Okay apologies but ignoring Messi they still brought through Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets who made up one of the best midfields in history. Is that not something we should be striving towards however difficult?
Youth development is NOT relevant for us!
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See that is a proper academy product, not guys joing a club at age 10, 11, 12 or 13.
What a driveling snot pile of a thread
Top clubs don't need academies as they buy all their players, ( I really hope no one mentions the six first team academy products at barca, or any of the Bayern ones!)
Ok, damn it, they noticed that, well at least I can mention messi isn't an academy player. (Oh no, they noticed that is wrong as well, I'm really struggling here!)
I know, ill change what I'm actually trying to say and hope no one notices, oh dear god they noticed that as well! It's like trying to steal poirots moustache!
Damn it I'll come clean, someone said something about Saint Jose and I don't like it.
Yes. And we did produce Beckham, Giggs and Scholes.
Do you expect this to happen again any time soon? Like the next 10 years or so?
Do you realize how good Messi actually is? He might not see another like him in football in our lifetimes ffs.We could produce another Beckham. Why not?
Besides, if we produce 5 Fletcher's instead, I'm happy. He was a very good footballer.
It's simple you judge an academy at the number of players they develop to professional level or if you want to be tough at the number of players that plays at the top level, typically CL, you don't judge an academy at the level of each individuals because it depends solely on each individuals.
Let me get my crystal ball.
There is a sentimental value attached to developing youth and seeing them break into the first team and, occasionally, become stars. It's part of the fabric and tradition of Man Utd. Sentiment aside, it's also an investment and one of the sources of revenue for the club. I don't know how lucrative it is, as I have no idea personally how much it costs to run, how much were getting for the players we sell, or how much money it saves us in terms of the players we promote. It's safe to assume, however, that we are not running it at a loss.
The OP does have a point though. The academy is unreliable. Players, like Pogba, may choose to leave, or like Januzaj, talented players may struggle with the transition, or like Ravel fail to develop properly. There is too much competition for talent among rival academies, restrictions on how to develop them, and even if these were overcome, the end product is far from guaranteed.
Todays elite teams have a starting line up that has a couple of players who are the world's class in their position, with the rest being among the worlds top 100. Almost all of them are signings, rather than academy products.
If the academy can produce squad players and a little extra revenue it's done it's job.
The OP does have a point though. The academy is unreliable. Players, like Pogba, may choose to leave, or like Januzaj, talented players may struggle with the transition, or like Ravel fail to develop properly. There is too much competition for talent among rival academies, restrictions on how to develop them, and even if these were overcome, the end product is far from guaranteed.
Todays elite teams have a starting line up that has a couple of players who are the world's class in their position, with the rest being among the worlds top 100. Almost all of them are signings, rather than academy products.
If the academy can produce squad players and a little extra revenue it's done it's job.
Five Fletchers? And do you think that this will become the basis for us to win a championship?
I don't see why not. The club will be around for a long time and should not be run based upon the whims of impatient fans like yourself. I would not want to see them give up just because you can't wait a few years. It hardly means we won't buy players when necessary so I don't see the issue.
You don't need a crystal ball. You just need a sense of probabilities. How much money are you willing to bet that in the next 10 years our academies will produce a championship winning team?
Of course. In 100 years anything is possible.
On the other hand, I would prefer to get Mourinho NOW and have a shoot at this year's championship.
We ought be investing into local/youth talent like Man City. They've got an amazing set up, have you seen Eastlands/Beswick /East Manchester?
So it's your argument to say that it's not relevant?
Last year United had a benefit of around 20m, one year of academy football costs 5m, one Rojo costs 20m.
Why not? He's better than a number of City players. Fernando, Fernandinho, Mangala, Demichellis, Kolarov - what incredible footballers!
Probably never, seeing as he's the greatest player to ever live. But we can produce the equivalent of a Muller, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Hummers, Kroos, Alaba, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Neville, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pedro, Pique etc.
To turn your question on its head, when was the last time we bought the best player in the world?
That's the thing, they cost a lot more than academy players.
And fail to adapt to the English game sometimes. It's easier when you've played in England since you were 8.
Some people really think we have unlimited budget though.The last 2 transfer windows have stick to their heads.
People keep harping on about our youth products failing since the class of 92, and since Fletcher has been spoken about already, but have we forgotten some of Wes Brown's performances for us? He had issues with staying fit but he could be absolutely magnificent defensively.
The romanticism is great. The arguments are good in theory. But the proof is in the pudding. The united academy has not supported the first team squad in any meaningful way for 15 years. You could say this was an organisational issue or that it was down to the fact that its just very unlikely that you can build super teams from your academy. Yes, its been done, and we gave two good examples from the recent past..but.the trend seems to be that its getting harder and harder as the top clubs monopolise the very vest global talent
Some threads are amazing. Champions League rules say hello.
And Evans gets spoken about like he's trash but he was a brilliant young defender when he was 21. Everyone here felt he would be our rock in defence for the next decade, and they were happy to let Pique leave to give him prominence. He didn't push on from than terrific start, but it's pretty great to have one of the most promising young defenders just pop up into your squad from the academy. Had he fulfilled the early potential, he wouldn't have left either none. None of those "wait till Madrid come calling in 2 years time" posts.
