If we beat Real (which was the likely scenario until the sending off), then there's no reason why we couldn't beat Bayern.
Realistically if we want to win the CL anytime soon..
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Like they did the team 21 points behind us in the league?
Bayern are a much better team this year than last year, that's plainly obvious.
They wouldn't "have us for breakfast" though.
What makes you think Real is on the same level as Bayern this year? They couldn't beat them last year and Bayern is a lot stronger than last year while Real isn't.
Bayern beat real last year.
And Chelsea beat everyone last year.
The ultimate counter to any suggestion that the CL provides conclusive proof of superiority.
The ultimate counter to any suggestion that the CL provides conclusive proof of superiority.
Are Bayern now the new club that Red Cafe posters will anxiously pedestalize as some kind of utopian benchmark for footballing excellence to which we must aspire to emulate?
I even bet that Schweinsteiger has a much bigger penis than Carrick
I even bet that Schweinsteiger has a much bigger penis than Carrick
Yes. Unless they get pumped by Ronaldo in the final, then it'll be Real who are definitely much better than us.
Of course not we can still win the PL with hoof balls and zombie passing and while we are talking about genitals, I already mentioned that in another thread, Carragher has 4 balls.Are Bayern now the new club that Red Cafe posters to anxiously pedestalize as some kind of utopian benchmark for footballing excellence to which we must aspire to emulate?
I even bet that Schweinsteiger has a much bigger penis than Carrick
Spot on.
And at that time, when we signed those players, everybody was convinced we'd win it.
I really want to see Fergie lifting an other CL, and we won't do it with the current set of midfielders.
Bayern are probably better yes, but we were also better than Real over the two fixtures 11 vs 11.
And Chelsea beat Bayern, football isn't as straightforward as that.
Problem?
Was actually thinking about Arsenal. Compare and contrast the results/balance of play on their trip to OT with their trip to Munich.
Obviously, can't read too much into one game but Arsenal came quite close to knocking Bayern out and we're a far better side than Arsenal.
Yes of course.
It's only the game from yesterday that makes people think that Bayern plays some excellent football this season at a level we would love our club to see play as well.
Their record breaking season and them still being in good position to do the treble this season has of course nothing to do with it.
Better get back to ball hoofing and zombie passing, so much more fun to watch.
Arsenal have a tendency to do that when they've nothing to loose anymore though, it's when they're in a good position that they capitulate. Bayern also destroyed Barca and Juventus at home and they're both way better than Arsenal.
I blame their Arsenal loss on complacency and overconfidence for the most part. I think they all assumed it was already over and nobody really showed up for the game. The way they dismantled Juve (most likely a better team than Arsenal) in the next round in both games showed to me they learned their lesson.
Hmmm.. Barca are in a really poor spell of form right now and Celtic also beat Juve at home.
Don't get me wrong. I think Bayern are a very good side this season. I just think that, as usual, people are far under-rating our own team and over-rating the European flavour of the month.
If I was a betting man, I would make Bayern favourites if we played them over two legs. I think we'd have a very good chance of upsetting the odds, though.
Don't disagree with you there.
Like as not, yes. People have a tendency to go hysterical. I remember United fans demanding that we hire Bielsa after the largely meaningless encounters with Bilbao last season.Are Bayern now the new club that Red Cafe posters will anxiously pedestalize as some kind of utopian benchmark for footballing excellence to which we must aspire to emulate?
I even bet that Schweinsteiger has a much bigger penis than Carrick
At least Bayern would be a more realistic benchmark. The fact is that they disposed of Barca playing a kind of football which is much closer to what we've been up to than any kind of tiki-taka. They proved that you can positively outclass an opponent that completely dominates you in terms of possession: Now, there's encouragement - for us - in that fact.
At the end of the day, though, what any team needs on the night is a bit of flow - or a bit of luck, if you want. We weren't miles off anyone this season - and we were downright unlucky against Real. If we had gone through the momentum could very well have carried us on all the way: You can't look at the fairly lackluster side that lost against City and Chelsea - and compare that to the sharp-as-feck Bayern machine that humiliated Barca last night. It's not nearly as simple as that.
I think we'd have a better chance of beating today's Bayern than Guardiola's Barca. Barca's system was one that we just didn't have the right strengths to play against, and you honestly would have bet on that side to beat us again and again and again. Bayern don't have a particularly unique system, they just have a really strong set of players.
Obviously they'd be favourites, because they're the strongest team in Europe at the moment. But Caftards always underrate our own strength in Europe. A good majority seemed to have Madrid as firm favourites but we were comfortably on top of them until the red card.
So again, I think we'd have been beaten by Bayern but not embarrassed, and I think we'd have been a match for anyone else.
The defence is there, the forwards are there. Because we never dealt properly with the central midfield problem, we now have both that and the wings to worry about. But a couple of really top quality acquisitions across the midfield will certainly be enough to keep us as a serious CL contender.
Obviously they'd be favourites, because they're the strongest team in Europe at the moment. But Caftards always underrate our own strength in Europe. A good majority seemed to have Madrid as firm favourites but we were comfortably on top of them until the red card.
So again, I think we'd have been beaten by Bayern but not embarrassed, and I think we'd have been a match for anyone else.
The defence is there, the forwards are there. Because we never dealt properly with the central midfield problem, we now have both that and the wings to worry about. But a couple of really top quality acquisitions across the midfield will certainly be enough to keep us as a serious CL contender.
Exactly like that. They did eat them for breakfast but then they got full.
