To blame drunk ticketless fans is to dismiss every other game that went by with only minor scuffles when fans were jibbing in back then. While the jibbing in didn't help, it was part of most matches back then and shouldn't be used as a smokescreen for bad decisions from those in charge of running the day and a poor standard of ground facilities.
e-petition to release the govt Hillsborough files
- Thread starter Badunk
- Start date
If, like me, you missed the 6pm showing of the LFC.tv special, it's repeated again in a few minutes.
The programme has got some of the MPs' names wrong, but it's a good summary of Monday evening's debate.
Over 30,000 signatures now.
Petition to force the S*n newspaper to release its Hillsborough 'The Truth' sources and documents - e-petitions
Petition to force the S*n newspaper to release its Hillsborough 'The Truth' sources and documents - e-petitions
As well as the police and whoever turns out to be at fault for the events at Hillsborough, Stoney@Bluemoon made an interesting point.......
"If people want someone to blame why not look at the reason the fences were there in the first place.
Every football hooligan in the country had a hand in Hillsborough and it sickens me when I see threads glorifying them.
Without hooligans there wouldn't have been fences, without fences Hillsborough wouldn't have happened.
Obviously those accountable for decisions taken on the day should have been brought to book long ago but this a good point.....
"If people want someone to blame why not look at the reason the fences were there in the first place.
Every football hooligan in the country had a hand in Hillsborough and it sickens me when I see threads glorifying them.
Without hooligans there wouldn't have been fences, without fences Hillsborough wouldn't have happened.
Obviously those accountable for decisions taken on the day should have been brought to book long ago but this a good point.....
This will get shouted down at most forums. Everyone will agree what happened on that day was not the result of hooligans, but there was the rowdy element in the crowd back in the day which led to a few questionable decisions like fencing.
Dont misunderstand me, Im not saying there was any hooliganism or anything like it on that day, I just agree with the point that if we had not had years of Hooliganism from "supporters" of ALL clubs, ours included there may not have been fencing and those 96 people would have come home again.
In no way do I mean any disrespect to those that were there or mean to imply they were to blame.
I suspect that many of the club owners of the time would have 'accommodated' supporters in whatever fashion was cheapest, rather than safest. The Bradford City Fire Disaster is an example of this inexcusable behaviour: the club had achieved a Championship title - leading of course to more revenue in that season and (potentially) beyond - yet no-one in authority at the club was prepared to spend money clearing out the accumulated rubbish which facillitated the fire. The owners trusted other people's lives to luck. So, while few would argue with the 'hooligan' point, the sad fact seems to be that greed played a part in not a few football disasters; that and the British tradition of treating the working class as cattle. It's only in recent times that clubs/owners deigned supporters as worthy of comfort at the match, and that oh-so-generous concession has led to the thousand-pound season ticket; greed is always with us.
The Caf's 'Old Football Grounds' thread is somewhat relevant here - take a look at Norwich City's former ground, 'The Nest' - built in a quarry, with a concrete wall around it; dangerous to both supporters and players. Cheap though, and that's often the bottom line for some wealthy types: 'profits before people' is their credo.
The Caf's 'Old Football Grounds' thread is somewhat relevant here - take a look at Norwich City's former ground, 'The Nest' - built in a quarry, with a concrete wall around it; dangerous to both supporters and players. Cheap though, and that's often the bottom line for some wealthy types: 'profits before people' is their credo.
Both valid arguments. What is clear is that there is a big change in approach to football matches. Makes it wonder if the supporters who miss the 'buzz' of the 80's think it's worth all these.
But with Hillsborough, the main issue is the way how police and press (especially one publication) portrayed the victims. And that is a disgrace.
You are 100% correct. The fact is football fans had an awful reputation at the time, and in order to combat them the football clubs set up methods of controlling supporters to prevent hooliganism.
Ken Bates famously wanted to put electric fencing up to prevent fans marauding onto the pitch. Fortunately the local authority saw sense and told him he couldn't do it. Had such a scheme been permitted and used at grounds like Valley Parade and Hillsborough the death tolls there would have been in the hundreds..
