I'm not really sure what basis there is for saying Bayern are definitely better than us. Sure they've reached the Champion's League semi-finals, but so have Chelsea. They've got a huge fortnight ahead of them, and they could show themselves to be a great side, but if they lose at Westfalenstadion on Wednesday and then get done at home by Real next week then, well, they're clearly nothing special.
How good are we?
- Thread starter Plechazunga
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Bayern are very hit and miss. They looked a bit like City early on in the season, unstoppable, but that's changed. I said all along that they're the only team in the knockouts who could beat Barca or Real, I still feel that to be the case, but they're definitely not better than us, especially as a squad, they just have some really great players available to them.
Not one person has argued that Europe wasn't an abomination, we're just saying that it doesn't suddenly make us an average team.
We quite obviously have a tactical weakness in europe (as we've had before once upon a time) and we all know that our youth can leave us open to mistakes, we'll need to address both of those concerns to go for the trophy again but they're small issues.
Domestically we're absurdly good and in Europe we'll be in the bookies top 5 next season, it is possible to appreciate our abilities as a top team while recognising some weakness.
You've misread me on that last point. I think our second 11 could beat anyone else's second 11.
Of course Europe was horrendous this year. I think it's down to a number of factors, and tbh think it reflects much less on our quality than being top of the league with almost a record points haul.
Were better than City but not better than Bilbao. I'll be well chuffed if we do win the league but we need catch up those Spanish teams for me. Probably by adopting a similar style.
Hopefully next season we won't have as many injuries, add some quality, let a few go and see improvement in Europe.
Hopefully next season we won't have as many injuries, add some quality, let a few go and see improvement in Europe.
This doesn't make any sense at all. La Liga may be superior to the Premier League in terms of quality, but it's not so far ahead that the top teams in the Premier League aren't better to a side who can only hope for a Champions League battle at best.
This whole Athletic thing is so stupid. Look at Napoli. They beat city over two legs effectively, and then lost to Chelsea later on. Does that mean Napoli are better than City and as a result Chelsea are better than both of them? Of course not.
In the game Rock-Paper-Scissors, Rock is superior to Scissors, Scissors to Paper, Paper to Rock.
Whilst I am not going to try to apply the analogy to United and Bilbao I do think, like many on here, that we got found out against Athletic Club. Their high pressing game destroyed us, many saying they beat us more thoroughly than when we played Barcelona both times. And I agree.
If it was a matter of life and death, or Champions League or not, we would probably raise our game and give them a good show of it, so we could probably beat them about as much as they beat us.
No one is suggesting that Bilbao are going to win Leagues against us, assuming that we where in the same league, but they found us out. They destroyed us. So in a very basic "play each other to decide who is better" kind of way, they are better than us.
And those who are saying "we have a much better squad", so what? City have a better squad than us. Are they better?
Whilst I am not going to try to apply the analogy to United and Bilbao I do think, like many on here, that we got found out against Athletic Club. Their high pressing game destroyed us, many saying they beat us more thoroughly than when we played Barcelona both times. And I agree.
If it was a matter of life and death, or Champions League or not, we would probably raise our game and give them a good show of it, so we could probably beat them about as much as they beat us.
No one is suggesting that Bilbao are going to win Leagues against us, assuming that we where in the same league, but they found us out. They destroyed us. So in a very basic "play each other to decide who is better" kind of way, they are better than us.
And those who are saying "we have a much better squad", so what? City have a better squad than us. Are they better?
feck sake.
Bilbao are 11th in La Liga.
Watch the matches again, they outclassed us. They would've done the same to any prem side. They might not be as consistent as us but on their day as we saw they were far superior.
You miss the point. Firstly Napoli didn't destroy City. And Chelsea didn't destroy Napoli.
Secondly neither lot of teams found out a fundamental weakness in the style of play in either team.
Yes, they outclassed us on this occasion, but that was because they were able to expose our weaknesses. If we weren't so ill prepared and playing in a competition we could care less about, then I think we would have given them a much better game to be honest. You can't just look at head to head records between teams and judge which one is better off of that. Going by that logic, West Ham were a better team than us in 2006/2007, which is ridiculous to think.
