pedestrian failed to stop for whatever reason (fear, relief, shock) and I was an 18 year old in a war I half stopped believing in knowing someone could walk up to me and blow me up in a second....I'd probably shoot first too.

But like Math said, no one actually knows nor will ever know what really happened.
 

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In 6 languages, warning signs are posted 200 meters from an established checkpoint warning motorists to approach slowing to 20kph coming to a stop upon commnd. This car ignored those warnings, approaching at 90kpkh+. Two warning 50 cal. bursts were fired immediately in front of the car at 200 meters. The car did not slow at all! At 100 meters targeted shots were fired into the engine block and tires to disable the vehicle. The vehicle came to a stop within 50 meters of the checkpoint and emergency medical help was summoned. With an unidetified vehilce traveling at 100kph, a decision had to made within 2 seconds twice as it takes less than 6 seconds to travel 200 meters. Just 40 lbs. of plastiques could vaporize the checkpoint and kill many police and soldiers. I blame the driver... or perhaps the female reporter ordered the driver not to slow down and just run the stop. No one here knows, do you. But at least now you know the circumstances a little better. You don't know who or what is in that car, you didn't expect the car to be coming, you know you have only a few seconds to act... what would you do?

Hundreds of similar incidents over the last 3 years have taken the lives of hundreds of Americans and Iraqis, and both the Americans and Iraqis KNOW this. Is there ANY reason in hell or on earth that the driver of the vehicle did not IMMEDIATELY slam on the brakes after the first warning shots? Is a delay at a checkpoint so unthnkable that the car would knowingly SPEED toward the soldiers? This is what the news people DON'T tell you, even though they should.
 

kkcbl

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I agree with your sentiments Wells, if what you deduced happened, happened.


Is there ANY reason in hell or on earth that the driver of the vehicle did not IMMEDIATELY slam on the brakes after the first warning shots? Is a delay at a checkpoint so unthnkable that the car would knowingly SPEED toward the soldiers? This is what the news people DON'T tell you, even though they should.
Good question.

What do you think is the reason that despite all the warning signs, warning shots & previous bad experiences to go on, cars carying non-terrorists ( like in this instance ) still speed towards checkpoints?:confused:
 

Wellesley

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kkcbl said:
I agree with your sentiments Wells, if what you deduced happened, happened.

Good question.

What do you think is the reason that despite all the warning signs, warning shots & previous bad experiences to go on, cars carying non-terrorists ( like in this instance ) still speed towards checkpoints?:confused:
I haven't the foggiest. Perhaps, if some "I hate Americans" allow time for an investigation by both Italian and US investigators, it will yield some clues. Jumping to conclusions based on news reports is not always wise. The info I got was from an interview with the commander of the checkpoint. But the story was "breaking" so that is all the details I have to date.
 

kkcbl

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Wellesley said:
I haven't the foggiest. Perhaps, if some "I hate Americans" allow time for an investigation by both Italian and US investigators, it will yield some clues. Jumping to conclusions based on news reports is not always wise. The info I got was from an interview with the commander of the checkpoint. But the story was "breaking" so that is all the details I have to date.
Thanks for your usual honest reply.

BTW, I still feel that you've got to get over the 'anti-American' feeling you get whenever people criticise Bush.:)
 

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ROME (Reuters) - Freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena has described on Saturday how U.S. forces sprayed her car with bullets as it neared safety in Iraq, wounding her and killing the man who had secured her release moments earlier.

U.S. forces opened fire as the car carrying Sgrena neared Baghdad airport on Friday after she was released by the militants who had held her captive for more than a month.

Sgrena, a 57-year-old award-winning war reporter, returned to Rome on Saturday and looked in pain as she was helped off a government plane, clutching a plaid blanket and attached to a drip and was put into an ambulance.

"We thought the danger was over after my release to the Italians but all of a sudden there was this shoot-out, we were hit by a barrage of bullets," she told RAI TV by telephone.

Nicola Calipari, the senior secret service agent who had worked for her release, was telling her about what had been going on in Italy since her capture when the shooting started.

"He leaned over me, probably to protect me, and then he slumped down, and I saw he was dead," said Sgrena.