Football fans were partially to blame for some of the methods put in place to control the hooligan element, however there has to be a balance between controllling crowds to protect everyone, and making sure the very people you are controlling are looked after in a safe manner.
The bottom line is, the clubs safety certificate was out of date and the safety measures they had in place were rendered worthless by the alterations they had made when they took down some of the crush barriers on the Leppings Lane end. There was inadequate first aid provisions and the police had absolutely no control on the day, from start to finish. The police officers, by their own admissions ( which were never allowed to be mentioned in the subsequent Taylor Report ) were not organised and did not know how to deal with an incident of this manner. In fact such an incident wasn't even thought about. As far as they were concerned, the only thing to be worried about was hooligans and for that reason the police, when they saw people climbing over fences took the view it could only be trouble at hand, and went so far as to push people BACK into the stands.
It was only the courageous actions of one officer who took the view that if he got the sack then so be it, he wasn't going to stand and watch people die just because his boss had no idea what to do. He opened gates and let fans onto the pitch, and that policemans actions saved many lives because that started to ease the pressure on people who would almost certainly have died that day.
Going back to your point, yes football fans in general have to take a share of the blame. All too often we applaud things like the Red Army who rampaged across England and Europe. We glorify our famous hooligan element, but in truth it was that element that gave the authorities the license to do what they want.
There is a famous tale of Margaret Thatcher being met by leaders of the FA and when one of them said "get your hooligans out of our game" she looked at him fiercely and said "If you want them out, then just do whatever it takes"
Sadly thats exactly what they did, and the result was 96 dead fans.
Brilliant post Fred, you just should not post about Glazers and you'll be alright.
I've made a promise I won't get into the arguments over the Glazers. Its been done to death now. I have my views, I've expressed them often enough, and its the ones I stand by..Brilliant post Fred, you just should not post about Glazers and you'll be alright.
Time to just move on and discuss other things that in truth are far more important than who exactly makes money out of football.
Almost 33,000 now.
Just copy and paste the address under my name if you haven't already done so.
Just copy and paste the address under my name if you haven't already done so.
Are you going to games? FC or United? Nice to see you are back here since I share most of your views. As much as i hate everything about Liverpool THAT was a very sad day and I get a tear in me eye whenever I watch pics/films about it, thinking of the families who lost their love ones. Nice to see that everyone in here shows respect to all connected to LFC. Still hate them though but I would not want any of them dead so sad,sad day
David Cameron says Hillsborough families may never “achieve closure” despite files release
Cameron: Hillsborough families may never “achieve closure” - Liverpool Daily Post
Uncaring cretin.
Cameron: Hillsborough families may never “achieve closure” - Liverpool Daily Post
of course they shouldn't, but I rather get the impression that the presence of these " drunk ticketless fans "is very much played down.
Am I allowed to say that?
There may have been drunk ticketless fans 12 months earlier. Same match, same teams, same ground, same fans. Only difference being, nobody died.
In 1988 the police operated a system whereby they'd have lines of officers situated near to The Leppings lane. They would ask to view supporters tickets & would then politely request we make our way closer to the ground. The police very cleverly manipulated the Liverpool fans into forming orderly queues, & as a result, I'd imagine 90% of supporters were in the ground 35 to 40 minutes before kick-off. It was good, common-sense policing. The same practices were not put into place the following year. No thought, or preparation, was given as to how they were going to get 24,000 people through 23 turnstiles in the space of an hour or so. No measures were taken to relieve the pressure on the 2 overcrowded pens, even though it was blindingly obvious there were problems in there even before they opened the gates.
Should this have its own thread? E-petition for inquest in Hillsborough Kevin Williams' death urgently needs signatures.
Give Kevin Williams his inquest under section 13 of the coroners Act, we have all the evidence under this section but keep getting refused. - e-petitions
Give Kevin Williams his inquest under section 13 of the coroners Act, we have all the evidence under this section but keep getting refused. - e-petitions
Yeah, go on and start it if you're okay with doing so. If it's not up within five minutes, I'll do it. It needs all the help it can get with just over 24 hours to go.
