Just flicking through this thread but it's nice to see irony alive and well on the site in using a post to critique the failure of a minority to understand the subtleties of racism and the variety of forms it can take by implying that a whole nation is incapable of diversity of thought, especially when considering that nation (like France) has huge racial diversity, many of whom consider themselves English.
Zidane sack watch - 19/20
- Thread starter JoaquinJoaquin
- Start date
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Nah you’ll go through. On paper a 2-0 home win isn’t a huge ask really, but we have no pace at the back to deal with your counters and there’s no anfield crowd factor either. I’m hoping we get to play you again next year with a fully fit squad but knowing our luck in this fixture maybe I should be hoping to avoid it
It’ll be even bigger than Barca in terms of an achievement for me, we have no business going through to a semi with a shot squad and Kabak and Phillips as our centre halves.
We just lost lucas for the season, valverde got another knock, which means odriozola will have to play. And then there's the fallout from playing a clasico in biblical weather conditions, with players freezing their tits off by the endNah you’ll go through. On paper a 2-0 home win isn’t a huge ask really, but we have no pace at the back to deal with your counters and there’s no anfield crowd factor either. I’m hoping we get to play you again next year with a fully fit squad but knowing our luck in this fixture maybe I should be hoping to avoid it
It’ll be even bigger than Barca in terms of an achievement for me, we have no business going through to a semi with a shot squad and Kabak and Phillips as our centre halves.
I'll be suprised of we suffer no more injuries between now and mid-week, or if we look anything more than zombies on the pitch
Agreed, Zidane addressed this already post-conference, the team is on its last legs. I think in the CL format, they can strive, but I don't think La Liga is a really realistic option short of Atletico completely imploding. I have a hard time seeing Madrid win all of their remaining games in La Liga and I fear more injuries are to come.
None of that takes away the coaching masterclass Zizou put on Barcelona. It's good to see him finally recognized on his own merits as a coach rather than The Lucky One.
It's going to be a struggle but it seems that's how this teams works better. When having everyone fit is when we bottle it up against the weaker sides we're supposed to win comfortably. So at least the team isn't going to be as overcomplacent as usual.
Out of 11 relatively tough games (against Atleti, Barca, Sevilla, Inter, Atalanta... and Pool) he has won 10, drawing the other one, and losing none.
Add this to his legendary back to back to back CLs with so many away KO wins, there's probably never been a better manager for "big" matches. You simply feel "safe".
Add this to his legendary back to back to back CLs with so many away KO wins, there's probably never been a better manager for "big" matches. You simply feel "safe".
I hope he does this one more time against Liverpool, just to shut Klopp up. His (Klopp’s) comments about the stadium were a disgrace.
That's astonishing to be honest. And with one of the most uninspiring Real teams in years.
Zidane confounds me. I keep thinking he's been found out and he keeps proving me wrong. I still think he would struggle at another club, but for some reason he's just the perfect fit at Real.
I think he'll suceed as long as he has a talented squad. There's been rumour of him moving to Juventus at one point, and I think he'd be a very good fit there. Wealthy club, great tradition, good front office/scouting set up and able to attract top tier talent from around the world. A very demanding high pressure job to be sure, but not hysterical pressure like the one you have at Madrid and Barsa.
He'd also be a good manager for France in my estimation.
He always delivers. No matter the state of the team on the pitch, off the pitch, or missing key figures, Zidane always delivers. The statistics are ridiculous for him - he's had 4 seasons (3 full seasons and 2 half seasons), and he's delivered 3 CLs and 2 La Liga titles.
This is his 5th season, if we wins another La Liga title, and the possibility of another CL, he'll go down as one of the best managers of all time (if not already).
This is his 5th season, if we wins another La Liga title, and the possibility of another CL, he'll go down as one of the best managers of all time (if not already).
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If he wins a 4th CL in 5 attempts, an argument can be made he's already the best manager of all time.
He was always an incredible manager.
You don't win 3 straight CL titles by being lucky.
You don't win 3 straight CL titles by being lucky.
No doubt.
There is still a considerable chance his team gets eliminated at Anfield.