The U.S. military said its forces fired because the car was speeding towards their checkpoint.

But in comments reported by ANSA news agency, Sgrena told Rome investigating magistrates during a debriefing that the car was not going fast and there was no real checkpoint.

"The firing was not justified by the speed of our car," she reportedly said, adding it was travelling at a "regular" speed.

"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol which shot as soon as it had lit us up with a spotlight. We had no idea where the shots were coming from."

OPPOSITION

Doctors said Sgrena was in stable condition after suffering a gunshot wound to her left shoulder, fracturing a bone and causing bruising to a lung.

The incident could rekindle anti-war sentiment in Italy, where public opinion opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

It has caused the worst fall out in years between the United States and Italy, with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi taking the rare step of summoning the U.S. ambassador for an explanation.

In a telephone call, Bush promised Berlusconi a full investigation.

Berlusconi defied public opinion by sending 3,000 soldiers to Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 and has rejected past calls to withdraw the troops.

Italy's centre-left, which hopes to unseat Berlusconi next year in elections and to weaken his standing at local government polls next month, is campaigning on a platform of withdrawing.

DELIBERATE

While moderate opposition leaders were cautious in their criticism, hardline leftists said the shooting would galvanise anti-war opinion.

"I don't believe a word of the American version," said Oliviero Diliberto, head of the Italian Communist party, part of the main left-wing block led by former premier Romano Prodi.

"The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the centre-left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops."

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, who will address the lower house on the incident on Tuesday, said it would not harm ties with Washington.

"My position on the United States will not change one iota from what I have expressed a thousand times," Fini told leading daily newspaper Corriere della Sera. "This was a macabre twist of fate, a tragedy determined by destiny."

Sgrena's partner Pier Scolari, speaking outside the hospital where she is being treated, accused U.S. forces of, at best, recklessness and even suggested the troops had targeted Sgrena.

"I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorised kids who shoot at anyone," he said.

Two other secret service agents were also wounded in the shooting. One returned with Sgrena, the other, more seriously wounded, is being treated in Iraq.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Hmm...
 

kkcbl

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The U.S. military said its forces fired because the car was speeding towards their checkpoint.

But in comments reported by ANSA news agency, Sgrena told Rome investigating magistrates during a debriefing that the car was not going fast and there was no real checkpoint.

"The firing was not justified by the speed of our car," she reportedly said, adding it was travelling at a "regular" speed.

"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol which shot as soon as it had lit us up with a spotlight. We had no idea where the shots were coming from."

Oh Dear! Oh Dear!

Seems this lady's version conflicts with the official American Army's version.

Of course being sane & calm people, we can initially perhaps look at/conclude the following:

1.) Her background - is she anti-American or a commie or a Muslim lover?

2.) Her definition of 'normal speed' is different from others'.

3. ) She was quoted wrongly by a reporter with an agenda or was in shock when she intially uttered those claims.

4. ) It would not lead to anything & will blow over in days when another story brings bigger interest - it always does.

But on a more serious note, these sort of unfortunate incidents happen in a war situation & we'll always have detractors & supporters of war & especially this present conflict.

The bigger issue is not so much individual incidents altho' they add to the justification of pro/anti war exponents, but the morality of this present conflict.
 

mathiaslg

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I suggest we wait until the US military releases its findings.

The reporter might seriously enough believe that a patrol fired on their car, or that they were driving at a normal speed.

The commander Wellesley quoted might also believe otherwise--that the car was travelling to quickly towards a checkpoint.

I'd like more info before judging anyone.
 

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It's a load of gas...things like this are bound to happen due to lack of communication...so the blame lies with the people organising the rescue and the Americans(assuming they were aware of the situation). If the signs were posted and what Wellesley says is to be believed, then I don't suppose the Italians have much to complain about.
 

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kkcbl said:
Oh Dear! Oh Dear!

Seems this lady's version conflicts with the official American Army's version.

Of course being sane & calm people, we can initially perhaps look at/conclude the following:

1.) Her background - is she anti-American or a commie or a Muslim lover?
All I know she is a leftist journalist.
 