I think that many are underestimating/overestimating the Athletic Bilbao's defeat. That defeat does show in some extent our weakness, however, I think that our biggest weakness lie in our attitude (which focus on putting the ball forward as quickly as possible rather then on dominating opposition through ball possession)
Its only fair to say that a change of game ideology will probably need also a change of staff. However I feel that we would have been battered against any club who play that sort of game, whether its Barcelona (filled with world class talent) or 'little' Athletic Bilbao.
Its only fair to say that a change of game ideology will probably need also a change of staff. However I feel that we would have been battered against any club who play that sort of game, whether its Barcelona (filled with world class talent) or 'little' Athletic Bilbao.
City have a worse squad than us. We destroy them depth wise.
It's ridiculous isn't it? I guess Benfica and Basel are better than us too.
Bilbao are 11th in La Liga.
For fecks sake
Just ignore people like that. It's maddening how much people read into a half hearted Europa league game.
Ajax are also very very close to us of course.
I'd back the 07-09 team against any team in the world, except Barcelona. Possession football doesn't come into it, we won't stop playing the way we play. We weren't helped by loss of experience in our defense (vital to European operations), and our lack of a world class midfielder. Once we have those 2 elements again we'll be fine.
Considering the 11th best team in La Liga are so vastly superior to us, and therefore every team in English football, I'd dread to think what, say, the third best team in La Liga would have done to an English side were they to have faced them in European competition this season.
Fortunately for the reputation of English football, such a contest never occurred.
Fortunately for the reputation of English football, such a contest never occurred.
No, it represents our decline in Europe. I don't buy into the shit that we're not as good as teams like Bilbao and Basel, obviously that's pure rubbish. We were very exposed at times in Europe this year though, we don't have a team capable of putting out the right formation for European matches at the moment, well, we didn't before Scholes came back, it's probably more debatable now. I'm sure SAF will address it in the Summer.
You are hilariously optimistic about everything though Twigg, so fair play I guess. We could've gotten relegated this season and you'd probably go "ah well, unlucky I guess".
The English used to play long ball football, the Italians were masters in the catenaccio. Everyone adapts, we'll have to do the same. I doubt that United will play like Barcelona. However we'll adapt that type of game to our style.
Seems a bit presumptuous. I'm positive generally because our team has been ridiculously good for years now. I've never been on this forum when weve not been incredibly good.
If you're not optimistic over the last few years then bloody hell I suggest following another hobby because we've never had it so good!
I'm optimistic, I said all season we'd win the league.
It doesn't mean we're perfect and immune from criticism though, there are still areas in the team that need to be improved in the Summer, you'd have to be blind or wearing extremely red tinted glasses not to see that.
It doesn't mean we're perfect and immune from criticism though, there are still areas in the team that need to be improved in the Summer, you'd have to be blind or wearing extremely red tinted glasses not to see that.
No team is perfect and every team can be improved. Im just happy our team is better than any other English club.
Surely we should aim to be as good as every European club too? A tall order given how good Barca, and to a lesser extent Real are, but I doubt SAF will sit back and say "we're the best team in the PL, that'll do me fine"
Ok well considering that we were weakened by missing key players for games like that, i.e. Vidic/Fletcher doesn't that have any contribution? Also not to mention that tactically we got it wrong as well, partly because of injuries we had to try unusual combos that didn't work, i.e. Jones and Giggs.
Also Napoli played pretty well against City in one of the legs anyway.
If you guys seriously want to believe that Athletic are a better team than us then fair enough, I think that's simply not true though. They deserved their victory no doubt but if we played them again I would back us every time.
That's what I mean, we will evolve our style we need to. People comparing Bilboa to West Ham double defeats of old, now that's ridiculous.
IMO if we added 3/4 wordclass player to current young squad, given another year to mature and gel together then we would once again be among european elite. As identified by the forum our current midfield is rather padestrian when pitted against a high tempo pressing team of invention, and for me we are currently somewhat unbalance without an orthodox left winger.