His team that won three back to back CL's was better than Pep's Barca team.
I'd say less than 20%, Real don't bottle these the way Barca does
Agreed
With more available players and fresher legs I would agree with you, but under current circumstances I will say it's closer to 50% than it seems.
I can’t go that far at this stage, no way. There’s just been too many great managers that have completely revolutionised the sport or had success in multiple, wildly differing scenarios.
What I will say about Zidane is that he is clearly a fantastic manager, but there seems to be some reluctance for people to actually accept this, and I’m not sure why. His record is astounding. Maybe it’s the fact that he was such a great player.
I don't understand why he doesn't get complete support from the Madrid fans. 3 CLs and has delivered, what is it, 2 out of their 3 league titles this past decade? Even if you put cup successes down to some luck, he's their best manager in the league too for absolute ages. I know Madrid have high standards, but despite all the talk of crises following Ronaldo leaving, he delivered a league title immediately after.
I think it's because he doesn't seem to have a set style of play - he's much more of a chameleon who adapts his tactics according to his squad and the opposition.
I'd love to see him at Juve next and see how well he could do with a rebuild challenge there.
He is in a rebuild challenge right now, so do you mean that you would like to see him do it at specifically with Juventus? I have a feeling that Juventus are in a better situation but somehow failed to appoint suitable managers.
Most successful sure, but best manager? The ones who are seen as the best more or less also leave a legacy and a lasting influence on the game. Zidane won't do this as @TheMagicFoolBus mentioned - he does not stand for a certain style, he just knows how to get the best out of the players available, but there is no vision or something like that. His team has no identity and no one will replicate their style because they just don't have one. And that is not a bad thing currently for them, it just means that Real will need a manager who can do the same on his own and who can not build on a certain legacy except the squad. But as we have often seen, managing a great team you inherited and keeping up their style and success is also difficult, so in the end this does not matter much, especially for Real who tend to have shorter cycles and often don't do long-term team building.
Not to take anything away from him but at Madrid he's still had one of the best midfields in modern history. But yes I'd like to see if he could replicate his European triumphs with Juventus, a club that notoriously underachieves in the CL.
He had but he currently doesn't and the most important member of that midfield has declined and his close to the end. The team that he had in 2016 and the current one are far from each others, he has had to replace arguably the best player in the world in Ronaldo, arguably the best left back of the decade and has to deal with the fact that his key players are all old and declining.
My point being that he currently is in a rebuild project and I find it interesting that you see Juventus as a more interesting project. I don't disagree, it's just interesting and I'm also intrigued by it.
The thing is that if Zidane takes over Juventus and wins 3 consecutive CL titles with them, people will say "these must be some of the best midfielders or strikers or defenders of all time to have been able to achieve this."
Better than Sir Alex? No fecking chance.
What some people don't seem to notice with Zidane is that he's had a ridiculously short managerial career. I mean, the guy has been a coach of a top club since 2016 and not even the whole time. In total he has been at Madrid 4 years and half out of which, six months he had nothing to compete for (after Lopetegui and Solari) and other six months correspond to the present season.
The knowledge we have of him as a coach, either for good or bad, is still absurdly limited as compared to most.
The knowledge we have of him as a coach, either for good or bad, is still absurdly limited as compared to most.
Would be ridiculous if they do the double which they have every chance of doing. Winning 4 out of 5 CL titles is a joke.
Well Pep had similar success right out the gate and I don’t recall such reluctance to give him his due as a manager. Obviously he was very strongly associated with tiki-taka and has now been successful in multiple countries, but he was still given much more credit in his first few years than Zidane. I think that’s unfair.
Agreed. I'd argue that is the greatest European team of all time, so far, and what's really impressive is they genuinely didn't have as individually strong a team as Barca (most people will say it's close but generally fans seem to rank the Barca players like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc above their Real counterparts) which somewhat stops the Zidane has no tactics idea in it's tracks.
No it wasn’t, for the simple reason that Pep’s team was more dominant on a day to day basis and other teams were actually afraid to open up against them for fear of getting torn to shreds.
Yes Pep’s team didn’t do 3 CLs in a row, but they combined winning the league and the champions league better than Zidane’s team, who only did it once.