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The source of this incidental account was Reuters, an international news agency which, since the Gulf War of 1991 began, has been adamantly and partisanly against the American actions in the extreme for more than 13 years. One would be hard pressed to credibly and openly state that Reuters had been fair in representing the American Coalition Forces positions and statemet of facts. The Reuters' reporter, in the story quoted, purports to have interviewed the admitttedly anti-American reporter, and later with the head of the Italian Communist Party (a man who was not there). Correct me if I'm wrong, but journalism, as opposed to political propaganda which gets in the way of facts, to get perspective. I see perspective as a term which describes a process of looking at, openly and honestly, at all sides of whatever issue is being presented. Now if the news story described the persepective as "the perspective of an Italian, anti-American reporter and the head of the Italian communist party..." I would have no problem with it, because it clearly represents a one-sided perspective. There was no mention of Reuters' reporter having gone to the American information authorities which had verbatim and TIMELY accounts of the incident from the perspective of those charged with security in Iraq. The reason there was not mention of such an action is that Reuters did NOT seek both sides of the story. The information I read is "out there" and the US information officer was there, should Reuters be seeking balance and true perspective... a responsible way to report news as opposed to a way to inflame anti-American rage by giving false and contrary information for the reader to judge. It's sort of like holding a trial and barring the defense from presenting their side of the story.

MOST IMPORTANTLY... this incident took place in less than 10 seconds, and in the dark until the vehicle reached the saftey zone and ignored the signs and the warning shots (witnessed by SEVERAL who were there and never interviewed by Reuters, or perhpas interviewed BUT omitted because that side of story differed from the intent of the article). American soldiers do NOT "spray" a target with indiscriminant fire. I am a veteran and one who knows. Concentrated fire by a well-trained mission-oriented American force is very well directed and dictated by objective. The Italian communists have already stated openly that they oppose the American-led coalition and EVERY WORD from their mouth is derrogatory and biased beyond belief. Reuters is a communitst mouthpiece, not a responsible news organization interested in getting a story correct by looking at all sides. I believe the REAL truth of the matter lies somewhere in between. What happened was an unfortunate incident, but understandable if you know ALL the facts involved. If not one single person was interviewed from the "other side (Americans)", how in the hell can you even imagine the story to be true? Why did they purposely omit even the smallest of comments from those who did the shooting? Bunk!
 

Sultan

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I am not an American hater "honest"...

You have to admit that there have been so many incidents of the army shooting innocents by mistake, unfortunately this is more high profile than the usual Afghans or Iraqis.

It would be quite refreshing to admit human error, which is understandble in a war zone rather than beating around the bush.
 

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Latest wire from AFP

ROME - The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged.

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added.

When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold.

Sgrena told RaiNews24 television Saturday a "hail of bullets" rained down on the car taking her to safety at Baghdad airport, along with three secret service agents, killing one of them.

"I was speaking to (agent) Nicola Calipari (...) when he leant on me, probably to protect me, and then collapsed and I realized he was dead," said Sgrena, who was being questioned on Saturday by two Italian magistrates.

"They continued shooting and the driver couldn't even explain that we were Italians. It was really horrible," she added.

Sgrena, who was hospitalized with serious wounds to her left shoulder and lung after arriving back in Rome Saturday before noon, said she was "exhausted because of what happened above all in the last 24 hours".

"After all the risks I have been running I can say that I'm fine," she said.

"I thought that after I was handed over to the Italians danger was over, but then this shooting broke out and we were hit by a hail of bullets."

The chief editor of Sgrena's left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto Gabriele Polo meanwhile branded Calipari's death a "murder".

"He was hit in the head," he said.

Calipari will be given a state funeral Monday.


03/05/2005 13:43 GMT
 

holyland red

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kkcbl said:
2.) Her definition of 'normal speed' is different from others'.

.
One has to visit Italy in order to appreciate what 'normal driving' is in Italian standards.
 

Wellesley

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redsultan...