I truelly believe adding a commanding centre mid, left winger, left back and creative forward would create a squad capable of competeing at top for many years.
LW - Gotze
DM - Strootman/Martinez
LB - Alba/Kolodziejczak
CF - Muniain
I truelly believe adding a commanding centre mid, left winger, left back and creative forward would create a squad capable of competeing at top for many years.
LW - Gotze
DM - Strootman/Martinez
LB - Alba/Kolodziejczak
CF - Muniain
You're right even though were top of the league with a potential record number of points we need to spend multiple millions on players you've seen once or twice and replace over a third of our starting 11.
No they don't.
Yeah that does, both of those contribute, plus the fact its possible we couldn't give a shit about that competition. But as many people said at the time, we could have played them with our first XI with our lives on the line and would still have got destroyed. The scoreline badly flattered us: https://www.redcafe.net/f7/congratulations-athletic-club-350318/
We'd destroy them in a League because of our strength in depth amongst other things, but I wouldn't want to meet them in a European Cup final
We're top of the league, but we won't compete with this squad in Europe. Yes we need to spend millions and millions to win the Champions League again, everybody knows it.
We've competed with this squad in Europe over numerous seasons. Throwing money at the latest hot young name will not solve all our problems.
Can't believe people think city's squad is as good as ours. A team which has to play players like savic, Johnson and pantmillon if they have a few injuries.
Our back up players like Evans, young and Hernandez are a class above theirs.
What back up do we have in midfield ? We won't win the Champions League in the next couple of years with our current crop of midfielders. We're the best in England, but I don't think we could beat Barcelona or Real Madrid.
Kind of agree, I think our squad is close. Maybe 1or2 players in and a few out (Fletch, Ando, Berba and Park) and we'll be fine. I've got faith in Pogba and Cleverley for the near future too. We need to adapt our style more than anything.
Fortunately we have a good squad, though to compete with the very best of europe we need to add a bit more quality to make it a greate squad/team. The bench mark is now Barca and we should not let our abillity to win a weekend EPL distract us from realising our shortcomings.
I have watch all of the players mentioned above many time over last 2 seaons and 2 of them in person while they destroyed our team home and away.
So my short sighted friend please tell me how adding a 4th striker to replace an unused Berba would weaken our squad, or how providing cover for a left-back who is seemingly making more mistakes than in previous seasons would not add weight to our challenge. PLus enlighten me regards how adding a Defensive midfielder to our sqauad to enabled JOnes to play in natural position is knee jerk reaction, or how adding a left-footed player to team would not add much needed balance.
That's £100m there, too expensive for the club.
It's not ridiculous at all. You said that Bilbao were better purely because they beat us twice; I used the West Ham example to show you have flawed your logic was.
Agree its a large investment though add these young players to our relatively young squad, tie down the likes of pogba, cleverly, wellbeck and the twins and i think we would have all areas of the pitch covered for a few years.
We can have an off day or two against a smaller club in a season. But we still know that were a far superior team to them. Bilbao have world class players and gave us a football lesson twice. The scorelines flattered us, so it's a bit different. So it turns out your logic is flawed, which is nice.
Yeah, they're such a world class team that they aren't even in the top half of their league at the moment. Could it possibly occur to you that we had an off day against them? Yes, they exploited our weaknesses, but perhaps we'd have been better suited to coping with those weaknesses if our players had been up for it. This was a competition that, to be quite frank, Fergie didn't want to see us win. Bilbao are a good team and exposed us, however how much time did Fergie really spend on tactics for this game? Had it been a Champions League game, I guarantee he would have put a lot more into it and we wouldn't have looked so inferior to them.
No worries though, you can continue going on about Bilbao like they're the second coming of Barcelona. They're guaranteed to win the Champions League next season. Oh yeah, wait a minute, they won't even be in it because they're not actually anywhere near as good as you're saying they are.
Why are you even arguing with him? His tagline says everything.