Doing that double is pretty hard, (Madrid have only managed it 3 times in their entire history) and I’d be stunned if Real Madrid pull it off this year with all their injuries but I wouldn’t rule it out.
He is already my all time favourite non United player. I have never thought about anyone being my favourite non United manager but he might actually just be that as well. Absolute legend!
It's a bit peculiar that Barcelona was "more dominant on a day to day basis" yet it somehow resulted in less CLs than Real Madrid.
Barcelona's style, and its high points, certainly made them look like the most dominant team ever. But their actual record in Europe was not one of hyper-domination. They only won 3 knockout/final games in the 2008-2009 CL, and 7 games total. The next season, they won 3 group stage games and 3 knockout games. Their most 'dominant' season was 2010-2011, where they won 9 games (5 in the knockouts/final and 4 in the group stages). In Peps' final season they won 5 group stage games and 3 knockout games. In general, Pep's Barcelona concedes too many results in knockout rounds, typically draws.
In comparison, Ancelotti's Real Madrid won 11 CL games in 2014, including 6 in the knockout rounds and final. Zidane's Real Madrid began their CL exploits winning 9 games in 2015-2016, 4 in the knockout rounds/final. In 2016-2017 they had a wobbly group stages with only 3 wins, but then won 6 games in the knockout rounds/final, for 9 games total. In 2018-2019, at their wobbliest, they won 3 group stage games and 5 knockout/final games.
Barcelona's style, and its high points, certainly made them look like the most dominant team ever. But their actual record in Europe was not one of hyper-domination. They only won 3 knockout/final games in the 2008-2009 CL, and 7 games total. The next season, they won 3 group stage games and 3 knockout games. Their most 'dominant' season was 2010-2011, where they won 9 games (5 in the knockouts/final and 4 in the group stages). In Peps' final season they won 5 group stage games and 3 knockout games. In general, Pep's Barcelona concedes too many results in knockout rounds, typically draws.
In comparison, Ancelotti's Real Madrid won 11 CL games in 2014, including 6 in the knockout rounds and final. Zidane's Real Madrid began their CL exploits winning 9 games in 2015-2016, 4 in the knockout rounds/final. In 2016-2017 they had a wobbly group stages with only 3 wins, but then won 6 games in the knockout rounds/final, for 9 games total. In 2018-2019, at their wobbliest, they won 3 group stage games and 5 knockout/final games.
Also, they would have one less CL in that time if it wasn't for one of the worst refereeing performances I've ever seen in their semi final with Chelsea.
He is achieving an unwavering commitment from the entire team in the final stretch of the season, even those who were very bad or considered weaknesses, such as Nacho, Militao or Asensio.
His bet on Lucas Vázquez on the right side has also been a success.
We will see how he solves Anfield's game with Odriozola.
His bet on Lucas Vázquez on the right side has also been a success.
We will see how he solves Anfield's game with Odriozola.
You think this because you are only looking at results in one competition. A team has to play European games, league games and various cup games, and all of these take a toll on your squad and it’s difficult to be strong across the board.
If you add up every single trophy, major and minor, that Zidane has won (in both stints) as Madrid boss and then add them to every single trophy that Ancelotti won as RM manager, the total is 15.
Pep won 14 honours during his 4 year period at Barca, so yes, I think it’s pretty safe to say that his team was more dominant on a day to day basis than Zidane’s. And that’s taking nothing away from ZZ, who I have great respect for (as I’ve outlined above).
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Kudos to him for the last results, but I have the feeling that these last two games were partially gifted by two naive displays both from Liverpool and Barcelona. Both way too open and exposed at Real's ground, with a very soft defence being naturally punished at the counter. You have to praise the man for being smart, adaptative and having no complex in terms of tactics, but as good as they looked they are yet to face bigger obstacles this season and we'll see what happens then. I'm looking forward to a potential Real-Chelsea as it could be very, very tight and interesting.