The story you posted from the "AFP Wire" is more of the same. It implies, very clearly, that the incident was an official US attempt to assassinate the Italian reporter and security guards. Again, not even one American or coalition soldier or official was interviewed or asked for comment. If the US Army wanted this woman dead, and they KNEW that her car was "racing toward the airport", they would have taken the vehicle out completely with a missile, or at the least inspected the car and systematically killed all the occupants. It is just more anti-American bullshit. Further, I DID admit that the incident was unfortunate. I also know that a war zone is NOT a diplomatic meeting place where words are exchanged. Neither story has anything to say about having interviewed or trying to interview any of the Americans involved. Perhaps you are not anti-American as you say. But if you aren't, why not one concilliatory word from you, either about the incident or either of the two biased stories? Is it because the stories say what you WANT and HOPE to be true... that Americans are a bunch of murderous thugs and conspirators willing to use murder simply to make their cause falslely appear a just and successful cause? I will look about for a more balanced story on the matter and make up my mind. If YOU are interested in the truth instead of impugning America, perhaps you will too.
 

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Excerpt from "Scotland on Sunday"...

"...Piero Fassino, head of the largest opposition party, the Democrats of the Left, said: "The idea of someone being killed by those who say they are in Iraq to protect its citizens is absurd."

Sgrena was seized by insurgents in Baghdad on February 4 and was seen on videotape begging for her life, sobbing as she pleaded for the Italians to leave.

The US military said the soldiers tried to warn occupants of the vehicle - flashing lights and firing warning shots - as it sped towards the checkpoint, (your story said ALL checkpoints had been passed) then fired into its engine block (your story said "...it was murder! He was shot in the head...) when it did not stop.". Is Scotland on Sunday" an American propaganda organization?
 

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Chill Wellesley, as you said the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Until we get independent witnesses which is difficult in Iraq as everybody has a price.

Just regard it as another casualty of war...condolences to the family.
 

AhmedDimwitson

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A major mistake by all accounts. These soldiers are however in a situation where suicide bombers drive towards them in cars packed with explosives, so there is only one way they can react in such a situation.

What is interesting is why there was no communication between the Italians and Americans, there should have been, the americans should have known this car was coming and taking this specific route. If they were indeed informed, there are no excuses for them shooting this car and the guilty ones should be put on trial, for murder and for being fecking incompetent.
 

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Checkpoints are no joke. Signs and speedlimits are clearly posted and you follow them. Soldiers generally don't randomly fire at vehicles for shits and giggles. There had to be a reason, and in this case, the reason looks to have been a speeding vehicle that didn't stop. That's perfectly justifiied imo. The only alternative would've been to allow the vehicle to get too close and have it detonate with explosives, as has happened in the past.
 

Sultan

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Raoul said:
Checkpoints are no joke. Signs and speedlimits are clearly posted and you follow them. Soldiers generally don't randomly fire at vehicles for shits and giggles. There had to be a reason, and in this case, the reason looks to have been a speeding vehicle that didn't stop. That's perfectly justifiied imo. The only alternative would've been to allow the vehicle to get too close and have it detonate with explosives, as has happened in the past.
Can you be certain without any kind of evidence,? lots of conflicting stories doing the rounds Raoul.

Lets wait and see, The apologies have been coming from the State way.
 

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redsultan said:
Can you be certain without any kind of evidence,? lots of conflicting stories doing the rounds Raoul.

Lets wait and see, The apologies have been coming from the State way.
I dealt with checkpoints in Afghanistan. They're simple open and shut situations and the troops that man them have very strict rules of engagement. One thing that will definitely get you fired on is speeding up to checkpoint at night and not heeding warning shots. If that's the case, then the driver is to blame.
 

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Behave like an idiot in a war zone and the results can be fatal. In fact simply being in a war zone can seriously damage your health.

To suggest that it was a deliberate attempt by the US to kill an Italian journalist seem to be without any foundation in fact. It also seem a bit mad to start from this viewpoint and try to disprove it as some seem to be doing. The equivalent of the "when did you stop beating your wife" question.
 

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I'm very glad that here on the board, most everyone is waiting to see what comes out here, and neither immediately blaming the Americans nor immediately disregarding the idea that there was some form of blame to be laid at the feet of the Americans (like bad communication, or whatever).