Look at their record this season. Their attacking game has been devastating. They've conceded three goals away in the league. They beat Barcelona 4-0 (when did that last happen).
The only criticism is that they've taken a few games this season for granted. With so little left of the season I've a hard time seeing them do so again.
This thread is about our midfield. Well, Bayern demolished the team with the best midfield in the world. Toni Kroos wasn't even in the squad. Götze is being added to that list for the next season and they had Gustavo to spare.
Meanwhile we're pinning our hopes to a 32 year old, a home grown that might become good and Giggs whilst using Rooney and Jones as backups (two players that shouldn't be close in the pecking order in that position).
It's "this thread" again because it's such an obvious hole in our otherwise excellent team. It's like that nerd that got all A's in school but failed PE.
Indeed, Bayern are what United try to be. The style of play is quite similar to the "traditional" Manchester United way except that right now Bayern have much better wide players than us - and look at how Barcelona were totally powerless against Robben or against the forward forays of Alaba - and are a lot stronger in CM. We have more raw firepower (Rooney, Van Persie, Hernández) but overall their team is stronger and therefore plays better football. The gulf in individual quality isn't huge at all but their team is more balanced and doesn't have obvious weaknesses.
Gods, the arguments I had over the summer about those fecking matches. There were people who honestly believed Bilbao were better than us after a match in which we rested half the first team.
Despite our apparently woeful lack of options in central midfield we've consistently finished ahead of teams that, on paper, have vastly superior central midfielders to us. Going back several years now. in fact. in terms of player by player comparisons on this website I would say the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and (more recently) City have consistently been rated ahead of us in central midfield going back 5 or 6 years. If not longer.
This tells me one of two things. Our midfield options are better than people think. Having a stronger central midfield than the opposition isn't quite as important as people think.
Most likely, a mixture of the two.
This tells me one of two things. Our midfield options are better than people think. Having a stronger central midfield than the opposition isn't quite as important as people think.
Most likely, a mixture of the two.
It's just a religion for some, Pogue. It's not even about the actual quality of the midfield, it's about that one signing, the midfield messiah.
I think we've had this debate before but for me, in the past it's been more so due to our attack and defense than midfield. The midfield was just sort of ... there, doing it's job without ever really being a dominant force for us, like the other areas.
This year has been a little different because Carrick has been absolutely majestic, but there's times I've looked at us and thought "we'd be fecked without him".
And they look so much more cohesive. At times this season we have looked like a set of very talented individuals playing together for the first time. There's been a real lack of a consistent tactical identity, and in defensive situations the team looks very 'uncoached'.
I'm holding out for that messiah myself, as it happens. Thought we needed another body in midfield last summer and even more convinced we do now.
Just get a bit irritated at the constant implications that we've somehow won all these trophies with a central midfield that isn't even fit for purpose.
We'd definitely be fecked without him, but the priority shouldn't be finding a partner for Carrick (we have a bunch of players who do that well) but finding someone to provide cover for him should he ever actually get injured. I've been banging that drum for a good three years now, but what can you do.
I think we need a bit of both. As I said earlier, Cabaye would be great.
Well in the league, a midfield isn't that important. Strikers and defenders win you the league, and having a great midfield just helps that. It doesn't hinder the league campaign as much as some on here would lead you to believe. Considering ~70% of our league games are against poor to average teams, we don't need a top midfield to beat them.
However, against the bigger teams in the league and especially in Europe, a quality midfield is vital. Barca, Bayern, Madrid, and arguably Dortmund have a better midfield than us, and that is why they are where they are. If we want to win the CL in the next few years, we need someone to go alongside Carrick. If we don't, the only way we'll win is by a slice of luck akin to Chelsea.
Really? I don't see him as being any better than Cleverley could easily be in the near-future, and he's not really suited to provide cover for Carrick. Of the names I've seen banded about I'd take Matic as the cover/long-term replacement option, or Strootman as a straight into the first team signing.
Absolutely. Fergie would agree with this too - and he seems to know a thing or two about this football lark.
That said it obviously couldn't hurt to have a Schweinsteiger here - or even better a Martinez there. We would be more dangerous if we could partner Carrick with an absolute top-notch character. But right now the most important thing for us is to sort out our...erm wider issues: We need first rate wingers - that really is alpha and omega for us. And we really, really should get in some kind of back-up for Carrick. He's not made of steel - he could get injured.
Yep, that's very important, but cover for Carrick will still leave our midfield weaker than the other top teams in Europe, which has to be the benchmark. It's not about buying a superstar, IMO, more about bringing in players who can improve the quality while also contributing on a regular basis (which we currently have a problem with). That's why, if we were getting rid of Anderson, for example, I wouldn't mind us trying to bring in someone like Song. He's not top, top class, but he's better than what we have in many cases. Even small-ish improvements like that would make a difference.
Ideally we need someone who can do both tbh if we want one player. Otherwise we can buy a younger player who can cover for Carrick.
Completely agree with what Pogue is saying in this thread for the whole of this page, btw.
Follow the Bayern blueprint and well buy the best of British in the league.....Wilshere and Bale. That'll tide them over nicely.
Out.
Nani
Anderson
In
Wilshere
Bale
Sorted.
Realistically, it's not as simple as that though.
The "Wilshere bandwagon" is a bit weird, considering he looks incapable of completing a season without picking up a serious injury.
The same could be said of many of Britain's top players in their teens/early 20s - the likes of Giggs, Gerrard, Owen and (to an extent) Rooney. We'd still have signed every one of them if given the chance. No reason to assume Wilshere won't grow out of it as it's not reccurring muscle injuries or the like.