In any case Zidane deserves praise for getting gold from the war veterans in there, but surely a platform that includes Ramos (36), Modric (35), Kroos (31), Benzema (33) won't last eternally and they need to start planning something. These are essentially the same guys he started managing like 5 or 6 years ago, and players like Marcelo, Carvajal, Isco have remained there in decline under his umbrella while younger ones like Reguilon, Llorente, Achraaf have left the team and some others like Odegaard and Jovic could follow in the summer.
If these moves are decided by him or the board I don't know, but from the outside at least he seems too reliant on experience and averse to introduce new elements in the formula, which has brought them balance and tactical expertise, the class on the ball from their main players, but I think is limiting their options in terms physicality and pressing with such an ageing core.
They look to me like a classic good italian team in a more modern era, and as it happens with the likes of Conte or Allegri doesn't seem to be a big margin there for young players learning their trade. Except Vinicious I can't see anything in development to take over in the near future. But at the same time and for that reason their mechanics as a team are polished like a swiss clock, they're extremely well organized and Zidane has made them hungry again so the door is open for them to win things. But hey, let's see how the season pans out before building him a statue.
Also, if their old guard steps down soon, more or less at the same time as it happened to us with Rio, Vidic, Evra, Giggs and co., let's see how they replace all that leadership and know-how with hierarchic players, added to the holes they need to fill already. It doesn't look like they're doing the homework in that regard.
Barcelona in comparison are a soft team under Koeman, bland in both boxes and with many young players around like Pedri, Dest, Mingueza, Araujo, now that Moriba guy too who almost scored against Real, Dembele and De Jong at 23. And even then they're still close in the league table despite Messi going ghost for the first half of the season.
At this stage and before seeing what happens I'd say good work overall from Zidane since his return, there's no denying. But I'm not as impressed as many others.
In any case Zidane deserves praise for getting gold from the war veterans in there, but surely a platform that includes Ramos (36), Modric (35), Kroos (31), Benzema (33) won't last eternally and they need to start planning something. These are essentially the same guys he started managing like 5 or 6 years ago, and players like Marcelo, Carvajal, Isco have remained there in decline under his umbrella while younger ones like Reguilon, Llorente, Achraaf have left the team and some others like Odegaard and Jovic could follow in the summer.
If these moves are decided by him or the board I don't know, but from the outside at least he seems too reliant on experience and averse to introduce new elements in the formula, which has brought them balance and tactical expertise, the class on the ball from their main players, but I think is limiting their options in terms physicality and pressing with such an ageing core.
They look to me like a classic good italian team in a more modern era, and as it happens with the likes of Conte or Allegri doesn't seem to be a big margin there for young players learning their trade. Except Vinicious I can't see anything in development to take over in the near future. But at the same time and for that reason their mechanics as a team are polished like a swiss clock, they're extremely well organized and Zidane has made them hungry again so the door is open for them to win things. But hey, let's see how the season pans out before building him a statue.
Also, if their old guard steps down soon, more or less at the same time as it happened to us with Rio, Vidic, Evra, Giggs and co., let's see how they replace all that leadership and know-how with hierarchic players, added to the holes they need to fill already. It doesn't look like they're doing the homework in that regard.
Barcelona in comparison are a soft team under Koeman, bland in both boxes and with many young players around like Pedri, Dest, Mingueza, Araujo, now that Moriba guy too who almost scored against Real, Dembele and De Jong at 23. And even then they're still close in the league table despite Messi going ghost for the first half of the season.
At this stage and before seeing what happens I'd say good work overall from Zidane since his return, there's no denying. But I'm not as impressed as many others.
You have to understand that it looks a bit silly that you're pointing out "MORE = BETTER" for Pep when it comes to all titles, including minor ones. But when it comes to the CL, the most important title of them all, suddenly "MORE = BETTER" is handwaved away and instead you come up with a new, arbitrary measure of "Liga+CL double" to say "aha, Pep has more of that too!" You are just arbitrarily picking and choosing which parameters count for 'quantification' and which don't, if you do that you can reach any conclusion you want. Might as well stop using numbers.
Pep won 3 Ligas and 2 CLs in 4 years. Zidane won 2 Ligas and 3 CLs in 3.5 years. Pep outdoes him with Copa titles, which no one in Spain really gives a flying feck about.