Because huge chunks of the US media are going ape shit, essentially saying "the heroic freed hostage says it was an assasination attempt, a claim which evil, redneck, stupid Texan illigitimate president Mr. Bush denies." It's insanity. Any excuse to skewer the President and the military, I guess. :wenger:
 

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AhmedDimwitson said:
What is interesting is why there was no communication between the Italians and Americans, there should have been, the americans should have known this car was coming and taking this specific route. If they were indeed informed, there are no excuses for them shooting this car and the guilty ones should be put on trial, for murder and for being fecking incompetent.
A question of balance, Ahmed... let's turn it around and try it like this:

What is interesting is why there was no communication between the Italians and Americans, there should have been, the Italian intelligence operators should have informed American intelligence to tell them the car was coming and via this specific route, passing these checkpoints and carrying this number of people. If they [the Italian operatives] actually did not notify appropriate American authorities, could it be their fault that the Americans at the checkpoint protecting Bagdhad Airport (a US base) shot up this suspect car which did not heed orders to stop and one brave man killed? If they didn't, the guilty Italians should be put on trial for murder and for being fecking incompetent.

Do you know the facts? Why the American angle? And did you know the car was full of Italian Communists who have often expressed outright hatred and disrespect for Americans? Can you honestly tell me that you believe the car was moving slowly, that warning shots were not fired, that bright lights were not flashed, that American guards did not stand waving frantically for them to stop without knowing for sure? Reports say so. Do you believe reports coming from American military guards before you would believe two Italian Communist operatives who hate America?

Just wondering if you're anti-American, honestly.
 

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Wellesley said:
Do you know the facts? Why the American angle? And did you know the car was full of Italian Communists who have often expressed outright hatred and disrespect for Americans? Can you honestly tell me that you believe the car was moving slowly, that warning shots were not fired, that bright lights were not flashed, that American guards did not stand waving frantically for them to stop without knowing for sure? Reports say so. Do you believe reports coming from American military guards before you would believe two Italian Communist operatives who hate America?

Just wondering if you're anti-American, honestly.
Relax Wellesley.

I don't think anyone knows what happened.
 

AhmedDimwitson

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Wellesley said:
A question of balance, Ahmed... let's turn it around and try it like this:

What is interesting is why there was no communication between the Italians and Americans, there should have been, the Italian intelligence operators should have informed American intelligence to tell them the car was coming and via this specific route, passing these checkpoints and carrying this number of people. If they [the Italian operatives] actually did not notify appropriate American authorities, could it be their fault that the Americans at the checkpoint protecting Bagdhad Airport (a US base) shot up this suspect car which did not heed orders to stop and one brave man killed? If they didn't, the guilty Italians should be put on trial for murder and for being fecking incompetent.

Do you know the facts? Why the American angle? And did you know the car was full of Italian Communists who have often expressed outright hatred and disrespect for Americans? Can you honestly tell me that you believe the car was moving slowly, that warning shots were not fired, that bright lights were not flashed, that American guards did not stand waving frantically for them to stop without knowing for sure? Reports say so. Do you believe reports coming from American military guards before you would believe two Italian Communist operatives who hate America?

Just wondering if you're anti-American, honestly.
Fair point, it has to be the Italians who had to inform, as the americans could not have known this was taking place othervise. If they did not, they have only themselfs to blame obviously.

Generally speaking, in Italy the people are either communists or facists, the concept of being in the middle doesn't exist (so it seems anyways) :) so the car might have been full of commies or not, the journalist was a commie that is for sure. That however is irrelevant and she is not likely to have anything good to say of the people that shot the person who got her free anyways, it is fair to say her comments in the press will be influenced / biased so one should not pay attention to her comments.

But can you blame the Italians for being pissed off? they once manage to pull off something successful (which they rarely do) and even then the mission goes to hell.

As nobody really knows what happened it is difficult to say. One would think that they had to inform the americans of the mission as it took place in the americans backyard. One can also assume that there was a reason they were speeding and thus stopping the car, flashing with the lights, getting out of the car waving a white flag (or whatever the policy at these checkpoints are) etc might not be the brightest of ideas if hunted by Iraqi terrorists who can shoot them from a distance if they stop.