Whiteside, Hughes, Mcilroy, Albiston, Greenhoff and Jimmy Nicholl from the United team I grew up with. Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Butt, the Nevilles, Gillespie, Savage, Fletcher, O Shea, Brown, Evans, Cleverley, Bardsley, Pilkington and even the likes of Pique, Rossi and Pogba who were signed for academy development rather than direct to first team in the last 20 years or so. My father also saw the likes of Best, Charlton, Edwards, Foulkes, Stiles, Viollet, Pegg, Giles, Blanchflower come through.
That's one every two or three of years of our lives on average that have either made it or who at least looked like they might for a while and made watching the team more interesting for it. Who's to say yet what will come from Januzaj, Wilson, Pereira, Fosu-Mensah, Gribbin, Rashford etc. Look at our consistent records over the years in the FA Youth Cup, Manchester Seniors, Lancashire Seniors, junior leagues etc and consider the fact that until O'Shea only started on the Bench in 2011 we had featured at least one academy graduate in every single starting team for over 73 years and unless I am very much mistaken still have a 75 year plus record of having at least one on every team sheet.
Throw away the academy and appoint the likes of Mourinho as manager, what log did fans like you crawl from under?
That's the crux of the problem, they don't think about the financial implications. For example people keep mentioning the TV revenues but they seem to ignore that someone is going to produce the homegrown players and that someone won't need the money because of the TV rights and will need even less money when the big clubs who snubbed their academies will come and buy team fillers for fortunes.
The best way to make our financial supremacy irrelevant is by spending it on average english players for a lot of money because we decided to ignore youth development.
Can understand where you're coming from, youth development isn't reliable, particuarly in the modern football climate with a win now at all costs mentality. Certiainly when up against the realisation you could go out and buy pre-made continental stars.
Still... we wouldn't be Man Utd without it, as much as I personally cringe at the notion of enforcing some "United Way", we've always been a club who develops its youth, or at least tries, without it, it would feel you're supporting just a soulless shell of the club you've grown to love.
Still... we wouldn't be Man Utd without it, as much as I personally cringe at the notion of enforcing some "United Way", we've always been a club who develops its youth, or at least tries, without it, it would feel you're supporting just a soulless shell of the club you've grown to love.
Haven't bothered reading all the replies in the thread, as is expect a few have mentioned it already. Youth development is a must due to homegrown rule restrictions. English/youth players trained and educated in England are at a premium. If you want to register the max quota of 25 players over 21 in the league (and similar for CL) and without having to do a City and buy average players like Delph, Scott Sinclair, Adam Jonhson etc then you have to work at youth development also. Not to mention the fact your national team relies on these academies as well, for all underage levels.
All about a balance. Buy what you lack, but have a steady stream of lads coming through that build the core squad. And we obviously don't have loads and loads of money. Basically enough to do a Real and sign 1 "worldie" per summer window, instead of selling 12 and bringing in 4 lads to balance the books but leave us with a wafer thin squad
All about a balance. Buy what you lack, but have a steady stream of lads coming through that build the core squad. And we obviously don't have loads and loads of money. Basically enough to do a Real and sign 1 "worldie" per summer window, instead of selling 12 and bringing in 4 lads to balance the books but leave us with a wafer thin squad
Don't be obsessed with your past but never forget it.
It is important because it's probably the biggest part of our identity as a club, more so than ideas of 'attacking football.'
If we abandon that, we abandon our very founding principles, and we stand for nothing.
If we abandon that, we abandon our very founding principles, and we stand for nothing.
Bayern Munich destroyed probably the best team the world has ever seen with a team based on youth, which ironically was a team made up largely of youth products. You don't have to 'build a team' of youngsters you've produced anyway, nobody is saying that, but you can compliment purchased players with those from your own system. The OP suggests getting rid of our academy complete which is outrageous. What we need to do is actually invest in it which we haven't done in 20 years, there's a reason the like of Chelsea and City are investing so heavily in theirs.
What a silly thread:
Barca's ex-youth players have been mentioned, you can also add Thiago to that list.
Atletico: O. Torres, Koke, Gabi, de Gea
Bilbao: Munian, J. Martinez, Laporte, Herrera
even Real, who aren't exactly stacking their squad with youngsters, are probably at least making a good profit off their youth work, with constant player sales.
Bayern: Lahm, Badstuber, Müller, Schweinsteiger, Hummels, (Kroos), (Alaba)
Dortmund: Götze, Sahin, Schmelzer, (Reus)
Schalke: Özil, Neuer, Draxler, Mayer, Sane, Höwedes, Fährmann
Christ, there are even some mitable clubs who produced a couple of players that would be interesting for United:
Stuttgart: Kimmich, Khedira, Rüdiger, Gomez
and with 60 there is even a club in the depths of 2. Bundesliga who produced a couple of interesting players over the past years: Bender, Bender, Weigl, Volland
But yeah.. youth development is totally random and for losers!!