It can be seen as a goodwill gesture from us to Liverpool if you want to see it that way, but it's more about getting justice, and perhaps peace, for a mother.
Scared to bump this, but what they hey.
Hillsborough: Thatcher told 'drunk fans' caused disaster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
Hillsborough: Thatcher told 'drunk fans' caused disaster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
Liverpool fans are going to be up in arms about this...
Surely being drunk and turning up without a ticket and trying to force their way into a packed stadium can't have been the cause of this tragedy...it's got to be the polices fault for not doing their job. Or the media for printing lies (which they did).
Nope. Can't see most Liverpool fans taking any kind of responsibility for the terrible events that unfolded that day. It's always somebody else fault in their little world.
Surely being drunk and turning up without a ticket and trying to force their way into a packed stadium can't have been the cause of this tragedy...it's got to be the polices fault for not doing their job. Or the media for printing lies (which they did).
Nope. Can't see most Liverpool fans taking any kind of responsibility for the terrible events that unfolded that day. It's always somebody else fault in their little world.
Was it ever proven that some Liverpool supporters entered the ground with fake tickets or was that a myth?
I haven't read the report.
I haven't read the report.
If there was any truth to that shit the authorities would have released it. This isn't a Scouse thing, all football fans were considered scum to those in charge back in the day, could have happened any team.
In this case, Devilton, they are the victims.
The Taylor report said it wasn't a significant factor.
The Taylor report concluded the main cause of the disaster "was the failure of police control". Look it up before drawing your conclusions.
No, no, no, NO!
Not his again!
There is no responsibility to take, there is nothing to take resposibility for.
'Drunk, ticketless supporters...' Still, 2012? It's too depressing for words.
Not his again!
There is no responsibility to take, there is nothing to take resposibility for.
'Drunk, ticketless supporters...' Still, 2012? It's too depressing for words.
The article in the BBC today says it was the opinion of one policeman 4 days after the disaster that drunken fans were to blame. This isn't Earth shattering. In the days following a disaster like that there are likely to be several theories being peddled about. In the subsequent investigations this wasn't found to be the case.
The BBC really tried to stir some shit with this "leak". Especially with the headline they had up previously before it was changed.
The BBC really tried to stir some shit with this "leak". Especially with the headline they had up previously before it was changed.
A day to think about those people who went to watch a match and never came back.
BBC:
Secret government and police documents relating to Hillsborough football disaster to be released on 12 September
Secret government and police documents relating to Hillsborough football disaster to be released on 12 September
Just been reading on RAWK that there are two documentaries due next week, on ITV and BBC, by different production companies. Obviously not a coincidence if you look at Drifter's post that I've quoted.
Credit to Kopite1971 from RAWK.
Will be watching both with great interest.
Badunk, you might be interested in this, hope the link works http://m.belfastfestival.com/sites/BelfastFestivalatQueens/EventStore/Name,335191,en.html
Cheers, mate, but I won't be home in Oct/Nov. Gonna try to get back for Xmas.
Seems like the BBC1 show is only on BBC1 Yorkshire. It's ch 956 for those with Sky.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=297333.0
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=297333.0
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012...borough-family-support-group-100252-31777412/
Paddy Shennan presents the crucial questions bereaved families hope the Hillsborough Independent Panel will answer next week
NEXT Wednesday, the Hillsborough Independent Panel – which was set up to secure the maximum possible disclosure of documents relating to the disaster – will publish its report.
This will detail how the new information adds to the public’s understanding of the tragedy and its aftermath.
Here is a summary of the key questions the Hillsborough Family Support Group asked the panel to answer after it was set up:
Why did a venue without a safety certificate get used for such a high-profile match and why have Sheffield Wednesday not been taken to task for this lack of duty of care?
Why were Liverpool fans given the smaller end of the ground, when they had the largest number of supporters? Liverpool Football Club had asked for this to be changed – why was their request ignored?
Why was (Chief Superintendent David) Duckenfield in charge on the day? What were his qualifications/experience/competency? Why was (Chief Superintendent Brian) Mole not in charge, as he was in 1988 (when Liverpool also played Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough in the FA Cup semi-final)?