As for me being anti-american, this is case sensitive, at times I agree with the actions of this country, at times I don't. There is no general rule here, redsultan thinks I am anti-muslim, you think I am anti-american etc.

One can say that I am neutral and merely point out the facts. Therefore my comments should be given extra attention Wellesley, because I am more often right than not. ;)
 

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Wellesley said:
The Reuters' reporter, in the story quoted, purports to have interviewed the admitttedly anti-American reporter, and later with the head of the Italian Communist Party (a man who was not there). Correct me if I'm wrong, but journalism, as opposed to political propaganda which gets in the way of facts, to get perspective. I see perspective as a term which describes a process of looking at, openly and honestly, at all sides of whatever issue is being presented.
Bollocks. Reporting is about breaking stories. US troops shooting allied hostages, for whatever reason, in an election year is a gold-plated story, no doubt about it. Opposition party leaders making political capital out of the event, is a nasty but not unexpected part of the story too.

To correct you on one point: the reporter does not purport to have interviewed the victim. The Reuters reporter attributes the quotes to an interview with RAI, a TV station.

Wellesley said:
Now if the news story described the persepective as "the perspective of an Italian, anti-American reporter and the head of the Italian communist party..." I would have no problem with it, because it clearly represents a one-sided perspective. There was no mention of Reuters' reporter having gone to the American information authorities which had verbatim and TIMELY accounts of the incident from the perspective of those charged with security in Iraq. The reason there was not mention of such an action is that Reuters did NOT seek both sides of the story.
But it says very clearly in the article, "The U.S. military said its forces fired because the car was speeding towards their checkpoint." What are you on about?

Wellesley said:
American soldiers do NOT "spray" a target with indiscriminant fire. I am a veteran and one who knows. Concentrated fire by a well-trained mission-oriented American force is very well directed and dictated by objective.
How do you know these troops were well-trained? Perhaps they were reservists - there's a lot of them in Iraq so perhaps they over-reacted. In fact, you do not know the status, mental state, level of experience or anything else about the troops doing the firing. You are making assumptions of your own.

Wellesley said:
The Italian communists have already stated openly that they oppose the American-led coalition and EVERY WORD from their mouth is derrogatory and biased beyond belief. Reuters is a communitst mouthpiece, not a responsible news organization interested in getting a story correct by looking at all sides. I believe the REAL truth of the matter lies somewhere in between.
I suspect it's an accident that a seriously traumatised ex-hostage is freaking out over in the middle of an Italian election year. I don't think Reuters is the issue here - really.
 

Wellesley

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mathiaslg said:
Relax Wellesley.

I don't think anyone knows what happened.
mathiaslg, you are 100% correcet. Which is precisely why I present the same story from two points of view, the same compasssion and disappointment on BOTH sides. Seeing this taken advantage of politcally is abhorent and inexcusable.

Perhaps the body guard/confidante hired a car and driver who is al Queda or Baathist... all right, it's possible..., and he purposesly sped into the checkpoint knowing he was to be a martyr for Allah's victory.

Ahmed has been straight with me, so just seeking his point of view... that's all.
 

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jasonrh said:
Because huge chunks of the US media are going ape shit, essentially saying "the heroic freed hostage says it was an assasination attempt, a claim which evil, redneck, stupid Texan illigitimate president Mr. Bush denies." It's insanity. Any excuse to skewer the President and the military, I guess. :wenger:
I doubt it. It's a sensational story and the media loves sensational stories. It's got a hostage, Iraq, politics, gunfire, the army, a heroic secret agent and a woman. Where did you get this idea the media was only about truth? It's about fcuking ratings too. Of course the media are going apeshit!
 

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nickm said:
I doubt it. It's a sensational story and the media loves sensational stories. It's got a hostage, Iraq, politics, gunfire, the army, a heroic secret agent and a woman. Where did you get this idea the media was only about truth? It's about fcuking ratings too. Of course the media are going apeshit!
Man of mine own heart. But let's use two agnles instead of one, be "diversified"... in the end, it's what SELLS.