Barca's ex-youth players have been mentioned, you can also add Thiago to that list.
Atletico: O. Torres, Koke, Gabi, de Gea
Bilbao: Munian, J. Martinez, Laporte, Herrera
even Real, who aren't exactly stacking their squad with youngsters, are probably at least making a good profit off their youth work, with constant player sales.
Bayern: Lahm, Badstuber, Müller, Schweinsteiger, Hummels, (Kroos), (Alaba)
Dortmund: Götze, Sahin, Schmelzer, (Reus)
Schalke: Özil, Neuer, Draxler, Mayer, Sane, Höwedes, Fährmann
Christ, there are even some mitable clubs who produced a couple of players that would be interesting for United:
Stuttgart: Kimmich, Khedira, Rüdiger, Gomez
and with 60 there is even a club in the depths of 2. Bundesliga who produced a couple of interesting players over the past years: Bender, Bender, Weigl, Volland
But yeah.. youth development is totally random and for losers!!
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Even fewer people understand what's happening with football money right now and in the near future. This OP is a reaction to 10 year old news. It's changing again. The money a club has is extremely important to clubs like Ajax, but it gets less important towards the top end, in football the law of diminishing marginal utility applies to money itself, as having wins, trophy's and points is the ultimate goal, not acquiring money itself.
United might be the richest club in the world, the fact is United had to sell to Madrid, and can't buy from Madrid unless they want to get rid of a player. A good team gets more expensive, but also it becomes less for sale, it's not for anyone to just buy. Players have other financial interests besides their salary, and they make so much money paying a million a year more won't tempt them. With having so much money, non financial interests get more important too. Life is good in Munich and Barcelona, United can't buy Muller. Clubs who are institutions more than businesses are on the rise, like Barca and every German club, all the money gives players the freedom to choose to try and be part of something great, rather than ending up with 100 million career earnings from wages instead of 80 million.
The TV money only makes it harder to buy players from other PL clubs. In the past a club like Leicester would sell Vardy and Mahrez and use the money to grow, now they will hang on to them, because they can win the title, and they would also be a step up for the club money can't buy. Selling becomes a matter of free choice again. You can't buy the best players from Barca, Bayern and Real, and for buying the best players from midtable clubs is something that can be done, but you have to wait for the right moment.
Financial fair play is frustrated by money interests, but it is coming. The dynamic is in that direction, the money has to come from genuine football sources. Support and popularity is a genuine source, but this source is more dynamic volatile than ever. Children and their club preferences are more globalized than ever too. There's no guarantee United still is the richest club in 10 years.
All this would make it very risky to depend on money only. But in general to be the best, you have to use everything you can to gain an edge over your rivals. There are hundreds of thousands kids in the region who play football, there will be talent among them, you've got to make sure you have the first pick, because that gives you an edge. Having three players from different ages in the starting line up, not the stars, just hard working useful players, gives you a lot of edge. Not because you can't afford the money to buy players like that, but because you can't afford the time to find them and get them. A youth academy will raise the bar for other players, it allows for a smaller and happier squad, it will help to establish an own football style, and it will help to keep the club connected to it's most important fan base. In such a competitive environment a possibility to gain an advantage is a necessity.
Yes let's turn our backs on the winning formula that heralded our greatest period of success in our history.
What a car crash of a thread.
What a car crash of a thread.
This forum never fails to surprise me... ffs.
Forget the midlevel clubs on that list as your youth players do not need to be top level to get into the starting level and it is still easier to get into that squads.
Else - it is the aim for the top clubs to produce own young ones they get at a very young age - that will be world class and get into the squad - and even more to have them playing for years, retiring and maybe even taking a job at the club later - but it is more like a lottery win to really get this.
Even if you look at some of this above mentioned that ended their career at the club or will - like Lahm - it seldom goes smootly and it is not like they would start in the club. Lahm was 10/11 when he started into Bayern youth. He was always too small and hung back into his development to the guys of the same age - but they let him go through. He could not get directly into the Bayern squad. He first did not only go the usual one year in the U23 but two. And then he was loaned to Stuttgart for 2 years (Sagnol and Lizarazu played on Bayern's wings then) until he came back again.
That statement was bullshit.
Fletcher, O'Shea and Brown were very good players. At their best, they were good enough to start, while when they weren't at their best, they were still useful. Of course, that came with the cost of SAF giving Fletcher a few years while he was absolute dross.
I would put Welbeck, Evans a level below them, while Cleverley a level below Welbeck. So, 5-6 players produced from the academy which contributed for United since the class of '92 (Da Silvas, Januzaj and Pereira aren't exactly from the academy) with neither of them being a world class player (or near it).
It is really a shocking record! We should either improve on it, or really do like Chelsea and not care at all. We have given a lot of appearances to young players, but they have been poor. I would certainly prefer if we invest on it, because if we continue like this (5-6 okay/good players in 20 years) there is no point on that.
Januzaj and Pereira are from the academy they both joined the academy at 16 years old.