Why were the controls and precautions that had been adopted in 1988 not used in 1989?
Why was there a 10% reduction in manpower for the 1989 semi-final from the 1988 semi-final? Eighty more police officers at the Leppings Lane end could have made a significant difference, filtering fans. Approx 980 officers were used for the 1988 semi-final, 1000 for the semi-final in 1987 and 1,200 for the semi-final between Wolves and Spurs (in 1981). Please can you look into documentation which explains the reasons for this reduced manpower?
Ref: PC 2302 Powell, Taylor Report – referring to the policing in Leppings Lane at 2.45pm – the following passage was omitted: “The first thing I said was ‘where are all the Bobbies, there is hardly anyone there’, I could not understand how such a crowd could possibly have gathered. I recall in previous games there was usually a large police presence concentrated on this part of the ground, usually forming some sort of cordon.” Could the panel comment?
Why did the police further delay fans making their way by road to the match (ie. on the Snake and Woodhead Passes) when roadworks were already hindering their journey?
Why was the kick-off not delayed?
The people in pen 3 were in dire straits by 2.30pm and by 2.45pm were in serious danger of losing their lives. Why has this never been fully investigated? See camera 5.
Should there have been two separate inquests – one for those who died inside the ground and a separate one for those outside the ground who came in when the gates were opened?
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012...-support-group-100252-31777412/#ixzz25hY51i4E
Paddy Shennan presents the crucial questions bereaved families hope the Hillsborough Independent Panel will answer next week
NEXT Wednesday, the Hillsborough Independent Panel – which was set up to secure the maximum possible disclosure of documents relating to the disaster – will publish its report.
This will detail how the new information adds to the public’s understanding of the tragedy and its aftermath.
Here is a summary of the key questions the Hillsborough Family Support Group asked the panel to answer after it was set up:
Why did a venue without a safety certificate get used for such a high-profile match and why have Sheffield Wednesday not been taken to task for this lack of duty of care?
Why were Liverpool fans given the smaller end of the ground, when they had the largest number of supporters? Liverpool Football Club had asked for this to be changed – why was their request ignored?
Why was (Chief Superintendent David) Duckenfield in charge on the day? What were his qualifications/experience/competency? Why was (Chief Superintendent Brian) Mole not in charge, as he was in 1988 (when Liverpool also played Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough in the FA Cup semi-final)?
Why were the controls and precautions that had been adopted in 1988 not used in 1989?
Why was there a 10% reduction in manpower for the 1989 semi-final from the 1988 semi-final? Eighty more police officers at the Leppings Lane end could have made a significant difference, filtering fans. Approx 980 officers were used for the 1988 semi-final, 1000 for the semi-final in 1987 and 1,200 for the semi-final between Wolves and Spurs (in 1981). Please can you look into documentation which explains the reasons for this reduced manpower?
Ref: PC 2302 Powell, Taylor Report – referring to the policing in Leppings Lane at 2.45pm – the following passage was omitted: “The first thing I said was ‘where are all the Bobbies, there is hardly anyone there’, I could not understand how such a crowd could possibly have gathered. I recall in previous games there was usually a large police presence concentrated on this part of the ground, usually forming some sort of cordon.” Could the panel comment?
Why did the police further delay fans making their way by road to the match (ie. on the Snake and Woodhead Passes) when roadworks were already hindering their journey?
Why was the kick-off not delayed?
The people in pen 3 were in dire straits by 2.30pm and by 2.45pm were in serious danger of losing their lives. Why has this never been fully investigated? See camera 5.
Should there have been two separate inquests – one for those who died inside the ground and a separate one for those outside the ground who came in when the gates were opened?
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012...-support-group-100252-31777412/#ixzz25hY51i4E
Bump
Channel 956 tonight on Sky @ 10.25
Channel 956 tonight on Sky @ 10.25
May be off-topic, but does any of this relate to The Sun hopefully revealing their sources? Or is that a completely different matter?
Crickey, hopefully the Liverpool fans can get some closure soon.
Not sure, mate. Think they might just be timed to coincide with the release of the report on the 12th. Put the issue back in the public eye, so to speak.